2016.10.13 13:00 - Tread Lightly on (Other People's) Dreams

The Guardians for this meeting were Eliza and Mick. Eliza posted this session and comments are hers. 

STARTING NEXT WEEK:

HEART SUTRA
https://heartofus.wordpress.com/chan...annya-shingyo/

Also: If you enjoy reading the session below, you may like the following as well:
https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2009/03/2009.03.05_13%3a00_-_Dialogue_Fefonz-Pema_%231%3a_Being
Excerpt:
Pema Pera: if we throw out our nets of words and concepts into the sea of reality
Pema Pera: we pull up an empty net
Pema Pera: and we conclude: the nature of the sea is empty
Pema Pera: because we can't catch the fish of reality
 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi :)
Raffila Millgrove: Hello Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: having a little trouble catching up with myself today.... brb...
druth Vlodovic: hey guys

Eliza Madrigal: Sorry about that... it is lovely to see you all, and HELLO
Bruce Mowbray: HELLO!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Druth, you may be in the tiny seat
Bruce Mowbray: YO, mick!
druth Vlodovic: kinda cramped
Eliza Madrigal: I'll bet
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah druthie is in the tiny seat.
Bruce Mowbray: (good for instant weight loss).
Mickorod Renard: Hi Folks
druth Vlodovic: hey mick
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Bruce, Druth, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: hey Druth,,nice t c ya
Eliza Madrigal: I see Aph signed on... hope she will come and we can pick up on her question again?
Eliza Madrigal: Is that okay?
Mickorod Renard: have u been up amazon?
Mickorod Renard: Drutrh?
druth Vlodovic: wandering around
Mickorod Renard: cool
Eliza Madrigal: :)

druth Vlodovic: I just noticed all the devices next door
Eliza Madrigal: devices?
Mickorod Renard: ah the wierd sculptures?
druth Vlodovic: left over from the last event
druth Vlodovic: ok
Mickorod Renard: they will be cleared soon for the stone circle
Eliza Madrigal: oooh, yes! Did you click the notecards?
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Eliza Madrigal nods...gone soon....
druth Vlodovic: not all yet
Eliza Madrigal: was fun
Eliza Madrigal: the next project will be about what we honor/cherish...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen.
Zen Arado: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: fits so nicely with the notion of flourishing doesn't it
druth Vlodovic: I guess it is hard to honour something without cherishing it
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: hi y'all
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Bleu.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu
Zen Arado: Hi Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Aph!
druth Vlodovic: hey bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu!
Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi all
Mickorod Renard: HI Aph
 

Eliza Madrigal: We haven't really settled on a topic yet but I'm still interested in Aph's question and 'flourishing' if others are....
Eliza Madrigal: Or is there another question that comes up?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, good topic.
Aphrodite Macbain: cant remember my question...
Mickorod Renard: it is a good topic,,I am annoyed too as i saw something recently that addressed it well
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: where did we leave off on the topic?
Eliza Madrigal: The question was along the lines of "what do we need to be open hearted?"
Zen Arado: about encounters?
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Eliza Madrigal: I missed last week, but did read the session...lovely
Bleu Oleander: open hearted = flourishing?

 

"Gaslighting"

Bruce Mowbray: I feel that one thing we need to be open-hearted - and to flourish - is not to be in relationships that "gaslight" us.
Bruce Mowbray: I just learned that word this week.
Eliza Madrigal leans in
Bruce Mowbray: Wish I'd known it when I was in my 20's.
Raffila Millgrove: only last week Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: No, only THIS week.
Eliza Madrigal has not yet learned it
Aphrodite Macbain: what does it mean\/
Raffila Millgrove: ah.
Bleu Oleander: what is that?
Bruce Mowbray: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/...n-gaslighting/
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Zen Arado: gaslight?
Raffila Millgrove: comes from the movie... Gaslight. man tries to drive his rich wife crazy...
Bruce Mowbray: Gaslighting is when someone tries to overlay your reality... with theirs, or with something else.
Zen Arado: ah
Aphrodite Macbain: the verb \'to gaslight\' lol
Bruce Mowbray: a form of manipulation.
Raffila Millgrove: comes very close to success...
druth Vlodovic: all sorts of forms ofit
Bruce Mowbray: Yep, it's a verb.
Eliza Madrigal: success? 
Raffila Millgrove: makes the gaslights flicker in the room.. and then.. insists they aren't.. making her thinks she's losing her mind.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Tura!

