The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Riddle.
Riddle Sideways: Hey Bruce
Riddle Sideways: Heart Sutra board

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Yep.
Riddle Sideways: have missed the sessions
Bruce Mowbray: We had a fine session on Thursday.
Bruce Mowbray: Don't know whether Eliza has posted it yet.
Riddle Sideways: read the previous one, but not the latest (yet)
Riddle Sideways: wanted to get into it, but RL came up
Bruce Mowbray: My feeling was/is that folks are becoming less intimidated... more willing to share their personal experience of the sutra.
Riddle Sideways: good
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, many wonderful inputs.... different interpretations.
Riddle Sideways: sorry, distracted
Bruce Mowbray: First and foremost, I feel that the sutra is an instruction in mantra meditation.... and sort of a description of it.
Riddle Sideways: and please forgive if nerdy gibberish unix-type stuff gets typed
Bruce Mowbray: Riddle Sideways: 2 keyboards on this desk
Bruce Mowbray: NP!
Bruce Mowbray: I'm also distracted, watching a football game -- also, at the present.
Riddle Sideways: a description to be repeated over and over
Bruce Mowbray: Well, perhaps...
Bruce Mowbray: There's an emphasis on "going beyond" the description, though.
Bruce Mowbray: "Gate"
Bruce Mowbray: double meaning with that one!
Bruce Mowbray: Ohio State 7 Northwestern 0
Bruce Mowbray: Now -- Ohio State 10   J
Riddle Sideways: where is Ohio in national standings?
Bruce Mowbray: The more I "use" it, the more I love this mantra.
 
Bruce Mowbray: ... 6
Bruce Mowbray: We were 2 last week, but lost to Penn State.  Michigan is 2 this week.
Bruce Mowbray: Very young team this year/ mostly freshmen.
Riddle Sideways: Ohio is in "No suffering, no cause or end to suffering"
Bruce Mowbray: FOR SURE!!!!
Bruce Mowbray: Raffi!
Raffila Millgrove: Hi. i am late because i was watching that video.. on Hume that you sent us Bruce. Hi Riddle
Bruce Mowbray moves from horizontal bed to vertical desk in order to type better.
Riddle Sideways: Raf!!!
Riddle Sideways: long time
Bruce Mowbray: I've missed you at our Thursday 1 p.m. sessions, Raffi.
Bruce Mowbray: The Heart Sutra board was set up for those.
Raffila Millgrove: ah well i was at the one... week before last Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: What did you think of the video, Raffi?
Riddle Sideways: just noticed Bruce's T-shirt :O
Raffila Millgrove: I had to stop it to get over here... lol
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksd...quarksdaily%29
Bruce Mowbray: It is 11 minutes long.
Raffila Millgrove: but. i liked it. i forgot how much I used to like Hume.
Riddle Sideways: ty, but saw the URL in email
Riddle Sideways: will watch later
Bruce Mowbray: Me too. I kept identifying him as an empiricist... didn't realize how in tune he was with emotions/feelings.
Raffila Millgrove: I forget a lot of things.. i once studied... but i think.. the..
Bruce Mowbray: He seems to have been an anti-rationalist... in the Age of Reason, yet.
Bruce Mowbray: maybe non-rationalist would be better...
Raffila Millgrove: info.. it's still there.. influencing me.. just forgot why/source
Bruce Mowbray: although he uses reason to come to his conclusions about feelings.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Bruce Mowbray: (Undergrad school seems soooo far away....)
Riddle Sideways: :))
Raffila Millgrove: sometimes i will look in a journal i wrote years ago.. and i find some bit.. about a book i was reading at the time.. and I will think. Ah ha.. that's where I got that idea.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful!
Raffila Millgrove: so i realize i forget the source.. but i remember the .. ideas or info.. from it.
Bruce Mowbray: I underline and make profuse marginal notes when I read.... and it's often a surprise to read the same books decades later and find those things.
Riddle Sideways: ok, another item onto to-do list. look through old notebooks
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Raffila Millgrove: i was brought up to never mark a book.. so .. i have nothing.. in any of mine. i feel like.. it's interesting to see how others have marked their books.
Bruce Mowbray: It's just one thing after another, huh?
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my. I buy books so I can MARK THEM UP!
Bruce Mowbray: but I was also raised not to do that.
Bruce Mowbray: Transgression!
Riddle Sideways: a rebel
Bruce Mowbray: I also love to read books that someone else has marked up.
