The Guardian for this meeting was Mick. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.

Raffila Millgrove: Hey Mick.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Storm.
Storm Nordwind: Hi!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Storm
Mickorod Renard: I am a bit sleepy at the mo..nodded off a few times
Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".
Raffila Millgrove: it's late where you are?
Storm Nordwind: 9 o'clock there?
Mickorod Renard: yes, 9pm
Raffila Millgrove: HI Bruce.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bru ce
Storm Nordwind: Hey Bruce
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Tura.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mick, Storm, and Raffi.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Tura
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Tura.
Storm Nordwind: Hi Tura :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi all, thanks for the reminder Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: np. good to see you.
Mickorod Renard: ah, you sent a reminder Raffi, well done
Raffila Millgrove: nah I didn't do official.i just saw Tura online and remind her IM wise.
Mickorod Renard: I wasnt sure anyone would turn up and also wasnt sure whether a Monday session would complicate Thursday
Mickorod Renard: ah
Raffila Millgrove: right. well i think you said MIck that official is Thurs and we can show up to chat on Monday.. if we're out and about.
Storm Nordwind: I guess we'll see!
Bruce Mowbray: I was wondering the same thing, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: brb, kid crying upstairs
Raffila Millgrove: well that is what the deal is. Thurs is official book club day.. but Monday anyone who likes to chat on it.. or whatever can drop in too.
Bruce Mowbray: cool.
Mickorod Renard: back
Raffila Millgrove: and also we might use Monday in case we don't .. get around to everyone on the Thurs. .. if we need more time.
Mickorod Renard: I managed to read all the section prescribed
Bruce Mowbray: me too.
Bruce Mowbray: I have a request, Mick.
Mickorod Renard: was away too
Mickorod Renard: yes Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: It might be easier for folks to follow if we gave them headings - as well as line numbers.
Bruce Mowbray: my text has no line numbers but it has lots and lots of headings.
Bruce Mowbray: and titles of sections, is what I mean.
Storm Nordwind: ditto
Mickorod Renard: ah, I thought I had
Bruce Mowbray: I will pull it up now.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ags
Agatha Macbeth: Greetings
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, agger.
Mickorod Renard: let me look at me note card
Mickorod Renard: week one: lines after prologue 'the conference of the birds' 616 ------1596 week two : lines 1597---------2318 choose a leader week three: lines 2318--------3270 the phoenix week four: lines 3270-----------4130 Zuleikha has Joseph whipped week five: lines 4130 ---------end The Journey
Bruce Mowbray: I think the first section starts with "Dear hoopoe, welcome! You will be our guide; "
Bruce Mowbray: yes thank you that helps a lot.
Agatha Macbeth: Zuleikha sounds interesting :p
Mickorod Renard: I may not have managed to give cards to all but I pasted a copy in an email to all
Bruce Mowbray: you have us reading about 900 lines per week.... was that your intention?
Bruce Mowbray: between 800 and 900 lines per week
Mickorod Renard: well, I was unsure of the take up and I didnt want folks put off by duration
Bruce Mowbray: okay.
Mickorod Renard: however I was worried about too much reading to report on
Mickorod Renard: and I would be happy to do one story at a time
Mickorod Renard: or poem section
Mickorod Renard: its open to adjustment
Mickorod Renard: I would like to disect it lots
Bruce Mowbray: I would too.
Mickorod Renard: also, the final part of our prescribed read was quite anti Christian and I worry folk may get offended
Raffila Millgrove: well we can start off on Thurs and see what happens?
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: I am Christian and can happily cope with that
Storm Nordwind: I am atheist and am managing to cope with it all ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: I think he is criticizing the same thing in Judaism and Christianity that he criticizes in Islam.
Bruce Mowbray: pride, religiosity, dependence on outer appearances, that sort of thing
Mickorod Renard: I am hoping so, and that there is an universal wisdom
Bruce Mowbray: yes, and I'm sure your hopes will be fulfilled....
Bruce Mowbray: although I have some criticisms of the poem myself.
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Bruce Mowbray: let's wait for the bell to ring again.
Raffila Millgrove: if someone says something to me directly that I will consider offended me? but if I chose to read a poem that is written by a Muslim sect or demonimination etc (Sufi) I will expect that it will be anti-Christian. Islam is anti-Christian in the same way that Christian is anti-Muslim. Meaning the official spokespersons of both religions have long histories of affirming the slaughter of those who are not believers. It's equal both ways.