Bleu Oleander: to varying degrees everyone does that?
Bruce Mowbray: I surely hope not, Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray: But perhaps so.
Tura Brezoianu: sry l8
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura, Bruce is teaching us the term 'gaslighting'
Eliza Madrigal: (some know, others not)
druth Vlodovic: eh, peoplelike to share their own reality with others and insist it is the "right" reality, but to do it deliberately is something else
Bleu Oleander: don't we all try even if ever so slightly to influence the way others see us and their world?

Bruce Mowbray: I will post a definition page, for you, Tura:
Bruce Mowbray: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/...n-gaslighting/

Bruce Mowbray: For sure, Bleu....
Bruce Mowbray: but that's not the same thing as invalidating their reality.
druth Vlodovic: I doubt anybody thinks they have a wrong way of interpreting the world
Bleu Oleander: hmmm, I think it is to an extent
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray ponders.
Eliza Madrigal: a changing way, so never perfect
Bruce Mowbray: I often do it to myself, actually.
Eliza Madrigal still wrapping my mind around it... trying for other than in a political sense
Bleu Oleander: is there a wrong way of interpreting reality?
druth Vlodovic: if you think that changing your view is invalidating your reality then it would make you defensive against new viewpoints and even facts
Bruce Mowbray: In an abusive relationship, ... perhaps.
druth Vlodovic: yes, there is
Zen Arado: perhaps we try to reassure ourselves our perception of reality is the correct one validate ourselves
druth Vlodovic: many wrong ways
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Bleu Oleander: listens
Eliza Madrigal: views that tend toward health vs. unhealth?
druth Vlodovic: that damage oneself and others

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: so you mean wrong morally?
druth Vlodovic: a conventionalist viewpoint I will admit
druth Vlodovic: if it doesn't harm anyone then it is just different than facts,and not necessarily something to change
Zen Arado: we share a conceptual consensus map of the world
Bleu Oleander: well no one has a total handle on reality, right?

Mickorod Renard:

All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible.
T. E. Lawrence

Raffila Millgrove: whew great quote Mic !!
Mickorod Renard: he he
Zen Arado: but might be good or even great dreams?
Bleu Oleander: wow, I don't agree with that quote
Zen Arado: 'I have a dream'
druth Vlodovic: you don't bleu?
Bleu Oleander: dreamers in the day are dangerous?
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking that maybe our view of reality is like our day dream
Bruce Mowbray: Just be sure to check out whether your "dream"[ violates anyone else's "reality..." before you get into a relationship with that person.
Eliza Madrigal swoons...a favorite quote for SL :)
druth Vlodovic: change is dangerous,though more and more we see humans are not designed for a lack of change
Eliza Madrigal: imo, someone will almost always feel harmed in the course of relating and being with others ... so well intended, but impossible to get a handle on
Eliza Madrigal: and if I'm understanding... we can't say 'you aren't really harmed' to another
Eliza Madrigal: without that being gaslighting?

