The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: it may be quiet today
Mickorod Renard: :)

Zen Arado: why?
Mickorod Renard: how are you?..still jamming
Mickorod Renard: well, just by the fact there are only two of us
Zen Arado: yeh did a concert last night
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: great!
Mickorod Renard: on sl?
Zen Arado: yes
Mickorod Renard: many people?
Zen Arado: around 10 I guess
Mickorod Renard: thats not bad these days
Zen Arado: so many gigs on in SL nowadays
Mickorod Renard: I used to go to a few..but not been to any recently
Zen Arado: yeh gets boring
Zen Arado: more fun paying
Zen Arado: playing
Mickorod Renard: I think its good if you have someone with byou
Zen Arado: you get to know the crowd
Zen Arado: same people go to lots of gigs
Mickorod Renard: its still quiet ba good idea,,better than just the radio I think,,at least you know you are sharing with others
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: Aga is oline
Mickorod Renard: are you doing any more painting?
Zen Arado: she never seems to come to meetings now
Zen Arado: no
Zen Arado: no time for it
Mickorod Renard: I noticed that,,shame really
Mickorod Renard: yes, they take time
Zen Arado: do music instead now
Mickorod Renard: its all art
Zen Arado: yep
Zen Arado: something to do
Zen Arado: did painting 20 years
Zen Arado: was getting bored with it
Mickorod Renard: well, what do you recon..shall we do the siddhartha?
Zen Arado: ok but hope someone else comes
Mickorod Renard: I am trying to find a style that may sell..I am now just on oils
Zen Arado: up to you
Mickorod Renard: yes, they may come late if they have read the story
Zen Arado: best do your own thing Mick
Mickorod Renard: lets do it..if you are game
Zen Arado: finding what sells kills your art
Mickorod Renard: thats true,,but I am sticking to what inspired me to re start
Mickorod Renard: which are sultry ladies
Zen Arado: read an article about retired people producing crap paintings and killing the art market
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,that sounds like me
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: dogs and landscapes
Zen Arado: I was in 2 art clubs for years
Zen Arado: and it's true
Mickorod Renard: oh yeh,,dont do them,,I can do dogs and horses tho
Mickorod Renard: ok,,lets do the story
Zen Arado: framing stops you making much money
Mickorod Renard: are you ready
Zen Arado: ok
Mickorod Renard: great
Mickorod Renard: I will read too
Mickorod Renard: let me know when you are read up
Zen Arado: can you put in chat?
Mickorod Renard: ok
Mickorod Renard: its big
--BELL--
Zen Arado: notecards are so small text
Mickorod Renard: extract from http://www.bodhitales.org/a-riceball.php A Riceball In the forest, under the great pippala tree, Siddhartha practised meditation diligently. Every day, Svasti, a water buffalo boy, cut krusha grass for him to sit on. Sujata, the village chief’s daughter, brought him food in the early afternoon. For several months now, they had been happy to help their meditator friend.
Mickorod Renard: One day, Svasti’s sister, Bima, made riceballs mixed with berries. Svasti thought them yummy and was eager to offer one to Siddhartha. When he arrived at the pippala tree, a girl was already sitting there with his friend. Svasti instinctively knew she was from a higher caste. He stopped short a few paces behind her. “Svasti, come sit down with us. This is Sujata. We’re just about to have lunch. Please join us.” Siddhartha greeted Svasti with a warm friendly smile.
Mickorod Renard: “Hello, Svasti. Please sit here beside me.” Sujata smiled and moved her basket to her other side. Svasti sat down and saw some food had been set down in front of Siddhartha. There was a small bowl of curry, some rice balls, and a bowl filled with vegetables. The curry smelled so wonderful, and the riceballs looked so good. Svasti’s hand reached back quickly in an attempt to put away the riceball he had brought. “Did you bring something?” Siddhartha looked with interest. “Erh…erh…it’s nothing, just my…sister Bima, made it.” Svasti felt awkward and he felt his face turned very hot in that instant.
Mickorod Renard: “Not one of her delicious riceballs that you had told me about just the other day, why, I’d love to try one.” “How did he know that?” Svasti reluctantly unwrapped his riceball and placed it beside the bowl of curry.
Mickorod Renard: Under the pippala tree, the three friends enjoyed a quiet lunch together sharing equally all the food. “Svasti and Sujata, thank you both for a lovely meal. Svasti, please thank Bima for me and tell her that her riceball was delicious.”
