2014.08.28 13:00 - Karma Shadows, Empathy Spectrums

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.
 

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza
Bleu Oleander: new day for you?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :) yes indeed
Eliza Madrigal: You look great... was snapping a photo, sorry for delayed hello
Bleu Oleander: thanks :)
Bleu Oleander: reached way back in the inventory :)
Eliza Madrigal: This is a variation on sunburst appearance ? (I was thinking of solar flare) 
Bleu Oleander: trying to remember sunburst one

Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Eliza and Bleu!
Eliza Madrigal: Interesting to reach back...
Bleu Oleander: yes, brings back new ways of being

Eliza Madrigal: What is your earliest memory? (asked to both) :)
Bleu Oleander: in sl?
Eliza Madrigal: both SL/RL would be great
Bruce Mowbray: When I was about 2 1/2 years old, in Wheeling West Virginia, digging in the soil with a toy steam shovel.
Bruce Mowbray: or did you mean in Second Life?
Bleu Oleander: probably crawling in rl :)
Eliza Madrigal: both very tactile
Bruce Mowbray: nods.

Bleu Oleander: sl probably meeting Genesis at Kira
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, did Gen have her cyber hair?
Bleu Oleander: not sure if before that maybe
Eliza Madrigal: she was one of the more interesting looking humanish avatars I first met
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: one of the very first people I met was Alfred
Eliza Madrigal: at a coffee shop
Bleu Oleander: we pretty much stayed at Kira in those days
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Eliza Madrigal: :) I didn't go to Kira all that much... do remember the anniversary display, and chatting with Solo and Gen there
Bleu Oleander: yes, we had a "booth" there
Eliza Madrigal: ah, I probably played in it
Eliza Madrigal: had fun there
Bleu Oleander: for our salons

Eliza Madrigal: What is your first SL memory Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: probably going to the Quaker meeting....
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Vorder :)
Bruce Mowbray: that was the first motivation I had for getting into Second Life, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: finding some meditation places.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Vorder!
Eliza Madrigal: nice to come in with an objective
Bleu Oleander: hi Vorder
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps miss some of the aimless wandering around I did before I found places that enriched my experience
Bruce Mowbray: I really knew nothing about it.... and now that I remember better my first venue in Second Life was Science Friday -- because I heard about that on National Public Radio.
Eliza Madrigal: although, looking back that was fun too
Bleu Oleander: aimless wandering is still fun now and then
Bruce Mowbray: and from there I went looking for meditation places.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bleu Oleander: yes science friday!
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Bleu Oleander: my first sl tshirt
Bruce Mowbray: (will find my t-shirt for SF.)
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't wandered in SL in a long time
Eliza Madrigal: people have different ways of moving through virtual life... some just fly around and talk to random people
Eliza Madrigal: glue on your shoes, Vorder ? :)

Eliza Madrigal: So topic for today? empathy?
Bruce Mowbray: cool, an excellent topic.
Bleu Oleander: sure, nice article by Paul Bloom
Eliza Madrigal: very good article...several angles
Matjaz Rives: I read angels
Matjaz Rives: xD

Trixy Snowpaw: Helllo everyone ":)
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Matjaz.
Matjaz Rives: Thanks Bruce
Matjaz Rives: Hi everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Hi Matjaz and Trixy :) Welcome to playasbeing
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, ____ ?
Trixy Snowpaw: thank you
Bruce Mowbray: Trixy, sry.
Bruce Mowbray: !!
Eliza Madrigal: lovely to have visitors!
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I want to let you know that we record our sessions and keep the logs on a public wiki: playasbeing.org
Eliza Madrigal: Are you OK with being included in that?
Trixy Snowpaw: sure
Matjaz Rives: sure
Eliza Madrigal: We've been exploring this way for over 6 years...keeping a history
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Matjaz
Eliza Madrigal: Trixy? okay for you also?

Eliza Madrigal: we also pause every fifteen minutes, for 90 seconds
Matjaz Rives: intense
Eliza Madrigal: so don't be alarmed when we go quiet in a moment :)
Bruce Mowbray: (These are regs that LL requires of us -- asking permission before including chats in our on-line wiki....)

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: drop approaches....
Bruce Mowbray: here it is!
Matjaz Rives: la la
Matjaz Rives: knock knock
Bruce Mowbray: [We "drop what we 'have' to explore what we 'are' "--- every 15 minutes.]
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bruce Mowbray: not really "intense, actually. but definitely interesting.
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Zon :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, good Zon!
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'll give you both a note about the group
Bruce Mowbray: How does you be, Zon!?
Eliza Madrigal: and then we were considering the topic of EMPATHY today
Bleu Oleander: hi Wol, Zon
Wol Euler: evening all! sorry I'm late
Zon Kwan: well am i
Bruce Mowbray: WOL!
Bruce Mowbray: Didn't see you arrive.
Wol Euler smiles.