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, ara!
Zen Arado: Hi Ara
druth Vlodovic: hi ara
arabella Ella: Hiya apologies for being late!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
Bleu Oleander: hi Ara
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara, nice mindfulness leading last week! :))
arabella Ella: thanks!
Zen Arado: we're just dreaming
arabella Ella: i love to dream too :)
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles and waves at Ara
Zen Arado: 'tread lightly on other people's dreams'
Eliza Madrigal: :) nice, Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: nicely said Zen
Zen Arado: read that somewhere
Aphrodite Macbain: or quoted :-)
Zen Arado: no idea where
Eliza Madrigal: .... a sweet interpretation of ahimsa (do no harm)
Aphrodite Macbain: how do we tread on others' dreams\\\\/
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Zen Arado: being too critical
Mickorod Renard: we are still on the open hearted bit yeh?...I think if we are open hearted we do just that..we let everyone have their dream
Eliza Madrigal: not really listening, words or other ways
Bruce Mowbray: By saying, "Oh that's JUST a dream!"
Zen Arado: telling them it is impractical
Aphrodite Macbain: or by offering a better one?
Zen Arado: not useful
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: and with ourselves as well
Aphrodite Macbain: Dreams are always useful - especially as motivators
Bruce Mowbray: Sort of like saying, "That's JUST your perception...."
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: or opinion...
Zen Arado: SL was just a dream
Eliza Madrigal: hm, instead of taking a moment to hold the opinion or perception ...
Bruce Mowbray: some similar form of invalidation... with the intent of causing the person to lose faith in herself, etc.
 

Dualities

Aphrodite Macbain: It would be nice if we could move beyond dualities - right or wrong
Zen Arado: it would never work
Aphrodite Macbain: we could think there are a variety of possibilities
Aphrodite Macbain: a variety of truths
Zen Arado: tall poppies get heads cut off'
druth Vlodovic: the insidious part of changing the reality of others is that it is often done with "good intentions"
Aphrodite Macbain: except the ones with strong necks
arabella Ella: or as bullying
Zen Arado: yes get 'brought down to earth'
arabella Ella: or patronising
Mickorod Renard: thinking about myself, I dont think i could be so..open hearted with anyone..they would have to be the same as me..and even that would annoy me
arabella Ella: or narcissism
Bruce Mowbray: or condescension...
arabella Ella nods
Aphrodite Macbain: really Mick\/
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
druth Vlodovic: it is difficult sometimes when you hear someone express a view that you hate to damage but "know" is wrong in some important way
Bruce Mowbray: Could you intentionally make a "container" that could hold you both, Mick? A safe container - that would allow all viewpoints?
Eliza Madrigal: I think you're wrong about that Mick (lol)
Eliza Madrigal: >wink<

Mickorod Renard: I bet thats where one should start..asking wheher one could put up with ones self
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
druth Vlodovic: is it being open hearted to create a container for interaction?
Mickorod Renard: I know it would be too much to expect anyone else to put up with me
arabella Ella: open hearted should have no boundaries
Aphrodite Macbain: yes druth
Mickorod Renard: thats individualism
Bleu Oleander: reading new book on Hitler ... perhaps some points of view ... or day dreams ... should be challenged?
Zen Arado: I go the other way and believe views that are stupid
Zen Arado: in case there might be something in it
Mickorod Renard: I like those too Zen..less boring
Eliza Madrigal: if they could have seen the end result of Hitler maybe they would have?

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: seems much was known ahead of end result tho
Eliza Madrigal: (more) many/some did
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps the approach to certain views would be to ask questions and not give answers- like Socrates
Zen Arado: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent, Aph.
Tura Brezoianu: Ah, "in case there might be something in it". I read something about a year ago that bears on that, I'll see if I can extract a quote...
Zen Arado: knowing is dangerous
Mickorod Renard: yes, great Aph
Eliza Madrigal: I always think of Socrates as aggressive...like a barrister... not sure why
Bruce Mowbray: He was for sure very argumentative...
Zen Arado: but he only challenged people's assumptions
druth Vlodovic: reading his books I keep wanting to punch him in the nose
Eliza Madrigal: as though the questions were breaking someone down, which has its place, but maybe not always?
(stated this wrongly in session... a breaking down of an idea may have a place, but not of a person, or at least I wouldn't feel that I had a place to do that, unless the idea of a person? Ah, gee :::head spins:::)
Aphrodite Macbain: he was aggressive - and very persistent
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: A whole lot of Athenians also wanted to punch him in the nose. Probably a difficult guy to get along with.
Zen Arado: people likke their cozy assumptions
Tura Brezoianu: If you lead the argument, you can take it anywhere
Aphrodite Macbain: people dont like to answer difficult questions
druth Vlodovic: it would be fun to play out one of those books as an actual conversation