Mickorod Renard: Sujata joined her hands together and asked, “Prince Siddhartha, please do not think me rude, but could you tell us a little about what you have discovered from your meditation?”
Mickorod Renard: Siddhartha thought for a while. Then he began, “Ever since I was very, very young, I did not like to see people unhappy or animals in distress. For my part, I tried to protect the animals. When possible, I tried to make things better so as to make my parents happy, to make my friends happy, but almost without fail, they always grew unhappy again.
Mickorod Renard: “I needed to first understand why people are unhappy. Then, maybe I could help them. Often, I sat quietly by myself. I turned all my attention inward. I watched my thoughts, how they would come and go. They were usually about things that I liked and wanted. I called them thoughts of attraction. There were thoughts about things that I did not like and therefore avoided. I called them thoughts of aversion. Then there were the thoughts that I did not care for one way or another. I called them the neutral thoughts. Gradually I came to realize that thoughts of attraction and aversion are like two sides of the same coin. There cannot be one without the other. For example, because I like to be clean then I don’t like to be dirty. I began to see how everyone experienced this two-sided way of looking at things. I called it dualistic thinking or dualistic experience. Do you know what I mean?”
Mickorod Renard: Hi Kori
Korel Laloix: heya
Zen Arado: Hi Kori
Mickorod Renard: “Yes, it’s like I don’t want to be stupid and I want to be smart.” replied Svasti. “Or I want to look pretty and not ugly.” Sujata added her own example. “Very good.” Siddhartha continued, “I noticed how this kind of dualistic thinking occupied the mind just like the clouds that covered the sky. I started to observe myself and other people going about in their daily affairs. After some time, I came to recognize that there are basically four pairs of dualistic ideas that preoccupied our minds:
Mickorod Renard: Happiness and unhappiness: We want happiness and we avoid unhappiness. Gain and loss: We work hard to gain what we want and then we guard against loss. Praise and criticism: We need praise by others and we dislike criticisms from others. Fame and disgrace: We want to be famous and we dread disgrace.”
Korel Laloix: At work so will take me a while to get to it... thanks.
Mickorod Renard: kk
Mickorod Renard: Sujata and Svasti both nodded in agreement as they listened. Sujata reflected upon how her mother was always worried about what people might think. She dreaded disgrace. Svasti reflected on how his boss, Mr. Ramu, was so afraid of losing his water buffaloes.
Mickorod Renard: “But what are these ideas, what do they mean: gain, loss, happy, unhappy, etc? They only describe a temporary condition. The ideas and the words are harmless. The problem is we believe them to be true and we try to grasp them, to make them our own. For example, everyone wishes to find happiness. But can we hold on to happiness?
Mickorod Renard: We are at best temporarily happy. The same is true for whatever it is that we gain. It changes after a little while. We buy a new cup but soon it’s no longer new. Somehow people don’t see that the things of our lives and of our world are constantly changing. In fact, according to conditions, change is happening in every moment. The magnificent bloom of a rose is at the same time marking its inevitable withering. Nothing stays the same in time.
Mickorod Renard: Everything is impermanent. No rain lasts forever. Seasons come and go. Our bodies are aging every day. We reach out hoping to grasp onto something, but there is nothing that can be grasped. But we refuse to accept this natural law. We always want things to be a certain way. But we cannot stop the water from flowing, we cannot stop the sun from setting, and we cannot stop the movement of time. .
Mickorod Renard: so there is a constant sense of longing and dissatisfaction. Helplessly, we experience a continuum of emotions like anger, despair, jealousy, and loneliness. These emotions further cloud our view, our judgement. Often, they cause us to act and behave in selfish and wasteful ways.
Mickorod Renard: “My young friends, I wish to find a better way to be. Underneath all the busy thoughts and feelings, mind is naturally peaceful. I believe the answer is there. Meditation allows me to take a step back away from the habitual patterns of mind. It allows me to see how my mind works. I concentrate inwardly and really look deep inside myself to understand how I am, how I feel, and how I act. I believe that this understanding will lead me to find a way out of suffering for my parents, for my family and friends, and for all living beings.”
Mickorod Renard: But Svasti leaned forward a little and said, “Prince Siddhartha, you know when I was coming here today, I was so happy because I was bringing you something that was good. How quickly my happiness turned into disappointment when I saw the very fine riceballs Sujata had brought. My riceball that earlier had made me proud then made me feel ashamed. I thought it inferior. Later when you said it was yummy, I felt good again. I now see that I was caught up in what you called dualistic thinking. The riceball was still the same riceball no matter how I saw it. But my dualistic thinking made me feel pride, shame, or happiness depending on the changing circumstances. I guess this is what you mean to look inside myself. Is it?” Siddhartha nodded.