Bleu Oleander: http://www.bostonreview.net/forum/pa...gainst-empathy (for later)
Wol Euler: seconds ago, bruce
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bleu... I was just looking for that
Bleu Oleander: yw! :)
Matjaz Rives: Why does he argue against it?
Bruce Mowbray: Ever since looking into " The First Idea," I cannot view any abstract thought or embodied emotional affect the same way -- maybe never again.
Matjaz Rives: Doesn't the buddhist authority, Dalai Lama argue for it?
Bleu Oleander: makes a distinction between cognitive and emotional empathy

Matjaz Rives: perhaps I'm confusing it with compassion
Eliza Madrigal: the article makes a distinction too, but since we all can't read the article before session, maybe we can just share personal sensibilities and questions
Bruce Mowbray: I go with embodied empathy.... but there are experiences in infancy that are required for that. It is not merely a choice, or a belief, or a desire to follow the tenets of Buddhism... or any other religion
Eliza Madrigal: so if you miss it in childhood you miss it? you think?
Bruce Mowbray: good suggestion, Eliza.
Matjaz Rives: It all comes down to Love

Bruce Mowbray: if you missed the empathetic involvement of your caretakers during infancy, yes your brain would not develop a capacity for empathy.
Matjaz Rives: everybody just wants love, man
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I feel like I've known people who know empathy because they longed for it and didn't have it
Bruce Mowbray: well stated, Eliza.
Matjaz Rives: em·pa·thy noun \ˈem-pə-thē\ : the feeling that you understand and share another person's experiences and emotions : the ability to share someone else's feelings
Eliza Madrigal: one question is, is the feeling of empathy necessary to do good works?
Matjaz Rives: com·pas·sion noun \kəm-ˈpa-shən\ : a feeling of wanting to help someone who is sick, hungry, in trouble, etc.
Bleu Oleander: its possible that we're just not aware we have it as it can operate below the conscious level
Eliza Madrigal: thank you Matjaz!
Bruce Mowbray: according to the book "The First Idea" (http://www.amazon.com/The-First-Idea.../dp/0306814498 ), our brains need empathetic interaction with our caretakers in order to develop - - - something about the limbic system. This is one of the causes of autism, the authors say.
Matjaz Rives: empathy vs sympathy?
Wol Euler: bye vorder
Bruce Mowbray: bye Vorder!
Eliza Madrigal: I think of sympathy as recognition of something sad
Eliza Madrigal: that doesn't necessarily mean being in the 'other's' shoes
Bleu Oleander: I think there are degrees of empathy, more of a continuum than a have it or not kinda thing
Bruce Mowbray: The ability to abstract ideas first requires a limbic base, an embodiment ( if you will), and that limbic base -- that emotional base -- can only happen through interactions with caretakers who respond to us emotionally when we are infants.
Wol Euler: I suppose it might be possible to do good works simply as a matter of principle, on religious or political grounds, wihtout feeling any empathy, but it seems unlikely to me
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Matjaz Rives: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw - sympathy vs empathy (for later)

Bleu Oleander: you mean we can't be empathetic brains in vats?
Bruce Mowbray: TY, Matjaz!
Eliza Madrigal: someone could believe in the societal benefit of doing good works, and not necessarily *feel* the connection with others
Bruce Mowbray: I think that is implied, Bleu.
Wol Euler: when we ever find a brain in a vat, we can ask it :)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Bruce Mowbray: Interaction with caretakers is the thing....
Bruce Mowbray: emotional interaction.
Eliza Madrigal: I don't like making a connection between autism and unresponsive parents
Wol Euler: the brain-in-a-vat idea is at the root of the fear of advanced AI, it would be a brain in a vat
Bleu Oleander: being fesetious :)
Bruce Mowbray: listens for more from Eliza on that one.
Wol Euler: could we trust it to "feel" with us ?
Zon Kwan: is good good only if you make other feel good?
Eliza Madrigal: well there are varying degrees of expressiveness in people, yes
Wol Euler: blaming it on the parents doesn't explain how there can be one autistic child and two "normal" ones in a family
Matjaz Rives: empathy may not always be shown
Eliza Madrigal: autism is pretty complex and I've known some parents of autistic children who have been heartbroken for people to think it is because of the "cold mother syndrome"
Eliza Madrigal nods Wol
Eliza Madrigal: that's part of the brilliance of "Far From the Tree" I think
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Andrew Solomon.
Bruce Mowbray: A domesticated pet will generally not behave in antisocial ways unless it has been treated maliciously...... Likewise, with humans. . . . autism has far far too many origins to blame it on the " cold mother."
Bruce Mowbray: a superb example. Thank you for that one, Eliza.
Matjaz Rives: What if it's just genetic?
Matjaz Rives: In some cases?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Matjaz Rives: Blame God
Matjaz Rives: Karma
Matjaz Rives: Past Lives
Bruce Mowbray: I'm virtually certain it is, in some cases. But autism apparently can also be caused by intrauterine chemical imbalances, traumatic events during pregnancy, and who knows what?
Eliza Madrigal: in the big picture I'm not sure

