2016.10.27 13:00 - Heart Sutra: Basilisks in Deep Drop

The Guardians for this meeting were Mick and Eliza. Eliza posted this session.

druth Vlodovic: hey eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth!
Eliza Madrigal: glad that you made it
druth Vlodovic: was looking for the heart sutra link, I meant to review it over the week but, as per usual,a week goes by so fast :/
Eliza Madrigal: it does... I just pasted it onto this board, but wasn't able to gather any notes into something cohesive
Eliza Madrigal: so I'm hoping that with just a bit more structure we can all draw from one another and hear one another in a clearer way
druth Vlodovic: hmm, cohesive structure in buddhism
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: well, in PaB, sort of
Eliza Madrigal: I can't imagine leaving buddhism out of the conversation but can envision the sutra crossing barriers
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :))
druth Vlodovic: hey tura
druth Vlodovic: not much sense in avoiding the origin of what we discuss
druth Vlodovic: mind you I am completely unembarassed to pick apart somebody else's religion
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza, druth, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello
druth Vlodovic: hi aph
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal nods... I think there are parallels to western philosophies though...
Eliza Madrigal: and even our light practices over the years of dropping, and apapb and such
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :))
druth Vlodovic: bruce
Eliza Madrigal points to her tshirt to bring back memories (@Bruce) lol  [Bruce missed my "Free Bruce and Blub" shirt]
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, everyone.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: Hi folks
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: Aph you are such a proper lady, dressing for the seasons ^.^
druth Vlodovic: hey mick
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: i try and keep up
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bruce, I am always a bit worried about sitting next to you in case I am on tinis seat
Bruce Mowbray: Why is that?
Bruce Mowbray: You mean the tiny seat?
Mickorod Renard: I sort of ..well..its another story
Mickorod Renard: yes
Bruce Mowbray: kk, np.
Eliza Madrigal: you seem to be okay Mick
Mickorod Renard: yep
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: The tiny seat is three seats to your left
Mickorod Renard: Ah,,great
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eos
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eos.
Aphrodite Macbain: waves and smiles at Eos
druth Vlodovic: eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eliza, Mick, Bruck, Aph, druth, ..
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks for putting up the Heart Sutra Eliza
Eos Amaterasu: Tura,
Aphrodite Macbain: very helpful
Eliza Madrigal: oh, most welcome

Eliza Madrigal: I took a look at the link that Eos gave last session, to a glossary.... helpful too: https://www.nalandatranslation.org/o...ent-knowledge/
Eliza Madrigal: A lot of the terms may be technical for our way of things, but good to have a foundation

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Adams.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Adams
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello All :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Adams

Eliza Madrigal: We've started to discuss emptiness a few times in PaB, and have had a little trouble, understandably. There have been concerns that it is a serious or unnerving topic that should be undertaken with a rl group or teacher, for instance...
Eliza Madrigal: but I think everything we have 'studied' in PaB comes back to this, emptiness... so although I do take seriously concerns about 'teaching' it in some way, that isn't what we're doing.
Eliza Madrigal: We're learning and drawing from one another across a range of impressions and experience. :)
Eliza Madrigal: Did everyone see my email?
druth Vlodovic: yep
Mickorod Renard: yes
Adams Rubble nods
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: very nice and much appreciated
Eliza Madrigal: So I hope that others will volunteer to gather something to share with the group going forward. You can say here or just email me :)
Tura Brezoianu: yes

Eliza Madrigal: For today, does someone have thoughts since last week, that we can begin with, then move around the circle?
Eliza Madrigal: Mick?
Mickorod Renard: hello
Eliza Madrigal: (thanks Aph)
Eliza Madrigal: haha, hello :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Mickorod Renard: I have something
Aphrodite Macbain: (yvw)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen.
Mickorod Renard: I prepared
Eliza Madrigal: I'll IM you with the session so far Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen
Adams Rubble: Hello Zen :)
Eos Amaterasu: ~~
Zen Arado: Hi all
Mickorod Renard: If you like i COULD PASTE IN CHAT
Mickorod Renard: oops
Eliza Madrigal: yes sure
Bruce Mowbray: sounds good, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: ok,,may take a min to read
Tura Brezoianu: creaky floorboards, Zen? :)

Mickorod Renard: I was trying to think about the heart sutra and the questions we raised regarding emptiness and nihilism. First it should be remembered I am not Buddhist or an academic in anything..in fact I still hold onto a Christain belief.