Mickorod Renard: would you like to share Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: I will say just a few things
Tura Brezoianu listens
Bruce Mowbray: the hoopoe encourages the birds to leave where they are and to fly . .
Bruce Mowbray: I realize this is allegorical, of course,
Mickorod Renard: nods
Bruce Mowbray: but he also is quite critical of their unique foibles
Bruce Mowbray: is he implying that they need to stop being themselves and go somewhere else?
Bruce Mowbray: transcend their current situation?
Bruce Mowbray: Is it an escapist poem?
Bruce Mowbray: That is not the way I understand mysticism.
Bruce Mowbray: [ done, for now]
Storm Nordwind: Bruce do you see transformation as synonymous with escapism?
Tura Brezoianu: I guess the hoopoe would say they are finding their true selves, and the selves they are clinging onto are false selves
Bruce Mowbray: I think transformation could not be escapist....
Mickorod Renard: he he , I too wondered this Bruce, and even sought to fit myself into a catorgory. In the end I saw it as just an encouragement to take the plunge if one seeks to experience an adventure
Bruce Mowbray: in fact real transformation is not escapist...
Bruce Mowbray: by "taking the plunge" do you mean surrender?
Mickorod Renard: no, proberby a relection helps the transformation
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps the hoopoe (rather uncompassionately in my mind) is advocating that they "drop" things, perhaps similarly to PaB?
Mickorod Renard: a leap of faith also
Bruce Mowbray: I agree with Tura. . . but I'm not sure I would call them false selves. I am calling them character foibles. . . . I also agree with Storm that they are being asked to drop something
Bruce Mowbray: but I still filled there is a strong dualism going on - in the form of judgment.
Bruce Mowbray: feel*
Mickorod Renard: yes, the dropping of attachments is very pab
Storm Nordwind: The foibles are what they have. They are being asked to drop what they have to see what they are.
Storm Nordwind: On the other hand, the hoopoe is making a presumption that he knows what the they wil discover they are.
Mickorod Renard: I guess we all find a place of comfort even if its not ideal
Bruce Mowbray: okay, if the birds are truly to have a mystical union with the divine, is it necessary for them to dis-identify, transcend and abandon their foibles - the very thing that gives each bird its unique identity in the poem?
Raffila Millgrove: oh great questions Bruce!
Agatha Macbeth: Moses had the same problem with getting people to move their butts across the desert
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Aggers.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Raff
Storm Nordwind: The poet would have us believe that, Bruce. Personally I don't agree, but it seems that's the way it's going.
Tura Brezoianu: Submersion in the divine is the endpoint of Islamic mysticism
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Storm, I agree with you.
Mickorod Renard: yes Ags, this in a way was why I back tracked and decided it was purly motivationsl
Bruce Mowbray: well union with the divine seems to be a common thread through all mystical traditions.
Agatha Macbeth nods
Mickorod Renard: before you find you have to seek?
Tura Brezoianu: One must give up everything for love (I assume spiritual love, and the lusting after princesses is a metaphor).
Storm Nordwind: Not if you start at the end!
Bruce Mowbray: "You will be gone, and only God will be."
Mickorod Renard: he he
Tura Brezoianu: Respectability, standing, property, even faith and Islam.
Tura Brezoianu: As in the long story about Sheikh San'an.
Bruce Mowbray: this is so reminiscent of Jesus parables....
Mickorod Renard: the eye of a needle stuff?
Bruce Mowbray: I was thinking of selling everything to purchase the Pearl of great price -- the Kingdom of Heaven material
Bruce Mowbray: also, the parable about the widow's mite, and yes, easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven.... most of the parables steam to have a mystical quality to them.
Bruce Mowbray: seem*
Bruce Mowbray: but is the remedy to stop being yourself?
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: maybe we loose ourself and need to find ourself
Bruce Mowbray: What if our uniqueness - our daemon - our souls code, if you will, is a divine spark in itself?
Bruce Mowbray: A Dharma gate...?
Storm Nordwind: If your uniqueness contravenes the regimentation of the relevant religion, Attar would say not Bruce.
Mickorod Renard: I often harp back to my childhood and think I would have been better person if had not I been forced to meet others expectations
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh, the formal regimentation of religion . . . that seems exactly what the hoopoe criticizes most, as did Jesus.
Storm Nordwind: And yet the Sheik's story reinforces it
Bruce Mowbray: when we observe the "genius" of great artists - or great persons of any field - we often find that their genius was criticized mightily by the traditional, conservative and respected people of that field.
