2015.06.26 13:00 - Equal Dignity and Amazing Grace

The Guardian for this meeting was Yaku...

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce
Yakuzza Lethecus: long time no see
Bruce Mowbray: I would say so! SO GOOD to see you again, Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: i hope you are doing fine
Bruce Mowbray: I am excellently well, thank you.
Bruce Mowbray: and you?
Bruce Mowbray: We have a thunderstorm here right now, so my connection might be faulty . . . .
Yakuzza Lethecus: well i can´t complain
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Good.
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah as long as we don´t use voice
Yakuzza Lethecus: chat should always be fine
Bruce Mowbray: I take that to mean: You might be able to complain but it wouldn't do much good, so no need to.
Bruce Mowbray: :)

Bruce Mowbray: America has gone through three major transitions this week (and I'm celebrating all three of them.)
Bruce Mowbray: In every one of them, I didn't think I'd live to see it.
Yakuzza Lethecus: well gay marriage i noticed
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that was today.
Yakuzza Lethecus: obamacare
Bruce Mowbray: and earlier in the week, Obamacare.
Yakuzza Lethecus: 2:0 for it
Bruce Mowbray: Yes.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Supreme Court ruling.
Yakuzza Lethecus: don´t getting to the third
Bruce Mowbray: and the third is that several southern states have decided to take down their Confederate flags.
Bruce Mowbray: and Wal-Mart no longer sells those flags.
Yakuzza Lethecus: gosh, not sure thats a good thing
Bruce Mowbray: YES!
Bruce Mowbray: My neighbors display Confederate flags on a regular basis.
Yakuzza Lethecus: as a european i always smiled about that and never took it seriously
Bruce Mowbray: (which they are free to do, of course.)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i thought it was just part of a different culture
Bruce Mowbray: OHHHH. THEY take it very SERIOUSLY.
Yakuzza Lethecus: more regional culture loss :P
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, but also symbolic of slavery and racist ancestry.

Bruce Mowbray: I feel we may have "moved on" this week, and surely hope so.
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, you are propably right, but i always thought about that as history, was that an action and attempt of an statement after the racist offenses ?
Bruce Mowbray: I suppose that it meant different things to different people.
Bruce Mowbray: But, I have always thought of the Confederate flag
Bruce Mowbray: as symbolizing a sour history.
Bruce Mowbray: and one that I do NOT want to return to.
Bruce Mowbray: Actually, I have ancestors only two generations back who burned crosses on their farms -- demonstrating their hatred of black people. I am NOT proud of that.
Bruce Mowbray: I have seen photographs of them doing it.
Yakuzza Lethecus: interesting history, as such, not a good one tho
Bruce Mowbray: I think that is illegal now, in this state, anyway.

Bruce Mowbray: MAYBE we are FINALLY growing up, but I'm not at all sure of that.
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s tricky
Yakuzza Lethecus: where do we start where do we end

Bruce Mowbray: NONE of the Republican Presidential candidates (to my knowledge) approve of the Supreme Court's ruling on Obamacare or on Gay Marriage.)
Yakuzza Lethecus: do we open borders and let everyone who wants to come to europe or america come in ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: we judge by birthplace who gets what
Bruce Mowbray: sooooooooo... I'm looking forward to watching the news on TV tonight... to see them get angry! Ha Ha.
Bruce Mowbray: WHAT a motley crew they are -- all fourteen of them!
Bruce Mowbray: (with more to come!)

Bruce Mowbray: America is an adolescent nation....
Yakuzza Lethecus: well in a way germany is younger :P
Bruce Mowbray: (and our stupidity is killing us....)
Yakuzza Lethecus: germany formed in the 19th century
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, but we have never really "
Bruce Mowbray: come together...."
Bruce Mowbray: as one nation.
Bruce Mowbray: although our laws would indicate that we have.
Bruce Mowbray: Still, states (50 of them) have a lot of individual power....
Yakuzza Lethecus: there has to be a little competition between states and different viewpoints, i think that´s healty, not good for gay couples but it´s a problematic thing sometimes
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I totally agree with you that some things ought to be decided on a state level.
Bruce Mowbray: But NOT basic rights.
Bruce Mowbray: It is STILL possible to fire someone from his/her job in Ohio merely because she "presents herself" as being gay. THAT is not right.
Bruce Mowbray: Also, to expell her from her place of residence.
Bruce Mowbray: THAT is still true in Ohio.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: The so-called "religious freedom laws" in several states are designed to keep those things in effect -- refusing to serve people, or to employ them, or to rent to them, merely because they appear to be gay.
Bruce Mowbray: THAT is NOT the "American Way," as far as I am concerned.
Bruce Mowbray: It is simple bigotry....
Yakuzza Lethecus: well not the way how you are imagining it anyway, it was the american and european way
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I understand that Europe also has these issues.
Bruce Mowbray: see it in the news all the time (I get my news from the BBC, mostly).
Yakuzza Lethecus: last was ireland that legalized marriages i think
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I saw that!
Bruce Mowbray: WHAT a surprise!