I was thinking that in a way our lives are like a book, written as it goes along and to which we refer to in our times of reflection and using our experience as guidance and examples of how life pans out. But whats alive and what is present in myself is what is now. I pick up a book and what is it..paper..the characters in the book are not real now if ever they were ,but words written like memories saved.

Our individual book (memories) could have been written by a self that no longer represents the new modern self..educated..more experienced self. Just like the book I read off the shelf, and put it down after deciding that it no longer appealed to my present self.

And anyway, why can't I re-write my book..should the advice in it be so perfect from the beginning? My lifebook is not empty of words ..which convey my thoughts..but they have no real substance and in this context I can ignore them or remould them..they are as I wish to tend to them and they should not control my way of life exclusively.

And I thought of my grand daughter who knows its wrong to steal...yet the other day was happy with her cheap purchase of a pirate dvd. And how one day she will re write her thoughts on that and wonder at how her original thought was just empty anyway or at least could be if she didn't choose to carry guilt.

On a personal basis, on the back of what it takes to be open hearted in our encounters, I feel its a good start to consider the practice of 'heart sutra' and question my every feeling and perhaps judgmental way, just as if I am being nihilistic...pretend as it were..as if I am an empty sheet of paper to be written on. done

Eliza Madrigal reading....
Mickorod Renard: excuse spelling please
Aphrodite Macbain: try to be a tabula rasa?
Eos Amaterasu wonders about the lost 18 letters
Mickorod Renard: me too
druth Vlodovic: On a personal basis, on the back of what it takes to be open hearted in our encounters, I feel its a good start to consider the practice of 'heart sutra' and question my every feeling and perhaps judgemental way, just as if I am being nihilistic...pretend as it were..as if I am an empty sheet of paper to be written on.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
druth Vlodovic: that should do it
Eliza Madrigal: thank you for starting us off in such a personal way, Mick
Mickorod Renard: my pleasure
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, thanks. Mick.
Mickorod Renard: may be off track
Eliza Madrigal: not to me... you are suggesting an open-to-revision self?
Aphrodite Macbain: a clean slate?

Eos Amaterasu:"I seem to be a verb" - Buckminster Fuller
druth Vlodovic: lol

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: well..I just offered my thoughts
Mickorod Renard: I was in the shower
Bruce Mowbray makes note to erase his typist's slate.
Mickorod Renard: don't picture it please
Aphrodite Macbain: making your slate clean?
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,and other things
druth Vlodovic: I can't SL in the shower until I get my waterproof pad
Eliza Madrigal: :) Eos, care to go next?

Eos Amaterasu: Umm, okay.
Eos Amaterasu: Considering taking experiential tack
Eos Amaterasu: with PaB flavour
Eos Amaterasu: Everything in Heart Sutra seems to come from "doing deep Prajna Paramita"
Eos Amaterasu: which I'm somewhat equating with, though it is an open question,
Eos Amaterasu: with deep drop
Eos Amaterasu: So examining my, our experience, of drop (like in next 15 minute drop et al), as
Eos Amaterasu: way to examine what it means to hold the paramita (way to get to the other shore)
Eos Amaterasu: of prajna, of insight
Eos Amaterasu: which sees "emptiness", or unconditioned openness
Eos Amaterasu: within which all the leaves bud and colour and fall
Eos Amaterasu: Cheers,
Eos Amaterasu: Done
Bruce Mowbray: ty, Eos.
Mickorod Renard: yes ty
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks- nicely said
Eliza Madrigal: yes quite, ty...

Aphrodite Macbain: can I ask what makes a drop deep?
Eos Amaterasu: it doesn't hit bottom
Bruce Mowbray: !!
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
druth Vlodovic: takes nothing with it?
Bruce Mowbray loves "No bottoms."
Aphrodite Macbain: but doesnt float on the surface
Zen Arado: there is no bottom :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Adams?
 