Inner or Outer Voices

Tura Brezoianu: But here's a quote, about not being led around by inner or outer voices:
Aphrodite Macbain: The Symposium is a good place to start druth
Tura Brezoianu: It is "Eliezer Yudkowsky's Cognitive Trope Therapy"
Mickorod Renard: Phillosophy is about raising questions I think,,and as such someone has to take the role of devils advocate
druth Vlodovic: umm,if you are not led by the inner or outer then what is left?
Tura Brezoianu: He says:

"I have invented a new form of psychotherapy I call it Cognitive Trope Therapy the way it works is that when you have a thought, you write it down like, say “You are different from the others. You will never know their innocence… and that is why you should hate your own existence. Die. Die. Die.” then you figure out whether, if your life were a fantasy novel, these words would be spoken by figures wearing black robes, and speaking in a dry, whispering voice, and they are actually withered beings who touched the Stone of Evil and if so then you don’t listen"

Zen Arado: I have to go to an art opening
Eliza Madrigal smiles at title, reads
Aphrodite Macbain: nice Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: whose?
Zen Arado: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlif...29/68/141/2642
druth Vlodovic: lol
Bleu Oleander: ah went by to see that yesterday

Tura Brezoianu: And on

"but it might have a point: "I know what you are thinking you are thinking “but what if the whispering voice seems like it might have a point” and to this I say there are various stages of life, mood, and skill where you may be better off JUST NOT LISTENING TO ANYTHING THE LONE POWER WHISPERS INTO YOUR EAR AT NIGHT even if it “SOUNDS LIKE IT MIGHT HAVE A POINT”"

Tura Brezoianu:

The whole thing is at http://yudowsky.tumblr.come/post/103...-trope-therapy

Zen Arado: Friendly Reminder : Dear Friend ---> THIS EVENING, October 13th at 1.30 SLT : Opening of our Installation at The BRAVE LEA 29 : “HUMANITY : TO LIVE OR NOT TO LIVE – that is the question…” (Our ecosystem needs help !!!) With the superb music of Yadleen Hoping you’ll find some time to come and to visit our artwork : we’ll feel honored by your presence… : * :-) :-) :-) http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlif...29/68/141/2642
arabella Ella: Enjoy Zen lovely to see you here too!
Zen Arado: byee
Bleu Oleander: have fun Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Zen
Tura Brezoianu: bye Zen
Eliza Madrigal waves to Zen
Mickorod Renard: bye Zen
Bruce Mowbray: bye Zen.

druth Vlodovic: "if I were a book,what sort of book would I be?"
druth Vlodovic: odd
Eliza Madrigal: Tura is the writer saying pay attention to feeling rather than the outward appearance...?
Eliza Madrigal: or just be suspect?
Aphrodite Macbain: by paying attention to our own feelings, do we get to know the other better?
Tura Brezoianu: I thnk it's more distancing oneself from the situation and viewing it as a story that you're watching. If it was a psychological horror thriller, would you be yelling at the character to ignore the person saying these things, they are evil and you should get away from them at once?
Bleu Oleander: perhaps placing your thoughts on the lips of fictional characters makes them easier to see ?
Eliza Madrigal: ah, what the audience knows!
Tura Brezoianu: BTW, it helps to have browsed the tvtropes.com web site, but that comes with a health warning, it can be a bottomless time sink :)
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: a third party observer
druth Vlodovic: we treat ourselves differently than we treat others
Eliza Madrigal: haha Tura, yes I watch a certain kind of tv that repeats them quite obviously... fascinating

