2016.10.11 13:00 - Siddhartha Together

The Guardian for this meeting was Mick! 

Mickorod Renard: Hi tura
Tura Brezoianu: hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: nice to see you
Mickorod Renard: I have no idea if anyone else will turn up
Tura Brezoianu: I can see Eliza nearby
Mickorod Renard: yes, and Bruce is online somewhere, but I have no idea if they will come along
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mick and Tura!
Tura Brezoianu: hi Bruce
Mickorod Renard: Hiya, how are you these days?
Bruce Mowbray: Good now that I've finally figured out what I was doing wrong in programming a Java program - that I've wasted most of the day on.
Bruce Mowbray: How are you?
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi guys!
Mickorod Renard: I am good thanks, yes that java stuff can be troublesome
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza
Mickorod Renard: well, I didnt expect anyone to turn up
Bruce Mowbray: well, I forget about global and local variables and then get "null pointer" errors. So, I'm learning, slowly but surely.
Eliza Madrigal: pretty outfit Tura
Eliza Madrigal: :) Mick
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Visitor.
Visitor Malheur: hello
Mickorod Renard: I acan't say i know anything about it ..I am amazed you can make any sense of it..he he
Mickorod Renard: Hi Visitor
Bruce Mowbray: I only make the barest sort of sense... Sort of like life, sometimes.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce Mowbray: You're welcome to join us, Visitor.
Visitor Malheur: what are you talking about?
Mickorod Renard: well, re this session..I did prep something if anyone is interested
Bruce Mowbray: Not sure yet, but we'll have a topic very soon.
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Mick.

Siddhartha Intro

Mickorod Renard: we are likely to do a piece on siddhartha
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh!
Mickorod Renard: on the back of whjat was a session for Mindfulness
Bruce Mowbray: Herman Hesse's book, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: Well, thats something I am not so sure about
Bruce Mowbray: kk, np.
Mickorod Renard: as Siddhartha was supposed to be the Buddha before he became the buddha
Mickorod Renard: In ancient texts
Mickorod Renard: What I have picked up on is trying to understand the basics
Bruce Mowbray nods, listens.
Mickorod Renard: as we did tsk and then there iwas Ewans Mindfulness I saw a sort of link
Mickorod Renard: I have been looking at a web site about Siddhartha for kids
Mickorod Renard: And thought it was simple enough for me to understand
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: So today i was going to paste a cut version from the net
Mickorod Renard: shall we do it?
Eliza Madrigal: Sounds great :)
Bruce Mowbray: Fine with me.... Will there be breaks for discussion....?
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen.
Mickorod Renard: It shouldnt take long to read, then we can chat afterwards
Zen Arado: Hi all
Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen
Bruce Mowbray listens, reads...
Eliza Madrigal waves to Zen
Visitor Malheur: hi Zen
Mickorod Renard: ok,,here goes, I will paste in bits
Bruce Mowbray makes note to read in bits.

 

Today's Reading

Mickorod Renard: I have copied and altered /cut sections out of this Siddhathra story to help us understand the basics about Mindfulness. It comes from a website that can be reached via this link http://www.bodhitales.org/a-first-le...ndfulness.phpI

Mickorod Renard: Siddhartha rose from his seat under the pippala tree. He felt a deep inner peace that made everything around him seem so light and open. He had seen the true face of his mind at dawn. He had realized enlightened mind. Nirvana was within his reach

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: “I have found freedom for myself. I wish I could show others how to achieve this liberation of mind. I must think of an easy and practical way that people can follow step by step. “Good morning,” Svasti was walking towards Siddhartha and greeted him from a distance.

Bruce Mowbray: Try this one:
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.bodhitales.org/a-first-le...indfulness.php

Mickorod Renard: “You look different. You look so relaxed. You look so gentle, so calm “ Svasti said “Oh, Svasti, I am very happy because last night I found the answer that I’ve been looking for so long. Sujata said . “Please, could you explain a little about what you have discovered…a part that you think I would be able to understand?”

Mickorod Renard: Siddhartha smiled and nodded. Do you think that you could come again this afternoon with your friends? I’d like to speak to all of you together. Svasti is going to bring his sisters and friends.” That afternoon, many children came with Svasti and Sujata to see Siddhartha. They gathered around the pippala tree where Siddhartha sat.
Mickorod Renard: Sujata got up and offered a big basket of tangerines to Siddhartha. “These are just freshly picked from the orchard.” Siddhartha smiled and took over the basket. One by one he passed out the tangerines to the children. “I am very happy to see all of you here today. I am very grateful to all of you who come to see me and offer me your wonderful company.