Raffila Millgrove: yeah i know. i realize.. also how much I am a product of my upbringing.. how i follow dictums that.. weren't mine.. that make no sense maybe.. i but i follow them.. like seriously Rules.
Bruce Mowbray: Doubly interesting, sometimes.
Riddle Sideways: kindle has markup tools
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that everyone who was properly socialized does that, Raffi.... follow the dictums, I mean. Dicta?
Bruce Mowbray: Dictae?  Dicti?
Riddle Sideways: in 5 colors and text additions. by the middle of book often forget what blue underlining meant
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I always mark up my Kindle books as well.
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha :)
Bruce Mowbray loves color coding.
Riddle Sideways: start book with a strict color coding
Riddle Sideways: that fails later
Bruce Mowbray: I taught a few Sunday school lessons on the Gospel of John a few years back and I color-coded the entire gospel.
Raffila Millgrove: haha. how interesting.
Bruce Mowbray: handed those out to the class.
Bruce Mowbray: Red for miracles, etc.  Purple for "sayings," (e.g., "I am the way…") etc….
Raffila Millgrove: that is a sign of a certain type of... personality.
Raffila Millgrove: that color coding.
Bruce Mowbray: Yep.
Riddle Sideways: yep
Raffila Millgrove: i am reading a book about Collaborating.
Bruce Mowbray: a colorful personality?
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Raffi.
Riddle Sideways: ya could say that
Raffila Millgrove: it's fabulous. i wish it were written 30 years ago. written by an old lady... 50 years of her work.
Bruce Mowbray: Please say more about collaborating, Raffi.
Raffila Millgrove: i could have benefited from this a lot.. if i knew it .. then.. but she finally got it together.
Bruce Mowbray: working with others toward a common project or goal?
Raffila Millgrove: and did this book.. and now i cannot profit from it much. but i sure am intrigued/amazed by it.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Raffila Millgrove: it's not about collaborating as much as it is about...
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that our working through TSK and the Heart Sutra are collaborative efforts.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Raffila Millgrove: understanding people.. who think.. differently.
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh!
Raffila Millgrove: and how the way they think.. will influence.. the success of your collaboration.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Raffila Millgrove: you remember, Bruce, how you were taught..
Raffila Millgrove: as a teacher..
Bruce Mowbray ponders "the way that you think...."
Riddle Sideways: ah, the lessons from working on teams of software engineers collaborating on a huge project. exactly like herding cats
Raffila Millgrove: that students.. they each learn differently.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, and I also remember HOW I taught as a teacher.
Raffila Millgrove: yes riddle
Bruce Mowbray: Everyone learns differently, of course.
Raffila Millgrove: but this book is about understanding the different styles of thinking.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
Raffila Millgrove: yes yes.. well it's the same idea.
Bruce Mowbray: Do you have a title for us, Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: the reason they do learn differently.. is because they THINK differently.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Raffila Millgrove: Collaborative Intelligence: Thinking with People who Think Differently by Dawna Markova and Angie McArthur.
Riddle Sideways: lots of those discussion lately, on how people think differently with an election coming up
Bruce Mowbray: I have an ADHD adult neighbor --- who thinks very differently from "normal" folks....  It's fascinating to converse with him.
Bruce Mowbray: TY for that title. I will look it up after this session.
Raffila Millgrove: very good article in New Yorker about a county in West Virginia who will vote for Trump.. and interviews with men.. who do NOT fit.. the pattern .. of poorly educated. one guy, or example,is a college professor. very different way to understand why people will do something.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm always looking for contexts... so I'm probably a "contextual" thinker.
Bruce Mowbray: It's not possible example, to 'understand' this election out of context - and maybe not even then.
Raffila Millgrove: i personally think that the idea that you can change someone's perception with education is very shaky.
Bruce Mowbray: My perceptions were changed through education . . . .
Raffila Millgrove: people are not that ignorant. they make very few decisions.. based on lack of education.
Raffila Millgrove: no i am talking, Bruce.. about global warming for example.
Bruce Mowbray: I felt like I was being thrown up in the air during my freshman year -- and left to my own to land wherever i could.
Bruce Mowbray: kk, I understand.
Raffila Millgrove: i don't mean that way Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: Global warming is a tough nut.
Raffila Millgrove: i mean you say.. oh they are not "understanding".. they are not educated about global warming.. that is why they don't believe it is happening.