Mickorod Renard: Didnt Pema say something on the lines of viewing like watching a video?
Bruce Mowbray agrees with druth: I am FAR harsher to myself than I am with others.
Mickorod Renard: trying to think now
arabella Ella: he did Mick
Eliza Madrigal: the screen and light and story analogy?
arabella Ella: cant remember exactly what though
Raffila Millgrove: Thank you Tura. that was fascinating quotes and observations and worth (to me at least) going over to explore at later time. Ty for bringing it up!
Bruce Mowbray: "Letting yourself be seen," Mick?
arabella Ella: something related to being seeing
Aphrodite Macbain: the cave Eliza?
Bruce Mowbray: afk for a sec...
Mickorod Renard: not sure Bruce
druth Vlodovic: being being is a different sort of goal, which is hard to take notes on
Eliza Madrigal: the film analogy is interesting... going to look for that in another context, brb

druth Vlodovic: so we write a lot about seeing and wonder why it feelslike we are missing something
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Mickorod Renard: so much we do is so spontaneous tho
arabella Ella: Pema would tell us to look at something like a bird or a cloud and imagine if that [object or whatever] was seeing us
Bruce Mowbray: exactly, ara.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah - being seen
arabella Ella: that was being seeing or playing as being
arabella Ella: I still do it sometimes
Aphrodite Macbain: I often blush when I do. :-)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
arabella Ella smiles
Bruce Mowbray avoid mirrors at all cost.
Mickorod Renard: that would in some way be like treating our phsical self as like an avatar?
arabella Ella: not necessarily Mick
arabella Ella: simply getting a different perspective on oneself
Bruce Mowbray listens....
arabella Ella: perhaps a much more simple one
arabella Ella: life can be too complex and too fuzy at times
arabella Ella: so it is fun to play as being
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel I'm acting I someone else if I do that
Mickorod Renard: seems a wierd feeling thinking I could do that in mainstream contacts with people
arabella Ella: it is also a type of phenomenology
arabella Ella: thinking more with the heart, with perception, ignoring the rational and complex
arabella Ella: including a particular focus which blocks out other distracting throughts
Bruce Mowbray: taking things at face-value? perceptions, simply as they appear?
arabella Ella: to some extent yes Bruce

--BELL--

arabella Ella: how would we as beings appear if a star were to be perceiving us?
Aphrodite Macbain: hard to do
arabella Ella: we did this for many months if not years when Pema was still around
Aphrodite Macbain: a star?
arabella Ella: a star is just one example
Aphrodite Macbain: and not our cat?
Bruce Mowbray: I hope this doesn't sound too philosophical, but "being" for me is a substrate -- underneath the appearances, the secondary qualities, if you will.
arabella Ella: i love to look towards the heavens so that is simply me

Mickorod Renard: I am often having distracting thoughts..but nothing worse than when I have a self concious awareness of myself talking jibberish
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Bruce Mowbray: lol.
arabella Ella nods to Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: (been there, done that).
Mickorod Renard: usually happens if I am on camera
arabella Ella: and what's wrong with that Mick, absolutely nothing, most of us do it too
Bruce Mowbray: A camera is a mirror that others can see you through.
druth Vlodovic: I wonder if anybody else notices
arabella Ella: cameras tend to make many very self conscious though i dont think it is the right way to look at this as it tends to be rather artificial - using a camera I mean and the consequences

Bruce Mowbray: So, how to be open-hearted in our encounters with this self-consciousness?
Mickorod Renard: I am sure this is where mindfulness comes in..like one needs to know that from the heart there is a correctness in ones operation
arabella Ella: cameras also tend to make some of us feel we are going to be critically judged which is not a nice feeling IMHO
Bruce Mowbray: It helps me to remember that Great Space has room for everything.
arabella Ella: open hearted means being accepting, open, mindful, not critical
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, ara.
arabella Ella: but Mick there is no 'correctness'