Mickorod Renard: “Today, I’d like to share with you something I’ve learnt. I want to show you something that already belongs to you. It is your very own awareness, your own knowing. It is such a precious part of you but it often goes unnoticed. What do I mean by that? When you are thinking, are you aware that you are thinking? When you are speaking, are you aware that you are speaking? When you are doing something, are you aware that you are doing something? To be aware of what you are engaged in is to be mindful of your thoughts, of your speech, and of your actions.

Mickorod Renard: “As you listen, you are paying attention to my words. Now I shift your attention to the tangerine that you are holding in your hand. Let us be aware of the tangerine in our hands. Let us be mindful of the tangerine. We look at it. We see its roundness. We see its bright orange. We feel it in our hand. We feel its waxed and rough skin.

Mickorod Renard: “When we eat a tangerine, we first peel off its skin. We are mindful as we peel the skin. We are mindful of our fingers feeling the moisture from within the tangerine. We are mindful of its distinctly fragrant smell. After the skin has been peeled, we see its sections. We are mindful of its sections. We are mindful when we break up the sections

Mickorod Renard: We are mindful as we place a section in our mouths. We are mindful of the tangerine section in our mouths. We are mindful as we bite into it. We are mindful as the juice squishes out and fills our mouth. We are mindful of its taste. We are mindful of its fragrance. We are mindful of its texture. We are mindful as we chew. We are mindful as we swallow. And we continue this mindfulness practice as we eat the tangerine.

Mickorod Renard: Are we all up to speed?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray nods.

Mickorod Renard: “Can someone think of some benefits of being mindful?” Svasti said, “Mindfulness keeps my attention on my water buffaloes.”
Mickorod Renard: “Very good. Mindfulness keeps our attention in the moment. This means that we are not thinking about the past as in, “…I would have caught that fish had I not slipped.” Neither are we pondering about the future as in, “…will I be invited to my friend’s party?” The past has passed, and we cannot go back nor do anything about it. The future is yet to come. It is very uncertain, governed by all kinds of conditions that are not within our control or within our knowing.

Mickorod Renard: herefore, what is the sense in worrying over it now? If we really care about the future, we should look at what we are doing now. What we put in now we will reap its results later. The present moment is precious to us because life is made up of these precious moments. We try to be mindful in every moment. ”

Mickorod Renard: “My young friends, shall we now eat the tangerine in mindfulness?” Siddhartha then looked at the tangerine in his hand. He started to peel its skin. All the children followed his example. A gentle quietness settled around the pippala tree. When everyone was finished eating. Siddhartha looked at the children and smiled.
Mickorod Renard: One girl said, “I couldn’t keep up with the mindfulness most of the time. Why is that? I kept thinking of all sorts of things…” “Me too. I have to stop myself from thinking about what I would get for my birthday tomorrow.” “I was still feeling mad that my mother wouldn't let me wear my new dress today.” The children were all nodding their heads in agreement as each one of them took turns to express the feelings and thoughts that came up.

Mickorod Renard: “Excellent, that is exactly what I wanted you to see.” said Siddhartha. “Right now your mind is like that. You should not expect otherwise. You cannot force your mind to stay at one place anyway even if you try. It is your mindfulness that allows you to see that your mind has wandered off. When you are aware of being distracted, simply bring your attention back gently to the task at hand.

Mickorod Renard: “My young friends, it is very important not to deliberately hold your mindfulness by force. That is not the point. You would only be creating unnecessary pressure. That is harmful. Right now, you cannot keep your mindfulness for very long. That is all right. That is quite natural. Like anything else that we learn to do, we go about it a little bit at a time. With mindfulness, it’s the same. You try to be mindful whenever you can, and in time, your mindfulness will be developed into your habit of mind.”

Mickorod Renard: last bit coming
Bruce Mowbray: :)

Mickorod Renard: “When mindfulness is stable and natural, it will guard your mind against negative thoughts such as fear, hopelessness, despair, anger, greed, jealousy. You will see them clearly like you see a bird in the sky. When you can catch these negative thinking of the mind, you can calmly and gently let them go. They will not affect you as much. As a result, you will not act them out. You will not act out of anger. You will not act out of jealousy. You will not act out of fear. In this way, you will avoid acting negatively and the suffering that comes with it. You will get along better with others. This is just one method that I’ve learnt to avert suffering.