--BELL--

Matjaz Rives: Is there somebody sitting in me
Matjaz Rives: ?
Matjaz Rives: lool
Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure that the people who came up with the cold mother diagnoses did so out of compassion... wanting to find a root cause
Bleu Oleander: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...s/con-20021148
Bruce Mowbray: Neuroscience is just beginning to crack the edge of this exploration concerning autism....
Eliza Madrigal: nods... and 'aspergers' is disappearing as a term
Eliza Madrigal: all very fascinating really
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: but heartbreaking depending on spectrum
Bruce Mowbray: that we would slap quick judgments on "cold mothers" or anything else -- says more about us than it does about the spectrum or the syndrome.
Bruce Mowbray: My typist worked for 13 years with three adult males - each with a diagnosis of autism - and each with a different cause for that condition.
Eliza Madrigal: and likely very different behaviors
Bruce Mowbray: definitely!
Eliza Madrigal: labels are clumsy
Bruce Mowbray: One common denominator: none of the three adult males with the diagnosis of autism seemed capable of empathy.

Wol Euler: Freud quoting Charcot: "A dog may have lice and fleas." i.e. there may be multiple causes for the multiple presentations. I feel that society spends too much emotional effort on looking for single causes for everything.
Eliza Madrigal: amen
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Bruce Mowbray: we are lazy.
Eliza Madrigal: we're growing in complexity I think... but taking a while
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Wol Euler: perhaps "hoping for", because if there were a single cause then a single (profitable) pill might cure it
Eliza Madrigal nods...good intentions
Eliza Madrigal: "if we can solve this one thing"
Bruce Mowbray: I call this the fast-food syndrome solution. Must everything be available through a drive through?
Wol Euler: heheheh, yes indeed
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: interesting that we come back to what Bruce mentioned earlier "Drop what you have to see what(who?) you are"
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully to Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: was just thinking that labels are okay as long as they can be dropped once in a while, thrown into question
Eliza Madrigal: categories are wonderful, useful, necessary
Bruce Mowbray: nods, agrees.

Eliza Madrigal: Matjaz, what is your understanding of karma? (mentioned before)
Bruce Mowbray: again, listens carefully.... this time to Matjaz.
Matjaz Rives: I think, based on past life regression, karma is a lesson tool
Matjaz Rives: kinda like a workbook
Matjaz Rives: here's the steps you take, and if you don't take it
Matjaz Rives: you gotta do it again
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmmm.
Matjaz Rives: perhaps there is choice in how to undo bad things
Matjaz Rives: experiencing it vs good karma
Eliza Madrigal: thanks, interesting
Bruce Mowbray: (I have a different notion of karma . . . but it can wait....)
Eliza Madrigal: so a kind of universe as college model
Matjaz Rives: like experiencing getting mugged, rapped and shot at
Matjaz Rives: yeah
Matjaz Rives: do tell, Bruce
Eliza Madrigal listens
Bruce Mowbray: listens for more.
Eliza Madrigal: we're listening to you now Bruce , hah
Bleu Oleander: what is your different notion Eliza?
Bruce Mowbray: well, I think of karma as a sort of inertia.... a sort of momentum...
Bruce Mowbray: once something goes into motion... it tends to stay in motion.
Bleu Oleander: (sorry)
Matjaz Rives: I agree with that too
Matjaz Rives: The more you learn
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Matjaz Rives: the more likely you are to learn more
Eliza Madrigal: (it was Bruce who said he had a different notion)
Matjaz Rives: to grow more
Bruce Mowbray: (I just expressed it . . . or at least I've tried to....)
Eliza Madrigal: my notion of karma is pretty complex - or simple, but not simple to explain
Bleu Oleander: ok on same page now :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)

Bruce Mowbray wonders where empathy and karma come together.... or if they ever do.
Eliza Madrigal: "appearances and possibilities"
Bleu Oleander: if everyone's idea of "karma" is different, how can we talk about it as one concept?
Eliza Madrigal: I think psychologists and philosophers have a lot in common with ideas of karma when we talk about the shadow
Bruce Mowbray: (I suspect that everyone's ideas of everything are different ---- with the possible exception of mathematics.)
Eliza Madrigal: or sub/unconscious
Matjaz Rives: Because in Buddhism and Hinduism it's pretty much the same thing
Matjaz Rives: Karma I mean
Bruce Mowbray: nods. is grateful for Matjaz's offerings.
Bleu Oleander: the "shadow"?
Eliza Madrigal: shadow self, or house of archetypes
Eliza Madrigal: patterns that are kind of 'in the dark'

Bruce Mowbray: another drop approaches rapidly.