Bruce Mowbray: rebellion seemed necessary -- but not anarchy -- instead, devotion to one's " divine spark" or " genius" --- seems to be the seed of greatness.
Bruce Mowbray: Jesus is an excellent example of that.
Storm Nordwind: So - one lesson is that geniuses are rarely conservatives? ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: as his Picasso, Einstein, and so many more.
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Bruce Mowbray: I would say that it genius could be conservative . . . but that her/his "divine spark" is what motivates rather than allegiance to the tradition or the rules.
Bruce Mowbray: and I'm saying that the birds foibles could be there divine spark.
Bruce Mowbray: their*
Bruce Mowbray: ( Dragon doesn't know the three there's, theirs, or they'res
Bruce Mowbray: sry.
Mickorod Renard: I am hoping that during their journey they discover their own individualness has strengths they need for the group
Agatha Macbeth: Tell him to stick to guarding treasure Brucie
Bruce Mowbray: I would hope so too, Mick.
Bruce Mowbray: that it's important to take the poem for what it says, not for what I wish it said.
Mickorod Renard: it has made mty taste buds water as far as reading on is concerned....yes, that is important for me,,as I do have wishes
Storm Nordwind: Well, as I said last week, Attar seems to create the birds characters as strawmen just to knock them down. It seems to be just his story technique to give himself a platform to moralize.
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Storm, again.
Mickorod Renard: or is he creating a starting platform introducing diferent characters that we can identify with?
Bruce Mowbray: for sure he is, Mick.
Storm Nordwind: Did you identify with any, Mick? I have to say I did not.
Mickorod Renard: he he , all of them Storm
Storm Nordwind: Well that's telling Mick
Mickorod Renard: do I need to be concerned..he he
Storm Nordwind: because in isolating their foibles as separate characters, they each lose credibility
Storm Nordwind: They are no longer believable because they are too simple, not complex like real beings
Tura Brezoianu: I see the birds not as characters, but as representations of various obstacles to following the path.
Bruce Mowbray: so the foibles are obstacles . . . agreed.
Tura Brezoianu: None of them have any charcter development, the poem isn't really a story overall
Tura Brezoianu: The whole thing is a parable, and the stories within it also.
Storm Nordwind: True. Possibly a missed opportunity there, But in the context of the 12th century, maybe understandable
Mickorod Renard: I am taking that tack,,and at any time I as a person can find an excuse to not do something,,depending on mood or whatever
Mickorod Renard: and yet, often i am the motivator too
Raffila Millgrove: I think so too Tura.
Bruce Mowbray: I guess it's important not to take it too literally, since it is an allegory/ parable . . . so each character flaw is a symbol of a way of being in the world that needs to be overcome or transformed?
Bruce Mowbray: I've only read a few sections of it so far, but one thing that seems curious to me is that none of the birds have any desire to stop being the way they are . . .
Mickorod Renard: I was tempted and am still looking at archtypes..just in case there is something in that
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: There's definitely something in it Mick :p
Bruce Mowbray: often with mystics, there is a hunger for the divine that is so overwhelming that they are willing to make enormous sacrifices to quench that hunger. these birds don't seem hungry at all for radical transformation.
Mickorod Renard: and yet as I am so changable in myslef I am not sure everyone has to be an archtype
Storm Nordwind: Mich, someone has probably used the archetypes to make a conference of the birds Tarot! ;)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I hope so
Tura Brezoianu: And yet they are inspired by the hoopoe, at least until the point comes of actually setting out on the journey
Bruce Mowbray: archetypes don't have to be static . . .
Mickorod Renard: ah!
Bruce Mowbray: if you think of the Greek gods, for example, is archetypal, their behavior is anything but static.
Bruce Mowbray: as archytypal.
Storm Nordwind: Inspired? Or bludgeoned into shame?
Mickorod Renard: the hoopoe does convince them to go on the journey..for those not there yet
Mickorod Renard: otherwise the book wouldnt be complete
Agatha Macbeth: Weren't Arthur's knights a bit iffy about looking for the Grail in the beginning?
Bruce Mowbray: I haven't read that far, but perhaps the birds develop a hunger later in the poem --- a hunger that motivates them to move toward the Divine, as it were.
Mickorod Renard: good poit Ags
Bruce Mowbray: some of Jesus' disciples were also resistant.