Aphrodite Macbain: being open hearted can make you vulnerable
arabella Ella: what one does is good for oneself if one feels it is so
arabella Ella: oh yes it def can Aph and that is a huge problem but should we go there now?
Aphrodite Macbain: It is an issue for me....
Mickorod Renard: yes, the vulnerability is why if one is by nature , genuine, then that is acceptable
arabella Ella: for me too
Bruce Mowbray: me too, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: how can we be loving and generous and at the same time be open hearted?
Aphrodite Macbain: there will be times when things will hurt
Eliza Madrigal gave up looking for references a while ago (will try later) and is listening closely
Mickorod Renard: caring for others is in some way an attachment
Aphrodite Macbain: we need to build in an inner resilience but not toughness
arabella Ella: perhaps ... considering the fact that happiness would not be what it is for us if we never knew pain?
Eliza Madrigal: nice distinction Aph
Bruce Mowbray: I have this "belief-faith" that being loving and generous are their own rewards.... In other words, that they do not expect or need a pleasant response from others.
Aphrodite Macbain: true
Aphrodite Macbain: but are they Bruce?
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes one doesn't really feel vulnerable, yet is, realized later... as though poisoned
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Pema Chodron says: "Soft front - Strong back."
Mickorod Renard: compassion without attachment
Aphrodite Macbain: like an ink stain
Aphrodite Macbain: that doesnt go away
arabella Ella: I tell myself that being the way I am and not being tempted into acting in 'bad' ways helps me to sleep with a clean conscience at night
druth Vlodovic: to care for others while being detached would mean being detached from potential emotional consequences of one's own pain and disappointment
Bruce Mowbray: yes, it could, druth.

Raffila Millgrove: I don't think we are very self-aware of our perspectives....or those of others.. questioning our assumptions... I recall bringing up the forgivenesss... that people can and do operate without.. that as a core value.. and I noted that our own very flexible..openminded group here had a very hard time, imagining what letting go of the concept of forgiveness might mean.. what outcomes might be possible.
Mickorod Renard: thats perhaps the essence Ara, concience...if you act genuine then one shouldnt feel suffering for ones actions
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes someone else points out my transgressions, and it is only when they do that I realize I have.
Aphrodite Macbain: transgressed
arabella Ella: none of us are perfect Aph
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, Aph. so true.
Aphrodite Macbain: some people feel guilt more strongly than others
druth Vlodovic: forgiveness has dependencies on others and is not always appropriate, not sure what the answer is
Aphrodite Macbain: forgiving oneself
Bruce Mowbray: When I join a new group, I demand to know the RULES -- in order to know my boundaries and not to transgress them.
Eliza Madrigal: I read a silly snippet article the other day.... where Gwynneth Paltrow talks about her father telling her, after she won a big award, that she was turning into an asshole. :) She cites it as an exceptional moment that altered her life going forward. Still, I think that was only OK because he'd spent a lifetime supporting her you know :)
Aphrodite Macbain: rules and values
Mickorod Renard: without wanting to convert this to buddhism there is the 8 fold way
Bruce Mowbray: (for example, saying that I need to go in order to work for Hillary....)
Mickorod Renard: or something
Aphrodite Macbain: say more Mick?
Raffila Millgrove: ooh the hour is nearly gone.. it goes so fast. you have to go already Bruce? take cre.

arabella Ella: Many of us are brought up and raised to feel excessive guilt and it is not easy to get ourselves out of that rut but it is not impossible!
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Raffi
Bruce Mowbray: No, that was on Tuesday, Raffi. Not today.
druth Vlodovic: even being afraid of transgressing is offensive to some groups, because it means that the group is not accepting and able to accept you as a person
Raffila Millgrove: oh ok....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking that their system of like purifying ones nature and moral stance gives way to a freedom from wrong actions
Mickorod Renard: Aph
Raffila Millgrove: Raffi was saying a premature "bye" to Bruce. She's not going anywhere for a few minutes at least...
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Mickorod Renard: bye bruce
Bruce Mowbray: I'M HERE, folks!
Mickorod Renard: Bye Raffi
druth Vlodovic: :P
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Eliza Madrigal: hhaha
arabella Ella giggles
Mickorod Renard: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: laughs

Bleu Oleander: that's just your reality Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers!

THE BELL!