Discussion

Mickorod Renard: I think that leaves about half the session for discussion
Eliza Madrigal: Perfect, thank you
Mickorod Renard: I myself thought how the tangerines were like phenemology too
Zen Arado: great Mick !
Mickorod Renard: so in this peice is tsk mindfulness and phenemology
Mickorod Renard: thanks Zen
Eliza Madrigal: agreed, Mick
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Eliza Madrigal: and I can see why you would choose it to read to your grand daugther
Mickorod Renard: Do you think this was too simple..or maybe interesting to remind ourselves that we even over complicate what we practice?
Bruce Mowbray: I need simple, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: me too
Bruce Mowbray: :)

--BELL--

Zen Arado: simple is good
Mickorod Renard: I didnt like copying so much even though I cut lots..but like in a bible reading you cant rewrite the stories
Eliza Madrigal: Pasting it that way gave time to relax into it
Eliza Madrigal: to be here
Bruce Mowbray: Me too, Eliza.
Zen Arado: I seem to be able to conceltrate very well now when I work at something
Zen Arado: but I think that is just from studying things for so long
Mickorod Renard: yes, the original had more peripheral things going on,,nicer,,but i needed to cut it
Zen Arado: not sure if meditation has improved me in that regard
Zen Arado: anyone else?
Mickorod Renard: yes Zen..me too, it could be age
Eliza Madrigal: what is practice now, Zen?
Mickorod Renard: but i am sure the whole pab thing has been a help
Zen Arado: when I work at music I sometimes have to think for a moment what day it is if I pause
Zen Arado: I get lost in it
Zen Arado: I do be more mindful now
Zen Arado: perhaps we don't notice how much we have chnged fom meditation practice?
Mickorod Renard: is that not the way tho..to be engaged in what you are doing rather than distracted
Zen Arado: I still meditate each daay
Bruce Mowbray ponders "getting lost in the present"....
Zen Arado: but fall asleep a lot :(
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray: I don't mean to complicate matters, but might "mindfulness" (as described in the story) also be a present awareness of several things related to eating the tangerine? -- Several things going on while one is eating the tangerine?
Eliza Madrigal: Can you unpack your question a little Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Sure, I'll try.
Bruce Mowbray: Right now, in RL, I am reading, hearing the water fountain, conscious of something else that's happening around me....
Bruce Mowbray: and I sort of "hold" all of these at the same time...
Bruce Mowbray: or am I deluding myself?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh I see! Neat question
Zen Arado: so is there a difference between homing in on one thing rather than awareness of all that's going on around us?

Mickorod Renard: no you are not deluding yourself Bruce..and I too sense the same
Bruce Mowbray: I find that I can do this "holding" better if I also am centered in the breath....
Zen Arado: concentration = mindfulness?
Bruce Mowbray: The breath (or rather, my returning to it as a "center"), seems to make the larger holding possible.
Eliza Madrigal: Stillness
Bruce Mowbray: Not for me, Zen.
Zen Arado: but we avoid distractions?
Bruce Mowbray: I would call it something like "a gentle riding on the breath" than 'concentration... and the gentler the ride, the better.
Zen Arado: remembers we can only concentrate on one thing at a time
Mickorod Renard: I suppose there is a level of Focal distance depending on the complexity...yes, ...how much we can hold without distraction
Zen Arado: neuroscietists say
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees.... but the concentration is almost so gentle that it's indiscernible.
Bruce Mowbray: "Stillness" -- catches it well.
Zen Arado: focus or soft focus?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, very soft focus. I like that.
Eliza Madrigal: When I was taught meditation, I was taught shamatha as a foundation, and then vipassana, which is what I've called 'when the plane takes off'... the insight flow or enhanced concentratedness.... but once one begins to have that experience more, or to dwell there for longer periods, it is easy to kind of 'seek' it, and lose both
Zen Arado: like shikantaze vs focus on somthing in meditation
Zen Arado: I always preferred the open awareness of Shikantaza
Eliza Madrigal: so I'm back to basic stillness, have gone from thinking I was a good horse, to now knowing I'm the worst ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)

Zen Arado: I forget what Vipassana is
Zen Arado: so many categories
Eliza Madrigal: insight meditation... I think it is closer to transcendental....
Bruce Mowbray: Vipassana is sort of being a witness to whatever rises.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: and letting all happen without reaction or judgment.
Zen Arado: so is Shikantaza
Eliza Madrigal: maybe taught in different ways.... that is what I'd call the first :)
Zen Arado: maybe just Zen term for sam thing
Bruce Mowbray nods, and so is Dzogchen.
Eliza Madrigal: sorry... could take the session to compare notes probably :)
Eliza Madrigal: tech notes :))

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray wonders how Tura views any of this.
Tura Brezoianu: um...
Mickorod Renard: mmmmm..and I dont meditate at all..but then, if I am doing something like repairing a watch, someone would have to hit me over the head to break my concentration
Zen Arado: I thought there was a differene in mindfulness as taught by the Buddha and present day types?
Tura Brezoianu: there seem to be all these different words for different sorts of meditation, but I've never understood what the differences are
Zen Arado: nods
Zen Arado: whatever works for you?
Mickorod Renard: that is also intriguing for me Zen, why was there any need to change what the Buddha taught?
Zen Arado: ah just dim memory off some article or other Mick
Mickorod Renard: kk
Zen Arado: MBSR was a modern development of J Kabat Zinn
Zen Arado: modified to be easy for non Buddhidts
Zen Arado: mindfulnees based stress reduction
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.mindfullivingprograms.com/whatMBSR.php