Adams Rubble: I really intended to just listen to day but let me offer a couple of things
Bruce Mowbray: Please do, Adams.
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Adams Rubble: I agree with Eos' idea to use the PaB experimental approach and begin to look at what we can
Adams Rubble: it is fairly easy to see the emptiness of our thoughts
Adams Rubble: clouding our mind
Adams Rubble: we get angry at things and build up lots of reasons to explain and prolong our anger
Bleu Oleander slips in quietly ... sorry to be late
Adams Rubble: as Pema pointed out many times, we can see the table is actually molecules and finally atoms with lots of space between
Adams Rubble: so I like the experimental apprioach
Adams Rubble: done
Eliza Madrigal nods... thank you Adams
Eliza Madrigal: I won't put Bleu on the spot just yet.... :) Hi Bleu. Zen?
Bleu Oleander: ty :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu..ty Adams

Zen Arado: oh
Zen Arado: by a trange coincidence Brad Warner posted an article on Form/Emptiness on FB today
Zen Arado: strange
Zen Arado: punk rocker Zen teacher?
Aphrodite Macbain: why not?
Zen Arado: If the elementary particles that make us up are actually nothing, what about us? Maybe we are all ultimately emptiness. We are all silence. We are all nothing.
Zen Arado: he said
Zen Arado: he used scientific approach
Zen Arado: I was always taught that emptiness meant empty of self in Buddhism
Zen Arado: i.e. empty of any solid enduring form
Zen Arado: so though we see and have form it is only transitory and ultimately empty?
Zen Arado: done
Eliza Madrigal: nice, ty Zen

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: yes, I get that Zen..he he
Zen Arado: http://hardcorezen.info/form-is-emptiness/4935
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Zen

Eliza Madrigal: Although intending to focus on the Heart Sutra, I found myself reading parts of "I Am That" this week. Both texts meet profoundly at the question of "dropping what I have, to see what I am"....
Eliza Madrigal: Last week some touched on "neti neti" or the "not that, not that" approach (negation), and I've just found myself going back to that kind of practice
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: not the whole question of self in this case, but perhaps close to what Adams brings up...daily angers or seeming knotholes
Eliza Madrigal: "Our usual attitude is of 'I am this'. Separate consistently and perseveringly the 'I am' from 'this' or 'that', and try to feel what it means to be, just to be, without being 'this' or 'that'. Nisargadatta [done]
Eliza Madrigal: Aph? :)
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Eliza
Mickorod Renard: lovely
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, lovely.

Aphrodite Macbain: I am attracted to the notion of emptiness, it is reassuring to me, and reduces every issue to non existence.
Aphrodite Macbain: A sort of dont worry, be happy wish
Aphrodite Macbain: but I am torn by two seemingly opposite challenges:
Aphrodite Macbain: to consider myself empty, a blank slate and to "know myself" as Socrates challenged his pupils
Aphrodite Macbain: and I find myself very complex, filled with memories, experiences, attitudes
Aphrodite Macbain: that I am unable to make disappear.
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps I have misunderstood the sutra.
Aphrodite Macbain: done
Eos Amaterasu: Beautifully described!
Eliza Madrigal: quite, ty Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks!
Mickorod Renard: much to ponder Aph ty
Eliza Madrigal: reads like a poem :)
Aphrodite Macbain: !
Eliza Madrigal: Druth, ready for baton?

druth Vlodovic: ok
druth Vlodovic: I have a few thoughts based on my last ideas and eliza's e-mail
Zen Arado: ponders 'understand'
druth Vlodovic: but first I want to describe an art installation I saw once which I think illustrates things nicely
druth Vlodovic: it was human figures in the dark with light projected on them
druth Vlodovic: pictures and images
druth Vlodovic: so that you really only saw the person where they were lit
druth Vlodovic: and depending on the pose and the image sometimes it was hard or impossible to know the image
druth Vlodovic: and other times to recognize that it is a human figure
druth Vlodovic: to see normally is to experience through the self
druth Vlodovic: a road in the fall can be beauiful, or an unholy mess to clean up, or a series of hazards to navigation
Zen Arado: nods
druth Vlodovic: but to see something scientifically we need to see the thing directly
druth Vlodovic: within it's context and as itself
druth Vlodovic: as with the understanding that we are seeing with our senses
druth Vlodovic: done
Eos Amaterasu: mmmm
druth Vlodovic: er,that was supposed to be a description of emptiness lol
Bruce Mowbray: TY, druth.
Zen Arado: ty druth
Mickorod Renard: and very thought provoking Druth..ty
Eliza Madrigal: "understanding that we are seeing with our senses" gives a nice springboard perhaps, to when we go into aggregates a bit :) ty
Aphrodite Macbain: seeing with our senses and not our feelings
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Zen Arado: Plato's Cave from the other side?
druth Vlodovic: or with both
Eliza Madrigal: ie the question of senses
Zen Arado: the istallation
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Tura?

