The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Eliza Madrigal: Morning :)I didn't mean to leave this up all week. Would you like me to take it down?
Bleu Oleander: no I love this one
Eliza Madrigal: :) Me too. Okay, I'll wait until the end
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: we've had so much rain this week and our garden ALMOST looks as green :)
Eliza Madrigal: sounds really nice
Eliza Madrigal: cooling temps?
Bleu Oleander: yes amazing for august
Bleu Oleander: a fluke
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I love that word
Bleu Oleander: yes a fun one
Bleu Oleander: don't hear it so much
Eliza Madrigal: Not much at all... wonder if it is considered antiquated
Bleu Oleander: is there an antiquated dictionary?
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Eliza Madrigal: Well, my 22 year old daughter uses terms ... "such like" for instance, that always make me smile, even though I use them too
Bleu Oleander: generational words maybe
Eliza Madrigal: maybe
Bleu Oleander: anything new happening here this week of interest?
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't signed on since Monday I think
Bleu Oleander: emails have turned to tech issues
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, wait... i did attend Dream Workshop, which was lovely
Bleu Oleander: how is that going?
Eliza Madrigal: yes it seems that way (emails)
Bleu Oleander: I should sit in on that one of these days
Eliza Madrigal: This week's was very hm... harmonious... as Maxine said, "a thread turning into a braid"
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't attended many over the last year or so
Bleu Oleander: nice that she still does them
Eliza Madrigal: it is... she has such a poetic, gentle mind
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: 'has' isn't the right word but you know what I mean
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: What is of interest in your other worlds Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: hmmm so much ...
Bleu Oleander: had a very interesting salon on knowing animals through art
Bleu Oleander: how art can help us begin to know the minds of animals
Bleu Oleander: philosophy and aesthetics
Eliza Madrigal: listening :)
Eliza Madrigal: how they're drawn by life?
Bleu Oleander: used Damien Hirst as an example
Eliza Madrigal: they're/we're
Bleu Oleander: looking for ways to interact through art
Bleu Oleander: http://www.public.asu.edu/~rbroglio/
Bleu Oleander: he has a great book on the subject
Eliza Madrigal clicks
Bleu Oleander: animal phenomenology :)
Eliza Madrigal: ooooooh dots connecting....
Eliza Madrigal: "Art remains at the service of the human even as it tries to undo previous definitions of humanism to arrive at a "becoming" that is in affinity with animals. My own project takes a tangential approach to that of Steve Baker's exemplary Postmodern Animal. I am interested in the way art reveals the worlds of animals as a necessary lacuna in human knowledge. That is, art reveals the inability to articulate the world of the animal."
Eliza Madrigal: Fascinating
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: so something similar can be said of humans and knowing other minds as well
Bleu Oleander: he describes it better than I can :)
Eliza Madrigal: you describe it well also
Bleu Oleander: coming up we have one on Ovid, one on ancient Egypt and one on Language and reality
Bleu Oleander: so fun stuff this summer
Bleu Oleander: takes our minds off the heat LOL
Eliza Madrigal: no kidding
Eliza Madrigal: the heat really does affect everything
Bleu Oleander: can for sure
Eliza Madrigal: here we have been in the 90s F, with high humidity
Eliza Madrigal: some mornings I go out at 6am to drive my son, and not a single leaf is moving on a tree
Bleu Oleander: humidity has been high here as well
Bleu Oleander: know that!
Bleu Oleander: I just read this: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/chapter-one
Eliza Madrigal: August is a restless month
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh yes I read this!
Eliza Madrigal: loved it
Bleu Oleander: will probably read his book
Eliza Madrigal: I think I will also
Eliza Madrigal: I've actually always enjoyed reading/listening to him
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and of course I appreciate his intellectual honesty
Eliza Madrigal: at least trying to look at phenomena of spirituality objectively
Bleu Oleander: yes it's not like he just talks off the top of his head!
Bleu Oleander: I still don't really know if I've heard a good definition of what is meant by "spirituality" ... perhaps its different for everyone
Eliza Madrigal nods... that's what I heard in this first chapter that I really liked... his grappling with that question
Bleu Oleander: a feeling of transcendence perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: yes or even a practice of
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: many contemplative teachers have tried to drop the word 'spirituality' over the last few years
Bleu Oleander: I don't really equate mindfulness with spirituality, at least not yet
Eliza Madrigal: I can understand that... I think I may agree yet probably from opposite direction
Bleu Oleander: how so?
Eliza Madrigal: I think mindfulness is sometimes a way for materialists to be spiritual without admitting to it or entangling with spiritual ideas
Eliza Madrigal: not always...
Eliza Madrigal: and objectively it is useful on its own
Bleu Oleander: can materialists be spiritual?
Eliza Madrigal: but I've often had that thought when reading some blogs or philosophy articles that aimed at denigrating spiritual practice in some way
Eliza Madrigal: As you said, spiritual is different for all of us
Bleu Oleander: if by spiritual you mean experiencing transcendence then materialists can definitely do that, can't they?
Eliza Madrigal: sure... materialism is a philosophy... transcendence, to my thinking, isn't excluded from anyone
Eliza Madrigal: I think maybe 'spiritual materialists' are the ones who back themselves into a corner
Bleu Oleander: how so?