Mickorod Renard: done
Zen Arado: kk great story
Mickorod Renard: yes, I missed a tiny bit
Mickorod Renard: but again it ties in with tsk and our other meet
Zen Arado: it's basic Buddhims
Mickorod Renard: i felt I never knew what duelistic thinking was
Zen Arado: but I have forgotten it
Mickorod Renard: yes, great to refresh
Mickorod Renard: thats why I like this run of stories..not too complicated
Zen Arado: yes
--BELL--
Zen Arado: seems 2 ways to look at dualism
Zen Arado: :)
Mickorod Renard: we all must do it,,but the hint is the meditation helps reflect on it
Zen Arado: Yin and Yang way
Mickorod Renard: yes, the good and the bad?
Zen Arado: two sides of the same thing
Zen Arado: both needed
Mickorod Renard: yes, each a side of a balance I guess?
Zen Arado: there woudn't be good if no bad
Zen Arado: interdependent
Mickorod Renard: should one desire more of the better side though?
Zen Arado: that's what he is getting at here?
Zen Arado: we have to accept both sides
Mickorod Renard: or should one shun the better and always seek the middle
Mickorod Renard: yes, ..I was thinking that it helps to be accepting,,like accepting winter
Zen Arado: yes lots of stress on acceptance nowadays
Zen Arado: I try to accept Christas :)
Zen Arado: Christmas
Mickorod Renard: we seem to be in a society..or world where one expects to get
Mickorod Renard: Christmas..more of a pagan festival
Zen Arado: Tonglen practice seems to draw the bad into oneself
Zen Arado: and give out good
Mickorod Renard: how does that work~?
Zen Arado: so couterintuitive
Zen Arado: you can cisualise it using the breath
Zen Arado: breathe in hot, heavy, dark
Mickorod Renard: during meditation?
Zen Arado: and breathe out light , bright, cool
Zen Arado: any time
Mickorod Renard: ok,,thats a cool idea
Zen Arado: but apply that to a situation
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: someone does something bad to you
Zen Arado: you breathe that in and try to give them good
Zen Arado: thoughts
Mickorod Renard: consume them,,and then spit them out good?
Mickorod Renard: he he
Zen Arado: or accept them anyway
Zen Arado: or a bad situation
Zen Arado: and send good thoughts to everyone else suffering in the way you are
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking about it,,but felt like it would contaminate me
Zen Arado: Pema Chodron good on this
Zen Arado: it is liberating
Zen Arado: Lojong teachings are all great mind training exercises
Mickorod Renard: I have experienced some great positive and compassionate thoughts and effects
Mickorod Renard: I do think it works
Zen Arado: just thinking Jesus teaching was similar?
Mickorod Renard: I often think that the idea of love and such for all people is a good start
Zen Arado: just think. if you hate someone they have captured your thoughts and emotions
Mickorod Renard: but no, I wasnt thinking jesus
Mickorod Renard: thats a good point Zen
Zen Arado: can't remember exact quotations
Mickorod Renard: some of the martial arts also use others force to your benefit
Zen Arado: about going second mile etc
Zen Arado: giving someone your coat
Zen Arado: yes good point Mick
Mickorod Renard: well, it often works wonders,,but there is always a risk folk will take the piss
Zen Arado: you know the story of guy who invented judo?
Mickorod Renard: no?
Mickorod Renard: can you say more?
Zen Arado: he spent a lot of time wrestling but found evenly matched opponents couldn't over come each other
Zen Arado: one day he was waling in a park after heavy snowfall
Mickorod Renard: ah
Zen Arado: he heard carcks of snow laden branches breaking
Zen Arado: but then he saw a willow tree
Zen Arado: its branches jst got lower to the ground with more snow
Zen Arado: then it fell of and the branch sprang back
Zen Arado: so he got the idea of less resistance
Zen Arado: :)
Mickorod Renard: great!..a fine example of flexibility and so forth
Zen Arado: going with the flow :)
Mickorod Renard: yes
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: like acceptance too
--BELL--
Zen Arado: accept our burdens?
Mickorod Renard: I have to admit,,I have often got no where when I have been trying to be too ..overbearing
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: society has brainwashed us into trying to be powerful and strong
Mickorod Renard: Its easier now for me to see these things, but when I was younger it seemed like giving in
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: still pressure to be like that
Zen Arado: Donald TRump?