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: they don't have the facts.
 
Raffila Millgrove: turns out that is not the reason why they don't believe in global warming.. so handing them the facts will not help.

Bruce Mowbray: so, "Just the facts, ma'am" is not enough with global warming?
Raffila Millgrove: right.
Bruce Mowbray: or just that they don't have them?
Raffila Millgrove: they aren't making a decision about global warming based on facts.
Bruce Mowbray: So, when will they come to their senses, when Miami, New Orleans, and New York are two feet under water?
Raffila Millgrove: giving them facts won't help.
Riddle Sideways: the global warming 'facts' seem overly obfuscated
Bruce Mowbray: won't help for now... but eventually ....
Bruce Mowbray: Californians should know -- about droughts....
Riddle Sideways: yep
Bruce Mowbray: and Floridians should know about hurricanes.
Raffila Millgrove: exactly.
Riddle Sideways: and the new reports of far northern building foundations are thawing and falling
Bruce Mowbray: Yes.
Raffila Millgrove: i read or watch people taking a 20 minutes shower.. here in California.. what? they have a PhD. they KNOW the facts.. they are taking a shower of 20 minutes. that's that.
Riddle Sideways: easily laughed off, by Florida has always had hurricanes
Raffila Millgrove: perfect example Riddle..
Bruce Mowbray: Yep, somehow the facts don't apply to them, I guess.
Bruce Mowbray: "Entitlement" to long showers?
Riddle Sideways: Raffi? you watch people taking showers?
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Bruce Mowbray: She just 'times' them, Riddle.
Bruce Mowbray: My water heater is turned on only when I take a shower... and it only holds 9 gallons, so no long showers for me!
Raffila Millgrove: well.. i had to pay the utility bills over here and i learned how much.. water and electricity.. two adults and a baby.. would.. use up.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Riddle Sideways: yep
Bruce Mowbray: I only turn on my water heater about half an hour before taking a shower, the rest of the time it is turned off.
Raffila Millgrove: because i had them living here... for over a year. and the utility co sends you all this info on comparing your usage of last year to this year.. or to your neighbors.
Riddle Sideways: son visited and explained and explained about showers. then the bill tripled

Bruce Mowbray: OMG.
Bruce Mowbray: Then I turn it off immediately before taking the shower, so I don't forget to do that.
 Raffila Millgrove: so.. i suddenly had this hard data on just how much... water/gas/electricity they used.
Riddle Sideways: ok, hard data
Raffila Millgrove: cause i can see. two people using it last year.. vs 4 adults and baby this year.. and now i look again.. only two adults.
Bruce Mowbray: I also have two used goose-down winter coats wrapped around my water heater - for insulation.
Riddle Sideways: another fun fact ... our water company raised the rates because people were not using enough
Bruce Mowbray: (I have no "water rates" - I get mine from a bottomless well at the farm with a submerged pump) and have done that for 45 years.
Raffila Millgrove: i can do these comparisons.. with hard data. nice little graphs even. they send all this stuff to me.. on paper.. wasting amazing amounts of paper.. when they could email it. it's quite an irony
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, irony upon irony.
Raffila Millgrove: yep
Bruce Mowbray: Like folks using jets to fly all over the world to talk about climate change....
Raffila Millgrove: but at least i feel ok that we are being very frugal with water
Raffila Millgrove: Riddle Sideways: the Internet provider sends a paper letter to tell us to look on their website for the bill
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bruce Mowbray: Can't you sign up for "electronic bills only"?
Riddle Sideways: btw - it rained here Thursday and the meadow is already starting to green with little shots
Raffila Millgrove: but they quit watering at the park and i find that awful. i feel that the grass for people who have none.... they should be watering for the people.
Bruce Mowbray: Spring in October?
Raffila Millgrove: the poor people were the first to go...
Raffila Millgrove: as far as having nice grass for the kids to play on.
Riddle Sideways: yes, Bruce, that is how the seasons work here
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I agree with Raffi.... But many folks do not consider public interests....
Raffila Millgrove: that's for darn sure.
Riddle Sideways: driving down the streets you can tell which houses have wells down to our water
Bruce Mowbray: again, that "entitlement" mentality, perhaps.
Bruce Mowbray: You have aquifers, Riddle?
Riddle Sideways: back to the facts ... there are lots of Fact-checking sites out there
Bruce Mowbray: We have underground streams --- here in the Midwest.