Eliza Madrigal: when spirituality becomes this packaged thing or formula, I have just seen in my own life that when I try to jump into a 'movement' or some particular stream, it deadens my own practice
Eliza Madrigal: if I close off
Eliza Madrigal: and it is so sneaky
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: "packaged thing or formula" ... how I think of organized religion
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal nods...
Bleu Oleander: cuts off the oxygen :)
Eliza Madrigal: YES, perfect analogy
Eliza Madrigal: there are parallels even outside of philosophical-religious arenas
Eliza Madrigal: as when people fall in love and 'build a life' together and jump into the accepted norms for what that might mean
Eliza Madrigal: and lose their exploration of one another in the process
Bleu Oleander: I'm sure that can happen ... I didn't get the memo on that ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: there are better and worse balances
Eliza Madrigal: I happen to have an unfortunate encyclopedia of knowledge
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: but what is interesting to me is that it is the same basic pull
Bleu Oleander: yes ... ?
Eliza Madrigal: toward an idea of closure... learning something as in not actively unknowing it anymore
Bleu Oleander: learning is open-ended for me
Bleu Oleander: just gathering as much as I can while realizing i'll only ever scratch the surface
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes that's beautiful... the image in my mind is of spreading moss
Eliza Madrigal: (influenced by our surround)
Bleu Oleander: yes nice!
Bleu Oleander: as the mind widens, self steps back ... perhaps that's what is meant by "no self" ?
Eliza Madrigal: "steps back" ... nice, too
Bleu Oleander: mind travels too fast for self to keep up :)
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: No Self is actually a little misleading I think, as a term
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: because it is just one side of the coin
Eliza Madrigal: no self, as in recognition of the illusion of self, but also, there is recognition that collective is also a concept
Eliza Madrigal: usually the mind bats back n forth... "no self must mean a philosophy of switching from individual to collective..." but I really love that Bleu.... stepping back
Eliza Madrigal: will have to muse a while :)
Bleu Oleander: for me it seems a balance of self taking a kind of middle seat ... like Goldilocks ... not too weak, not too strong .. just right :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: akin to middle way perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: an idea I still wrestle with, because I can't find the juice there sometimes
Bleu Oleander: self as I understand it is not an illusion, its a process of differentiation from other
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal nods... good clarification... 'fixed' or enduring, was missing
Bleu Oleander: even the small nemotode worm with it 300 some neurons has one that is for its boundary from others
Bleu Oleander: not fixed at all
Bleu Oleander: changing all the time
Eliza Madrigal: yes... I think that's missing from the west's digestion of eastern thought often... that no self gets translated as a demonization of self
Eliza Madrigal: I was horribly shy as a child, so am particularly interested in people who lack self-consciousness in ways that allow them to explore passionately and expressively
Bleu Oleander: I don't really sense that these days, most I talk to have the sense of self that I just expressed
Bleu Oleander: for me I don't find the east west conversation that helpful
Bleu Oleander: I think true more in the past
Eliza Madrigal: it may be a particularly spiritual community conversation
Bleu Oleander: and I don't know why that would be
Eliza Madrigal: because in the 60s especially there came many translations and a new wave of people in the west studying eastern philosophy... and for many it happened in a certain way
Eliza Madrigal: the resources are far more vast now
Eliza Madrigal: and throw more into question for people who have been in that stream
Bleu Oleander: what are some truths we can all glean from eastern thought ... just a question to ponder, not meant for you to answer :)
Bleu Oleander: I would love to discuss that in emails or here
Eliza Madrigal: might be interesting indeed
Bleu Oleander: what can become universal from eastern thought?
Bleu Oleander: for me the 4 noble truths cannot
Bleu Oleander: would love to hear others ideas though
Eliza Madrigal: universal is a topic all its own :)
Bleu Oleander: would also like to know what eastern thought has to add to our understanding of the mind
Bleu Oleander: I hope Sam's book goes into some of that
Eliza Madrigal: 'our' as in science's
Eliza Madrigal: ?
Eliza Madrigal: It seems to already
Bleu Oleander: "our" as in contemporary humans
Eliza Madrigal: Ah
Eliza Madrigal: I think he's an interesting writer because he also doesn't shy away from topics of the day...not that I always agree with him but at least he attempts to integrate learning into historical narratives
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: I don't like that he preferences Buddhism over Christianity, Judaism, Islam ... for me there are helpful ideas to take from all ways of being
Bleu Oleander: and much benefit from studying all
Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly, like some others he sometimes has a caricature of religions imo
Bleu Oleander: agree that
Eliza Madrigal: OK well, I wasn't sure whether to have guardian session today but couldn't think of any topics...
Bleu Oleander: I have to add literature to that list also :)
Bleu Oleander: oh ok
Bleu Oleander: wasn't sure if there was one
Bleu Oleander: but maybe next week?
Eliza Madrigal: was supposed to be last week, so I just let that stand as the schedule
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bleu Oleander: ok sounds good
Bleu Oleander: ah back to reality
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Bleu Oleander: LOL
Eliza Madrigal: you said it
Eliza Madrigal: lollol
Bleu Oleander: hehehe
Bleu Oleander: thanks for coming
Eliza Madrigal: thanks so much Bleu
Bleu Oleander: and as always ... a great conversation
Eliza Madrigal: agreed... morning stretch
Bleu Oleander: take care
Eliza Madrigal: bfn
Bleu Oleander: byee
Eliza Madrigal: <3