Eliza Madrigal: [vipassana] taught as "inquiry" too, which is similar to 'insight' (ie into the nature of reality)... which the text seems to lead to... that with the tangerine there is an openness to sensation and a kind of unending question
Eliza Madrigal clicks to see what MBSR is

Bruce Mowbray: For me, meditation is resting in the questions....
Zen Arado: yes Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: I was chatting to someone the other day, and realized that to some the distancing from reality is their escape...meditation can for them be too much
Zen Arado: and in the problems
Bruce Mowbray: Most of my life, however, has felt like being torn apart by those same questions.
Zen Arado: in the things we don't like..
Bruce Mowbray: Right, Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: that's a good point Mick... popular culture is full of self improvement and sounding as though it is easy
Eliza Madrigal: no after effects or life changes
Zen Arado: instead of running away into distractions
Eliza Madrigal: aside from those you want or ask for
Zen Arado: some wouldn't eve consider it
Zen Arado: maybe it is only for some
Mickorod Renard: but i think in general..running means its never far behind and one day facing and dealing with is the answer
Zen Arado: us bookish intellectual types?
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is indeed possible to run one's whole life :)

Mickorod Renard: well. its coming to an end of the hour..I dont know if anyone is interested in something similar next tuesday?
Zen Arado: yes Eliza
Mickorod Renard: or whether we do something like on Thursdays and drop tuesday
Zen Arado: I'm running out of time :)
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,i feel like that too zen
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Mick! I wanted to say that I liked how he said avert suffering not avoid, at the end of your reading
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Zen
Mickorod Renard: yes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: "Life is short, at the end." -Mickorod Renard
Mickorod Renard: i think the stories are enlightening
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, to Eliza's point - he was saying that the negative emotions (even negativity about negative emotions) can be the cause of suffering.
Zen Arado: yes avert is more like not having to endure unnecessary suffering
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Eliza Madrigal: I pictured something running at one and then sort of turning it around to go back and play lol
Zen Arado: I was just reading King Lear in a course
Eliza Madrigal: but maybe that's too much time with puppy :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen Arado: playful attitude is great
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Mick. Thank you everyone for sharing.
Mickorod Renard: On the website I linked this too are a host of stories
Bruce Mowbray: Need to go work for Hillary now.
Zen Arado: thanks Mick
Eliza Madrigal: :) maybe deflection is a closer word for that than avert
Mickorod Renard: Thanks Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: good luck to us all Bruce

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: (Hillary is down the street from my place right now, with Al Gore)
Mickorod Renard: Thank you all for coming
Eliza Madrigal: Oh....
Eliza Madrigal: Mick do you remember how to post a session?
Mickorod Renard: no
Mickorod Renard: he he
Eliza Madrigal: I can be here today but not sure about next time
Zen Arado: go and cheer for her Eliza :)
Mickorod Renard: I dont even know my login
Tura Brezoianu: thank you Mick for hosting this
Mickorod Renard: my pleasure Tura
Mickorod Renard: I dont know if it is worth posting, its a bit out of sync
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight all
Mickorod Renard: nite Tura
Eliza Madrigal: yes it is worth posting
Eliza Madrigal: Night Tura, Zen
Mickorod Renard: Nite Zen
Zen Arado: yes it is Mick
Zen Arado: nite all
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: we wont get done for plagerism?
Eliza Madrigal: it is all openly on the web
Eliza Madrigal: with permissions in place
Mickorod Renard: on the web yes..I dont know what restrictions
Eliza Madrigal: I think excerpting for online book club is fine....
Mickorod Renard: but it must be like a book club and chatting after about the rad
Mickorod Renard: yes

Eliza Madrigal: I'll post today if you like and then send you info and instructions for next week?
Mickorod Renard: what should i do re posting it
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I didnt know if it was a continuing session
Mickorod Renard: do you think any folk will come?
Eliza Madrigal: yes I do
Eliza Madrigal: give it 3 weeks at least... 4 is better... then decide?
Mickorod Renard: ok,,shall i make it a siddartha session then?
Eliza Madrigal: it is a nice idea
Mickorod Renard: ok,,lots of nice lil stories
Eliza Madrigal: so if you feel comfortable going ahead yay
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I will give it a go
Eliza Madrigal: :) Okay... I'll make sure to send you instructions about that and notices, just in case I'm not home at this time
Mickorod Renard: right, I must go and check on little one
Eliza Madrigal: often I spend the day in the library and can't do SL
Eliza Madrigal: hugs to little one :)
Mickorod Renard: thanks Eliza
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: should be well asleep by now
Eliza Madrigal: Hugs Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hugs to you too, ty
Eliza Madrigal: thanks so much
Mickorod Renard: ok,,off I go,,see ya guys