Zen Arado: :)
Mickorod Renard: I dont know if in the past society was more generous or lesss?
Zen Arado: think of heros in old films
Zen Arado: John Wayne
Zen Arado: strong individuals
Mickorod Renard: there is a trend to see him as an ass..trump that is,,but one can never trust the opposition either
Zen Arado: other dualism meaning
Zen Arado: yes :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, thats treu Zen,,we are conditioned
Zen Arado: we split things into 2 opposites unnecessarily
Mickorod Renard: all the latest films are as bad,,with people with ridiculous powers
Zen Arado: right/wrong good/ bad
Zen Arado: true/false
Mickorod Renard: but the secret path is the middle one?
Zen Arado: and life doesn't fit neat distinctions
Zen Arado: not sure about that Mick
Mickorod Renard: and it wouldnt be there if there wasnt the ones on either side
Zen Arado: though it's in Buddhism
Zen Arado: perhaps it is generally best path
Mickorod Renard: yes, we are always gonna get blasted by one side or the other,,cant avoid it
Zen Arado: but maybe we have to take extreme views and actions sometimes?
Mickorod Renard: yes, ..and be open minded,,and open hearted?
Zen Arado: it's the Golden Meam fallacy
Zen Arado: Mean
Zen Arado: forget who came up with that
Zen Arado: one of the Greek philosophers
Mickorod Renard: I find it hard with my grandkids..I am telling them not to react or feel bad about things yet in my heart I feel it..he he
Zen Arado: there is no Golden Mean
Mickorod Renard: no, I see what you mean,,its one or another
Zen Arado: yeh if some kid at school bullies them I would tell them to hit them back
Mickorod Renard: thats the temptation
Zen Arado: it's a rough world for schoolkids
Mickorod Renard: as with the story,,there are so many ways we can feel unjustly hurt
Zen Arado: maybbe they have to be free to react and find what happens themselves
Zen Arado: like the kid in the story
Mickorod Renard: I think that is basically what happens..thats what being a kid is about,,learning by experience
Zen Arado: it ever ends either
Mickorod Renard: but as I am now older,,it is supprising that I still need to understrand life
Mickorod Renard: snap
Zen Arado: careworkers try to bully me now :)
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Mickorod Renard: I suppose they think they know best
Zen Arado: you become old and vulnerable
Zen Arado: or they are lazy and careless
Mickorod Renard: I get this with my wife..she is now more an expert after her years,,of her ailments as the young doctors
Zen Arado: some are great but always exceptions
Mickorod Renard: yes, always will be,,some are limited to time as well
Zen Arado: was on the news tonight
Zen Arado: budgets cut by councils
Mickorod Renard: I tell my wife to stand up and ask questions or argue her case if she is not satisfied
Zen Arado: too many old people aroind these days
Zen Arado: that's the way they see it
Mickorod Renard: yeppers,,gonna get worse too
Mickorod Renard: unless we get hit by some killer flu
Mickorod Renard: he he
Zen Arado: should get everyone to start smokinng again
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: ut diabetes is doing that job now
Mickorod Renard: I stopped about 3 years ago
Mickorod Renard: yes, type 2 diabetes
Zen Arado: I stopped 3o years ago
Zen Arado: 30
Mickorod Renard: wow
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: I didnt think there was incentive that far back
Zen Arado: yes that's whn 1st studies came out
Mickorod Renard: my dad packed in around then and he ended up with asthma
Zen Arado: so now I can suffer from lots of other old age diseases :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Mickorod Renard: me too
Mickorod Renard: like I hurt now,,bones hurt..trappped nurves carpel tunnel..and general wear and tear
Mickorod Renard: but basically ok
Zen Arado: I suppose main thing to learn that suffering is temporary
Zen Arado: my right hip is getting painful
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,thats the thing,,suffering is now lasting longer
Zen Arado: better stop or you will get list of ailments :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: yep,,I spoze i had better get doi ng house stuff
Mickorod Renard: thankyou for coming Zen
Zen Arado: thank you for hosting Mick
Mickorod Renard: would have been boring without you,,and you are also well up on this stuff too
Mickorod Renard: cheers,,take care
Zen Arado: byee
Mickorod Renard: byeeeee
Mickorod Renard: bye Kori
Korel Laloix: ciao
Mickorod Renard: take care
Korel Laloix: Was able to lsiten and read a little.
Korel Laloix: Thanks.
Mickorod Renard: great
Mickorod Renard: :)..thansk for coming over
Korel Laloix: I try to stop by when I can.