Raffila Millgrove: no. not many here.
Raffila Millgrove: oh sorry. that was to Riddle.
Bruce Mowbray: Have you heard of Guy McPherson or  Paul Beckwith?
Riddle Sideways: not many, some "down by the river"
Raffila Millgrove: we had a beautiful underground stream that came up.. into a neighborhood. very amazing. loved to walk there.. city closed it down. very sad.
Bruce Mowbray: https://guymcpherson.com/
Bruce Mowbray: https://paulbeckwith.net/

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: McPherson says the human species has - at most - twenty years left to survive.
Bruce Mowbray: Beckwith is not that pessimistic...
Bruce Mowbray: but warns we're in major trouble if things/attitudes/policies don't change.
Bruce Mowbray: Meanwhile, dozens of other species are made extinct by climate change....
Bruce Mowbray: Our turn is coming.
Raffila Millgrove: i read in a book about decision making.. why it's so short sighted.. and evidentially those who make big decisions.. in govt for example.. only have this sixty yr vision. that's the magic number. they don't care or see beyond it.
Raffila Millgrove: they did some algorithm.. they found 60 to be magic number. for planning decisions.
Bruce Mowbray: Ohio State 17 Northwestern 7
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm, I'd think it would be much shorter Raffi.
Raffila Millgrove: well they were reviewing big chunks of history.. so i agree.. it probably in went shorter as everything goes faster/shorter
Bruce Mowbray ponders planning for 60 years into the future...
Bruce Mowbray: maybe some planned cities would do that...
Raffila Millgrove: then again.. it seems to be based on people's lifetime and how far they.. can imagine out.. from their children.
Bruce Mowbray: or maybe twenty years, or thirty....
Riddle Sideways: remembering the Sci-fi books 'The Foundation'
Bruce Mowbray: Like, "We will need this much potable water and sewage facility in thirty years...." so let's build that into our plans.
Bruce Mowbray: Asimov....
Riddle Sideways: ty
Raffila Millgrove: my own little town.. a part of a much large city has a huge huge.. project. how to use a land that the city acquired. in the heart of this little town area.
Bruce Mowbray: Wow... a fortunate town!
Riddle Sideways: more like "I need to be re-elected in 4 years, so let's not do that expensive no return for 30 years project"
Raffila Millgrove: they city has to decide.. which project to choose.. it's very interesting.. because one project. wow.. it would make many jobs.. huge impact.
Raffila Millgrove: go way out into future.
Bruce Mowbray: or, they could use a portion of that land for parks...
Raffila Millgrove: and the other one.. is all nowish. it is sad because i know the project of now.. will beat the one of the future.
Bruce Mowbray: or nature conservation.
Riddle Sideways: yep
Riddle Sideways: sad
Bruce Mowbray: When I moved to Ohio in 1971, the governor was VERY big on state parks.... because he wanted his name on plaques in those parks...
Raffila Millgrove: the now project is all OLD MEN. of their work in 70-90. the new is all women.. and their work is all 200-2016
Bruce Mowbray: so fortunately, he built a lot of state parks,
Raffila Millgrove: so it's going to be the OLD MEN who will win this.
Bruce Mowbray: and one of them is only 9 miles from the farm where i live.
Raffila Millgrove: not the young women. breaks my heart but i know it will go that way.
Riddle Sideways: got only half way through the 'Hyper Normalization' video that Zen emailed. It was so full of short-sighted quick result actions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js19h1GW32o
Bruce Mowbray: THAT was one scary video!
Riddle Sideways: yes! was very scary
Raffila Millgrove: the one project is all looking backward. the other is all to the future. and its so exciting if they would chose the future. but they won't. they will chose old men with power.
Bruce Mowbray: a bit long, too...
Bruce Mowbray: over 2 1/2 hours.
Riddle Sideways: wha?? tax cuts for the wealthy is planning for their futures
Bruce Mowbray: Grrrr.
Riddle Sideways: oh dear. where did this soapbox come from
Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha.
Bruce Mowbray: NP.
Riddle Sideways: need to get back to 'Heart'
Raffila Millgrove: at least with the internet.. all the projects were up on a website with huge number of details, drawings and documents.. i had wonderful time studying them.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bruce Mowbray: Sounds great, Raffi.
Raffila Millgrove: yeah.. it's great to see someone else's dreams and all their background. i wish my girls would win. i know they won't.. but it was wonderful to see their dream and read all about them.