Aphrodite Macbain: Are we no longer paying attention to the bell?
arabella Ella: we should
Mickorod Renard: naaaaaaaa
Eliza Madrigal: yes we should :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bleu Oleander: oops, sorry bell
Bruce Mowbray: We should turn on our sounds, then.
Eliza Madrigal: we dropped it for TSK but I tried to pick it up...
Aphrodite Macbain: are we bad if we dont?
Raffila Millgrove: i think we are.. but i thought.. it was over.. when nothing happened after Mic's comment.. so i added mine and we got Shhh'd. raffi sighs.
Bruce Mowbray loves Mick's "Naaaaaa."
Eliza Madrigal: we can be supportive with one another in efforts but also accepting of imperfections
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: fortunately the bell is resilient
Eliza Madrigal: AND....
Bleu Oleander: gotta go all, take care! nice to see you all
Eliza Madrigal:

Pema Pera: it's like a movie
Pema Pera: if you really would believe that people are being killed in front of you, you couldn't appreciate all the details
Pema Pera: but since you know it is a movie, you can actually fully go into all the human emotions entering in it
Pema Pera: so inherent emptiness enhances appreciation
Pema Pera: it was only after learning to see it in this radical way that I finally began to understand what the heart sutra was saying
Pema Pera: before that it was mostly inspiring poetry
https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_logs/2009/03/2009.03.30_07%3a00_-_Pema's_%22Weave_of_the_Tapestry_of_Light%22

Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Bleu.
Aphrodite Macbain: nice
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu gtsy
Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: waves at the empty space
Eliza Madrigal: that's one way of his saying it.... but there are a few....about switching to the light rather than the story at times
Eliza Madrigal: realizing the projection
Mickorod Renard: oh, thanks Eliza..so there is something in Pema's thinking
Bruce Mowbray: What Pema said there reminds me very much of meditation... just watching it come and go.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: rising and dissolving, and knowing that
Aphrodite Macbain: detached
Bruce Mowbray: yep.
Eliza Madrigal: funnily, earlier today I found a quote in a box, that I had framed, but put away a few years ago:

The mind mirror is clear so there are no obstacles
its brilliance illuminates the universe to the depths
and in every grain of sand.

Multitudinous things of the cosmos
are reflected in the mind,
And this full clarity is beyond inner and outer.
-Song of Enlightenment 

Mickorod Renard: I wonder if we could dig out 'heart sutra ' for next week?

Bruce Mowbray: I think part of my "problem" in relationships is that I tend to be passionate about things I really care about...
Aphrodite Macbain: I would like to be able to feel joy and happiness but not pain. Is that possible?
Bruce Mowbray: and I wish others would be passionate about what THEY care about....
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes people are ill, or tired... battered....
Eliza Madrigal: so can't show their passion :)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, for sure.
arabella Ella: I dont think so Aph but there are people working on that
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: It seems unlikely
arabella Ella: there is always hope
Eliza Madrigal: drive through menu - happiness and joy, no pain....hm
Aphrodite Macbain: we are either open or closed
arabella Ella: no in between?
Aphrodite Macbain: ajar?
Aphrodite Macbain: adjar?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella smiles

Mickorod Renard: I think the pain adds quality to the joy and happiness..although my arthritis argues with that
arabella Ella: maybe
druth Vlodovic: you have to be careful about thinking someone has a specific opinion based on body language, not everyone expresses passion the same way
Tura Brezoianu: Pain is a warning. If it didn't hurt, it wouldn't be a warning
Eliza Madrigal nods...
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: cant have one without the other
Eliza Madrigal: many paradoxes... the most present people I know are often 'lonely' too...
druth Vlodovic: persistence of pain is largely within our control
Bruce Mowbray: Dharma teachers ofetn recommend that we go to places of extreme suffering - prisons, charnal grounds, etc.... and learn our "Joy" there.
Mickorod Renard: so, what about next week?
druth Vlodovic: or so they say
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Mick