Bruce Mowbray: Slight change of subject: I have not come to this sessions for many weeks. Is this your regular session, Yaku?
Yakuzza Lethecus: sure
Yakuzza Lethecus: it is for many years
Bruce Mowbray: kk. I will try to remember that.
Bruce Mowbray: So, it is maybe about 9:30 p.m. where you are?
Bruce Mowbray: (only 4:36 here.)
Yakuzza Lethecus: 10:36 pm
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh!
Bruce Mowbray: Then it is past your bedtime!
Bruce Mowbray: (or past mine!) ha ha.
Yakuzza Lethecus: my usual, yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: still a bit light
Bruce Mowbray: are you a night owl?
Yakuzza Lethecus: during the summer
Yakuzza Lethecus: nah

Bruce Mowbray: Bleu!
Bleu Oleander: hiya
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bleu
Yakuzza Lethecus: we just had the subjects of ,,gay marriage, obamacare and the third which i just forgot again"
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: The third was the lowering of Confederate flags in the south.
Bruce Mowbray: and Wal-Mart's refusing to sell them any more.
Bleu Oleander: all good things imho
Bruce Mowbray: a major cultural shift, I would think.
Bruce Mowbray: YESSSSS!
Bleu Oleander: what do you all think?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think obamacare is the best of the three
Bruce Mowbray: YAYYY!
Bleu Oleander: I think they're all long overdue :)
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that the Supreme Court ruling on gayt marriage... and the lowering of Confederate flags is almost as good as the healthcare.

Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t mind gay couples, but in a way it´s tricky
Bruce Mowbray: YEEESSSSS, Bleu!
Bruce Mowbray: SOOOO overdue!
Bleu Oleander: why tricky?
Bruce Mowbray: What's tricky about it, Yaku?
Bruce Mowbray: (if you don't mind my asking).
Yakuzza Lethecus: hard to say, just feeling a bit strange about it, my best friend in germany is propably gay and i have no issues at all with him
Bruce Mowbray: Of course.
Yakuzza Lethecus: but classical family picture is hanging somewhere in the back of the head
Bruce Mowbray: Marriage has evolved throughout the centures, and this is one more evolution... for people who love each other and want to be married (which I do NOT!) ha ha.
Bleu Oleander: I don't think the "classical" family picture exists anymore tho
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, my parents are divorced too :)
Bruce Mowbray: except in Norman Rockwell paintings, Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: lots of combos these days
Bruce Mowbray: My parents stuck it out for over thirty years..... even though I think they probably despised each other.
Bruce Mowbray: (My dad finally died. . . . freeing my mother to be herself....)

Bleu Oleander: I loved what Kennedy had to say: No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies the highest ideals of love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice, and family. In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than once they were. As some of the petitioners in these cases demonstrate, marriage embodies a love that may endure even past death. It would misunderstand these men and women to say they disrespect the idea of marriage. Their plea is that they do respect it, respect it so deeply that they seek to find its fulfillment for themselves. Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilization’s oldest institutions. They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The Constitution grants them that right.

Bruce Mowbray: (That is a quote from one of the nine Supreme Court justices, Yaku.)
Bruce Mowbray: Justice Kennedy.

--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: well written
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Frankly, marriage never suited me.... but that's probably because I didn't invest as much as Justice Kennedy does in the institution.)
Bruce Mowbray: I do respect the institution, however, for those who want to be in it.
Bleu Oleander: well and that's up to individuals to invest in their own marriages
Bleu Oleander: but we shouldn't deny others their happiness

Bruce Mowbray: [@ Yaku: whenever a Supreme Court justice writes an "opinion" like that, it can be used in future generations (future court cases) to make arguments...]
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, in germany tax benefits
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, also in America.
Bleu Oleander: yes tax benefits ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: lots of heterosexural couples marry in gemany for that as a strong incentive
Bleu Oleander: always the money!!!
Yakuzza Lethecus: in sweden many more just live together
Yakuzza Lethecus: even got a legal ,,sambo" status
Bruce Mowbray: and insurance benefits, and hospital privileges, and so many other things that come along with being married.
Bruce Mowbray: I feel as if I have lived through a cultural revolution this week.
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I am eager to watch the PBS Newshour tonight... to see the coverage of the whole week.

Bleu Oleander: it takes a lot of work to move hearts and minds!
Bruce Mowbray: For sure!
Bruce Mowbray: Did you watch Obama's eulogy in Charleston, Bleu?
Bruce Mowbray: (I watched it live.)
Bleu Oleander: no not yet
Bleu Oleander: will listen online
Bruce Mowbray: [@ Yaku -- I'm talking about the funeral for Rev. Pinckney -- one of the nine people murdered last week in the African Methodist Church.]
Bruce Mowbray: kk, it is moving.
Bleu Oleander: I will look it up
Bruce Mowbray: (HE CAN SING!!!)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx
Bruce Mowbray wonders if such discussions appear to be hanging out dirty linen to folks not from the USA.
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s easier to prohibit flags or get free publicity through banning a product then to bring one or two cops to court
Bruce Mowbray thinks that maybe other cultures are not nearly as "politicised" as the United States is.

Bleu Oleander: listening now ... he can sing!
Bruce Mowbray: YES!
Bruce Mowbray: AMAZING GRACE!
Bruce Mowbray: Do you have a link there, Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: sure one sec
Bruce Mowbray: kk, ty.
Bleu Oleander: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tho...id=ansnewsap11
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks.
Bleu Oleander: yw!
Bleu Oleander: well gtg
Bleu Oleander: have a nice weekend
Bleu Oleander: take care
Bruce Mowbray: me too.
Bruce Mowbray: TY, Bleu and Yaku!
Bleu Oleander: byeeee
Bruce Mowbray: Have a good night, Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night