--BELL--

Tura Brezoianu: Shall I wait for the bell?
Eliza Madrigal: either way, but we have time :)
Tura Brezoianu: Let us contemplate the things that have been said, for 90 seconds :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :)

Tura Brezoianu: One of Eliza's "study questions" was about how emptiness relates to open-heartedness.
Tura Brezoianu: I think of emptiness and compassion as two basilisks.
Tura Brezoianu: The basilisk is a mythological creature that kills with its gaze.
Tura Brezoianu: So emptiness is a way of getting at things like...
Tura Brezoianu: our ideas are not the reality that they're about, and sometimes they're completely wrong, or based on concepts that correspond to nothing in reality.
Tura Brezoianu: And we need to learn to better see reality, past our ideas of it.
Tura Brezoianu: So all that is worth achieving.
Tura Brezoianu: But one can slide past that into nothing is true, all is permitted.
Tura Brezoianu: And you turn into Pol Pot.
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Tura Brezoianu: Go overboard on compassion, and you burn yourself out frantically trying to save the world, and fail to save anyone.
Tura Brezoianu: There's a classic case of that
Tura Brezoianu: An economist called George Price, reduced to despair by his study fo human motivation.
Tura Brezoianu: There's a Wiki article about him, and how he ended up.
Tura Brezoianu: So Buddhism takes these two basilisks and gets them to stare at each other
Tura Brezoianu: so that each will curb the other.
Bruce Mowbray: wow :)
Aphrodite Macbain: equanimity?
Eliza Madrigal: fascinating picture Tura
Tura Brezoianu: done
Eos Amaterasu: !
Mickorod Renard: great,,I was thinking equanamity too Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: a fine balance
Eliza Madrigal: dynamic
Aphrodite Macbain: yes that too
Mickorod Renard: great view Tura
Eliza Madrigal: Ready Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: thank you, Tura. Fine insights.
Zen Arado: great Tura

Bruce Mowbray: kk, my turn, I guess.
Bruce Mowbray: So, the line, "Far beyond such delusion, Nirvana is already here" feels lovely and right-on, until I get stuck in analyzing what "beyond" might mean . . .
Mickorod Renard: spotlight on Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: And, alas, my notion is that "beyond" means beyond elementary particles and the energy waves that may or may not propel/envelope/subsume them.
Bruce Mowbray: The whole sutra seems to me a description (sorry, I don't have a better word---) maybe a metaphor (maybe a BETTER word, maybe) metaphor of what "beyond" is.
Bruce Mowbray: Whatever it is, it is already HERE.
Bruce Mowbray: So, there are two things -- just TWO things -- that are "here": (1) What's left of whatever it is I think is going on, and . . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: is it a place?
Bruce Mowbray: (2) Nirvana. God? Emptiness? Ground of Being? Ultimate Concern? Doesn't matter. Go beyond it. Hail the going and the go-er!
Bruce Mowbray: And then gratitude overwhelms me . . . . and I begin again.
Bruce Mowbray: [done]
Mickorod Renard: yay..how uplifting..incredible Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: you have such a clear voice Bruce, thank you
Bruce Mowbray: ty, and yw.
Eliza Madrigal: I like that way of viewing the sutra as a whole also... a picture that can't be pictured of what beyond might mean
Bruce Mowbray: @ Aph: Yes, in a way it is a sort of "place."
Aphrodite Macbain: I love your positive attitude Bruce.
Eliza Madrigal: "grounded in emptiness"
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, do you wish for a spot? :))
Eos Amaterasu: :-)

Mickorod Renard: I wonder,,if the crossing to the other side of the river is just that,,and the leaving of the dragging chains
Aphrodite Macbain: I was wondering whether beyond was meant to imply a shift in place or a shift in attitude
Bleu Oleander: perhaps I'll just listen today
Eliza Madrigal: :) sure
Bleu Oleander: ty :)
Eos Amaterasu: Dynamite reports all around! :-)

Bruce Mowbray: May I add one thing, please?
Eliza Madrigal: please
Bruce Mowbray: Aph's question brought up something in me.
Mickorod Renard: listens
Bruce Mowbray: It is a "place" beyond prepositions.
Bruce Mowbray: To over, under, toward, away from,,,, etc.
Bruce Mowbray: No over....
Bruce Mowbray: etc.
Bruce Mowbray: So, good luck with that.
Bruce Mowbray: [done]
Mickorod Renard: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: gee thanks Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: No "beyond" either.
Bruce Mowbray: Beyond beyond, actually.
Eos Amaterasu: paragate
Bruce Mowbray: yw.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, paragate, Thanks Eos.
Aphrodite Macbain: what is that?
Bruce Mowbray: Beyond beyond.
Aphrodite Macbain: :/
Zen Arado: beyond understanding?