Tura Brezoianu: Pain that doesn't hurt would be like a fire alarm that makes a soothing noise
Aphrodite Macbain: it's dualistic thinking that creates the problem. \there can be many solutions
Aphrodite Macbain: pain AND pleasure
Eliza Madrigal thinks of the alarm she ripped the battery out of last week that is still gutted on the table....lol
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Mickorod Renard: sado masochism?
Aphrodite Macbain: did it go off when the toast burned\/
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bruce Mowbray: Hurricanes can do that to one, Eliza.
Tura Brezoianu: yes, alarms can go wrong, and pain isn't always functional
Eliza Madrigal: just needed to be replaced....beep...beep....beep....
Eliza Madrigal: beep....
Bruce Mowbray: My fire alarms go off whenever I make popcorn.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Aphrodite Macbain: replace the battery
druth Vlodovic: I sometimes think I should hide bread all over the house in case it burns down,nothing else seems to set the things off
Eliza Madrigal: that would seem the obvious thing, Aph, but... well there seems to be a little game going on ;-)

Eliza Madrigal: I'm happy to do Heart Sutra Mick, btw, but is everyone okay with being buddhisty for a while more?
Bruce Mowbray: sure!
arabella Ella: buddhisty?
Bruce Mowbray: (speaking for myself, of course)
Mickorod Renard: the more I look at it the more it looks christian anyway
Mickorod Renard: or hindu
Eliza Madrigal: oh, interesting
Bruce Mowbray: "The Perennial Philosophy"?. Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yes, he he
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: all food for the mind
Eliza Madrigal: maybe we can read the text and then share first thoughts next week, and continue with it for about 5 weeks?
Bruce Mowbray: I had to venture into Eastern religious traditions before I had the slightest idea of what Western religion was talking about.
Aphrodite Macbain prepares to be buddhisty
Mickorod Renard: should we suggest that we ..for homework,,try and look it up?
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Eliza Madrigal: would be nice to pre-read
arabella Ella: look up what?
Bruce Mowbray: cool: HEART SUTRA.
Eliza Madrigal: there are a few translations as well
Mickorod Renard: heart sutra
druth Vlodovic: specific text or trust the internet?
Eliza Madrigal: I'll send a link in emails so that we are on similar page
Bruce Mowbray: great. TY, Eliza.
Aphrodite Macbain makes a note: "Heart sutra"
Mickorod Renard: oh anything will do,,who knows if its legit
Eliza Madrigal: :)

druth Vlodovic: "everyone post their source so we don't have duplicates"
Bruce Mowbray: I should probably be scraping up supper now. THANKS everyone for a fine session.
Mickorod Renard: we could bring a mix in

Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bruce, happy dining
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now.
arabella Ella: bye Bruce!
Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: a mix?
arabella Ella: say hi to Blub!
Eliza Madrigal: aw...yes where is Blub...
Mickorod Renard: a mix of sorce
Mickorod Renard: sauce
Mickorod Renard: sorce
Eliza Madrigal: secret sauce
Mickorod Renard: souce
arabella Ella: source?
druth Vlodovic: blub sauce
Mickorod Renard: ah thats it
Eliza Madrigal grins
druth Vlodovic: poor thing
arabella Ella: never
Aphrodite Macbain: time to prepare dinner....if u have a recipe for secret sauce, whisper it to me
Mickorod Renard: well, thank you folks, fun night again
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Tura Brezoianu: thanks everyone
Mickorod Renard: nosh well Aph
arabella Ella: I must go too lovely to see you all good night everyone!

Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone :) this session could probably be re read from a hundred angles
Mickorod Renard: bye Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Mick
druth Vlodovic: 'evening all
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight all
Mickorod Renard: yes, I was thinking that eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: Mick
Eliza Madrigal: I need to go as well... so much fun to have so many here today
Mickorod Renard: bye druth
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Aphrodite Macbain: ♥ ♥ ♥
Mickorod Renard: bye eliza, thanks again
Eliza Madrigal: bye and THANKS
Raffila Millgrove: bye all.
Mickorod Renard: bye raffi