Mickorod Renard: thats another book we could do
Tura Brezoianu: The hoopoe answers all their objections, and then they set out.
Agatha Macbeth: The Bible?
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Mickorod Renard: very true Bruce
Mickorod Renard: king Arthur
Agatha Macbeth: Lots of material in there!
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps my resistance to the poem itself is my foible/ my fault. . . something I need to drop.
Agatha Macbeth: Why resistance Brucie?
Bruce Mowbray: I just have a different concept of mysticism, I guess.
Bruce Mowbray: but here's some lines from the poem that talk about hunger or thirst:
Bruce Mowbray: No one can share the grief with which I seek our longed-for Lord, and quickened by my haste My wits find water in the trackless waste.
Agatha Macbeth: You were resisting like the birds then :p
Storm Nordwind: It doesn't seem like resistance to me Bruce. It seems like a valuable viewpoint.
Bruce Mowbray: yes I am resisting like the birds, and that resistance is my foible, so to speak
Bruce Mowbray: thank you, Storm.
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Raffila Millgrove: Bruce .. what exactly are you resisting?
Raffila Millgrove: seriously.
Storm Nordwind: No hoopoe here is going to shame you into dropping your foible Bruce. ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: I guess I am too deeply entranced by and entrenched in Jungian or Hillman's thinking about our wounds as Windows to the soul . . . the importance of Shadow, and all that.
Agatha Macbeth: foible ˈfɔɪb(ə)l/Submit noun 1. a minor weakness or eccentricity in someone's character. "they have to tolerate each other's little foibles" synonyms: weakness, weak point, weak spot, failing, shortcoming, flaw, imperfection, blemish, fault, defect, frailty, infirmity, inadequacy, limitation; quirk, kink, idiosyncrasy, eccentricity, peculiarity, abnormality; Achilles heel, chink in one's armour; informalhang-up
Bruce Mowbray: yes, aggers, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
Agatha Macbeth: For the record...
Raffila Millgrove: ok. but to resist ..something or someone must be... forcing, coercing, attempting to change you. You see yourself as somehow in the story. You can't read it as tho looking for understanding a different viewpoint?
Bruce Mowbray: that's what I find most interesting in people . . . their quirks and foibles.
Agatha Macbeth has plenty of quirks
Mickorod Renard: I started to question things like the reference to Christian and the fact it was a woman seducer and so forth.....and thinking that I could feel the tension between cultural diferences
Mickorod Renard: I secretly like my bad bits
Agatha Macbeth: Quirk strangeness and charm
Raffila Millgrove: I am looking at it that way. Observing. I don't feel any need to change myself, but seeing it as someone teaching lessons within a framework different from my own.
Raffila Millgrove: I guess I would say I am not looking to make connections between myself and the material.
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps I need to suspend my disbelief a bit more than I have.
Mickorod Renard: nor me, but I do adhere to an idea that we are what we eat..as in what we read too
Agatha Macbeth: Nuts?
Mickorod Renard: ohha hazel nuts
Raffila Millgrove: so true, but if i read something to learn how others are thinking.. why they think that way etc. It doesn't become part of who I am.. it only becomes part of my knowledge base.
Storm Nordwind: I wouldn't say you have to suspend disbelief Bruce. Being open to an allegory doesn't mean you have to take on the fable as your own belief.
Agatha Macbeth: Good point Raff
Raffila Millgrove: I read a lot of stuff that I wildly disagree with but .. I do it because i want to know "why" does someone else think that way.
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, Storm, but as with any science fiction story, I need to not take it to literally...
Bruce Mowbray: too*
Mickorod Renard: that is my motivation too raffi, not hurt me yet,,i think
Raffila Millgrove: I personally feel very uncomfortable with radical right, radical left, fanatics of all stripes even stuff like vegans etc.. but I want to know.. why do they think this way. what's their reasoning etc.
Storm Nordwind: Compassion for others comes in part from making the effort to understand them. You don't have to take on anything of their life to further that.
Agatha Macbeth nods
Mickorod Renard: agree
Bruce Mowbray: sodas compassion for ourselves require that, Storm.
Bruce Mowbray: so does*
Storm Nordwind: I like the sodas version!
Mickorod Renard: he he
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Agatha Macbeth: Give me a squirt
Bruce Mowbray: my kingdom for a Coke!
Mickorod Renard: well, I thought we would have nothing to discuss.....wow
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: Well u wuz wrong
Mickorod Renard: Ags, control yourself
Storm Nordwind: hehe
Raffila Millgrove: hehe. it's us MIck! we'll always have something to discuss.