Bruce Mowbray: It's hard not to get discouraged.
Raffila Millgrove: well here's one happy note in this.
Riddle Sideways listens to happy notes
Bruce Mowbray loves happy notes.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: hiya Bruce, Riddle
Riddle Sideways: was the happy note that Mick arrived? :}
Raffila Millgrove: in the "old guys".... bios.. i found that the youngest son.. he is not .. one of them. he is the dreamer and the activist.. and they are going to let him be.. their lead man.. so at least there is one young person.. who will get to play a role.
Mickorod Renard: aha
Bruce Mowbray: How large is your town, Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: all my women will still work.. and carry on their careers.. just not.. in this town. sigh.
Raffila Millgrove: the big city.. is like million. but the little north "town" is more like 100k.
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh.

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: one second. i think i am way off on that.
Mickorod Renard: even at 100k its not so small
Bruce Mowbray: The farm where I live is about 15 miles equidistant from three towns of about 30,000...
Bruce Mowbray: all very different from each other.
Raffila Millgrove: yeah sorry. i am off my head today.
Raffila Millgrove: i am thinking about L.A.
Bruce Mowbray: I've enjoyed hearing from you Raffi. But, alas, I need to go now.
Bruce Mowbray: Please continue and I'll collect the log later.
Raffila Millgrove: ok.. so the "city" is 2oo,00 and the town is 25,000
Riddle Sideways: by Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: and have a fine weekend!
Raffila Millgrove: by Bruce.
Mickorod Renard: I am not staying long..i came to ask about the Halloween party?
Raffila Millgrove: hi Mick.
Riddle Sideways: same ratio
Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce
Riddle Sideways: party?
Raffila Millgrove: yes. i was off only by factor of Five. haha.
Raffila Millgrove: Raffi suddenly multiplies everything by five.
Mickorod Renard: well..there was talk of one but then it all went quiet
Riddle Sideways: factors don't matter
Raffila Millgrove: is there a party?
Raffila Millgrove: i got an invite to a nice party someone is throwing for the tenth rezz day tomorrow. i think i will stay around sl and go to it.
Mickorod Renard: well, I think when a town gets so ...big then it doesn't make much difference
Riddle Sideways: was suppose to play a party last night
Riddle Sideways: but, lead guitar player got into a bad auto accident
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Mickorod Renard: ouch
Raffila Millgrove: oh with a band. you are in a band?
Riddle Sideways: still in hospital
Mickorod Renard: no not me
Mickorod Renard: that's not good
Riddle Sideways: was to play/jam at a party today. was canceled due to possible rain
Mickorod Renard: I had this idea we were all building Stonehenge here somewhere
Raffila Millgrove: oh yes. we are doing that.
Raffila Millgrove: that's for sure Mick.
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Riddle Sideways: ah, the new Stonehenge over yonder
Raffila Millgrove: but later.. like later in Nov.
Mickorod Renard: but isn't it almost Halloween now
Mickorod Renard: ah great
Raffila Millgrove: we are waiting on Bleu.. to tell s .. more about it. we will make rocks.
Riddle Sideways: not until Bleu announcing it
Mickorod Renard: that's good, I was worried i was missing out
Raffila Millgrove: there will be a party.
Raffila Millgrove: but probably solstice
Mickorod Renard: great
Riddle Sideways: you've not missed it
Raffila Millgrove: you are right tho.. they were originally thinking around this time.
Mickorod Renard: oh yea..the 21 dec maybe
Riddle Sideways: still time to procrastinate
Raffila Millgrove: but it got pushed back.. calendar-wise.
Mickorod Renard: we can still sacrifice virgins, should we find any
Raffila Millgrove: hehe
Mickorod Renard: he he
Raffila Millgrove: it was lovely to see you Riddle. I think i have to go and get ready for this party. Take care Mick. Riddle.
Riddle Sideways: yes, thanks
Riddle Sideways: by
Riddle Sideways: for now
Mickorod Renard: yeh, bye raffi
Mickorod Renard: bye Riddle
Mickorod Renard: take care
Riddle Sideways: thanks and ya'll too
Mickorod Renard: cheers..its gettin late here
Mickorod Renard: well,,sort of
Riddle Sideways: mmm, that's right
Mickorod Renard: past 10 and should get stuff done
Mickorod Renard: seem to have inherited some kids i just noticed
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: c ya soon