--BELL--

druth Vlodovic: or before, before we cluttered ourselves with understandings
Eos Amaterasu: Yes
Bruce Mowbray nods to druth.
Eos Amaterasu: prior to
Eos Amaterasu: prior to delusion

Aphrodite Macbain: Is it a gate we enter or exit?
Eos Amaterasu: ha ha
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Aph weaves koans
Bruce Mowbray: The gateless gate"
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: are we leaving something behind or experiencing something anew?
Mickorod Renard: the same gate we went the wrong way through
Bruce Mowbray: and "pathless path"
Zen Arado: it doesn't open unil we give up trying to open it
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe we ourselves are the Gate.
Zen Arado: or it was open all the time
Eos Amaterasu: "prior to delusion" is in us
Zen Arado: we closed it in thoughts?
Bruce Mowbray: and the [pali, now] the gate, and the paragate.
Aphrodite Macbain: love these metaphors
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: feels like an expanding universe thats now going back to a singularity

Adams Rubble: I must go. thank you all :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Adams
Bruce Mowbray: TY, ADams.
Eos Amaterasu: Thanks, Adams
Mickorod Renard: bye Adams,,lovely to dsee ya
Zen Arado: bye Adams
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks for your wise words
Eliza Madrigal waves to a poofed Adams
Eos Amaterasu: gate
Bruce Mowbray also waves.
Eliza Madrigal: Before we close I'd like to repost this reminder:
Eliza Madrigal: So I hope that others will volunteer to gather something to share with the group going forward. You can say here or just email me :)

Eliza Madrigal: I think this way of doing things worked nicely... am sort of overstimulated and astounded by the range of wisdom here
Eliza Madrigal: "nirvana is already here" eh....
Eos Amaterasu: Yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: something related to the Heart Sutra Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: yes Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: k
Mickorod Renard: sounds like harvest festibval
Eliza Madrigal: something you can pull out of or as relating to the text
Eliza Madrigal: so can be an expounding of terms or a key that is especially meaningful personally
Zen Arado: I gots ta go beyond
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye Zen
Eos Amaterasu: "3-fold purity" relates to what Tura was saying....
Aphrodite Macbain: happy travels Zen
Zen Arado: yee everyone
Mickorod Renard: bye zen
Eos Amaterasu: ciao!
Bleu Oleander: I must go too ... nice to see you all
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Zen.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu, happy you made it
Mickorod Renard: bye bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Bleu.
Eliza Madrigal: That sounds really interesting Eos...
Bleu Oleander: bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: for next week maybe, could you open the session with that?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: thanks :))))
Eos Amaterasu: And then go around again
Mickorod Renard: great!
Bruce Mowbray: cool.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, wonderful

Eliza Madrigal: I love the basilisk image, piercing eyes
Eos Amaterasu: Yikes, yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: balancing extremes
Eos Amaterasu: vaporizing extremes
Bruce Mowbray: Mutually vaporizing streams.
Eos Amaterasu: drop it!, they say :-)
Bruce Mowbray: !! Neti neti.
Eos Amaterasu: This was a great session, thanks all!
Aphrodite Macbain: niet niet
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks ELiza
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks everyone
Eos Amaterasu: Bye all
Eliza Madrigal: thanks so so much
druth Vlodovic: don't cross the streams!
Bruce Mowbray: Time for me to be a-scraping up a delusional supper....
Aphrodite Macbain: what will happen if we do?
Mickorod Renard: bye eos
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you all for being here and for participating today.
Mickorod Renard: bye Brucie
Aphrodite Macbain: I always imagine you scraping the walls and floor Bruce
druth Vlodovic: you'll end up with nihilistic compassion?
Bruce Mowbray: May all be well and happy.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Tura Brezoianu: every atom in the universe simultaneously explodes, I think
druth Vlodovic: speaking of basilisk I am off to get glared at by standing stones
Aphrodite Macbain: that would be noisy Tura
Mickorod Renard: bye Druth
Eliza Madrigal waves
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
Tura Brezoianu thinks about a standing stone that glares at you
Tura Brezoianu: see you all!
Eliza Madrigal: bye Tura, thanks so much
Mickorod Renard: he he bye Tura
Eliza Madrigal: I need to be up off me bum.... too much driving today
Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: thank you soo much
Eliza Madrigal: appreciate you guys... wonderful session
Eliza Madrigal waves
Mickorod Renard: byeeee