Agatha Macbeth: Why?
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: No fun in that
Bruce Mowbray: I love Agatha's quirkiness.
Agatha Macbeth smiles bashfully
Bruce Mowbray: it is her divine spark, in my way of thinking.
Storm Nordwind: Self-understanding must certainly be an ingredient in compassion for oneself Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: and what better to examine then are quirkiness...
Mickorod Renard: well, on Thursday perhaps we can discuss breaking the sections up into smaller bits?
Agatha Macbeth: Ok
Bruce Mowbray: owed here is this hour gone already?
Bruce Mowbray: time for me to be scraping up supper.
Agatha Macbeth: Time to be a scraping Brucie
Mickorod Renard: would anyone like to take a look at that?
Raffila Millgrove: yep. it went by so fast as always.
Tura Brezoianu: Can I share a frivolous YouTube link? Sort of relevant.
Bruce Mowbray: see you all on Thursday.
Mickorod Renard: cheers everyone
Mickorod Renard: thanks for coming
Raffila Millgrove: please do. Tura.
Storm Nordwind: Looks like both days are required, not optional!
Agatha Macbeth: I knew we wouldn't get through without a link :P
Mickorod Renard: yes please Tura
Tura Brezoianu: The Spooky Men's Chorus...
Raffila Millgrove: wow. how fun!
Tura Brezoianu: singing an ancient Sufi song...
Mickorod Renard: cool
Agatha Macbeth: Spooky
Tura Brezoianu: the prophesy of the three brothers
Raffila Millgrove: Spooky Men. i mean. not sufi songs.
Tura Brezoianu: "Bahari Ghibb"
Tura Brezoianu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqBQFce1I7o
Agatha Macbeth: OMG <facepalms>
Mickorod Renard: opens
Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".
Agatha Macbeth: WB Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: was there a YouTube link that I missed?
Tura Brezoianu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqBQFce1I7o
Agatha Macbeth: Yes some spooky Sufis
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you!
Bruce Mowbray: I was temporarily out of voice range.
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, good people.
Storm Nordwind waves
Agatha Macbeth: It's a bold man who interrupts his dinner for Youtube
Storm Nordwind: This video is great fun! Thank you :)
Storm Nordwind is transported to Airplane
Agatha Macbeth: Don't call me Shirley
Mickorod Renard: thanks Tura, ..I thought masons at first
Agatha Macbeth: Oh they *are* funny
Mickorod Renard: ok, gotta socialize rl,,,,see ya soon
Agatha Macbeth: Best of luck with that
Tura Brezoianu: bye Mick
Agatha Macbeth: TC
Mickorod Renard: byeeee
Raffila Millgrove: wow.
Agatha Macbeth: Hmm
Storm Nordwind: Great video. Gonna be sending it to several people.
Agatha Macbeth: Are they made of meat?
Raffila Millgrove: that's really something. I can't quite get my head around that one.. if you substitute Jesus Christ for Ghibb.. with Muslims doing it that way at a music fest. I would think we'd have protest riots in the streets. that's my view.
Raffila Millgrove: I recognize that no disrespect was meant.. but.. wow.
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps Sufis are more noted for a sense of humor?
Agatha Macbeth: Guess some are and some aren't
Raffila Millgrove: I dunno any Sufis. I would sort of like to know how they'd take that. maybe they would laugh because it's a joyful song.
Storm Nordwind: The Sufis I've known in the UK would have joined in.
Raffila Millgrove: they are the original whilrling dervish. I dunno if they'd be laughing and dancing. That's good to know Storm.
Agatha Macbeth: Never a good thing to take yourself too seriously I think
Raffila Millgrove: I hope they feel like that. Maybe the group checked in with some before they did the song that way.
Tura Brezoianu: I wonder if they were actually singing it in Arabic. Apart from the names, the sounds didn't really match the cards.
Tura Brezoianu: Or Persian
Agatha Macbeth: Pashto maybe?
Raffila Millgrove: well it was .. a cool song in any case, really neat to hear it. ty Tura.
Storm Nordwind: Friends, I have to go and run errands. See you again soon hopefully
Agatha Macbeth: Run well Stormy...be well
Storm Nordwind waves
Raffila Millgrove: me too. take care all. bye.
Tura Brezoianu: I'll be going too. Goodnight all
Agatha Macbeth: Bahari Ghibb indeed...