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: I feel shadow-like today :)
Matjaz Rives: Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म; IPA: [ˈkarmə] ( listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed;[1] it also refers to the principle of causality where intent and actions of an individual influence the future of that individual
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: the very idea of a Freudian slip is about shadow
Matjaz Rives: from the trusty Wikipedia, for what it's worth
Eliza Madrigal: :) thanks
Bruce Mowbray: ty!
Matjaz Rives: Kinda like Christianity or Judaism too
Eliza Madrigal: hindu and buddhist diverge at the point where the idea of an enduring self comes into play
Matjaz Rives: do bad things..
Matjaz Rives: gonna go to hell
Matjaz Rives: do good things, go to heaven

Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps it is our so-called " shadow" archetypes that connect us - - - that give us deeper rooted connections - - - perhaps making empathy possible.
Matjaz Rives: well, perhaps not entirely.. I am oversimplifying maybe
Eliza Madrigal: one question is, if the 'idea' of hell wasn't ever introduced, would people still link their actions and a hellish feeling?
Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: I think that's a lot of what it is about actually... "reaching back" far enough
Wol Euler: perhaps hell grew out of empathy and bad reactions to bad action?
Matjaz Rives: sin is its own punishment in a way
Wol Euler: explaining them
Bruce Mowbray: nature gives us many examples of this.... the connections among subterranean root systems, etc..
Matjaz Rives: like virtue is its own reward
Eliza Madrigal: as a protection Wol?
Matjaz Rives: or I wish it to be lol
Wol Euler: more like cause-and-effect for primitive minds :) like rain gods
Bleu Oleander: moot if one doesn't believe in an afterlife
Bruce Mowbray: There are many many very subtle connections and links between the cause ---- and the effect.

Wol Euler: I remember Storm talking about his take on karma, which was that it acts on *us* in *this* life
Matjaz Rives: What makes anybody a good person without a belief in an afterlife? Empathy perhaps recognizing the same struggle in other human being? Maybe the struggle of being human itself
Bruce Mowbray: listens for more.
Wol Euler: the reason to avoid wrong actions is not that they may harm your future reincarnation, but that they DO harm you now
Eliza Madrigal: we seem to have defaults and triggers
Eliza Madrigal would agree with Storm
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: (who btw I tried to see this morning and miss - but he wasn't here!)
Wol Euler: awwww

Bruce Mowbray: when you watch an extremely slow-motion movie of something - like a flower opening, or a glass falling off a table and shattering, it will give a sense of the connections between these events....
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that the subtleties are infinite.
Eliza Madrigal: dependent co-arising
Bruce Mowbray: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: like the way sometimes the best things come from the seemingly worst and vice versa
Eliza Madrigal: or appear to as we make meaning
Eliza Madrigal: karma is sort of the condition of our minds
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that there is no separation . . . there are only subtle links between events, and ever more subtle and more subtle linkages.
Eliza Madrigal: too see the flower is to become the flower....
Eliza Madrigal: empathy
Matjaz Rives: I disagree
Bruce Mowbray: ( Is that not why we drop? In order to see the subtleties of the connections in the linkages?)
Eliza Madrigal: listening

Matjaz Rives: you cannot be a flower
Matjaz Rives: Do you know what it is to be a flower?
Bruce Mowbray: yes I do.
Matjaz Rives: Or a cat, or a dog?
Eliza Madrigal: do I know what it is to be human?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, those also.
Matjaz Rives: How?
Eliza Madrigal: or avatar?
Bruce Mowbray: I have been them all.
Matjaz Rives: Again, how?
Matjaz Rives: lol
Trixy Snowpaw: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: it is a poetic idea... fair enough...
Bleu Oleander: we don't know what its like to be anything other than ourselves and one could say we don't know that very well either :)
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know. Perhaps it has to do with karma and inertia and momentum.... I have no idea how I got here.
Wol Euler: true, bleu
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: labels are clumsy :)
Bleu Oleander: necessary but clumsy

Bruce Mowbray: Is empathy also clumsy, then?
Bleu Oleander: yep
Eliza Madrigal: for sure
Trixy Snowpaw: yes
Matjaz Rives: What is sure in life?
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Matjaz Rives: besides death?
Trixy Snowpaw: im seeing what this is all of before i speek
Matjaz Rives: and taxes
Eliza Madrigal: there does seem to me something less clumsy about compassionate action that arises out of spontaneous response
Bruce Mowbray: Agrees with Eliza on that. Spontaneity seems to have a way of cutting through the categories.
Bleu Oleander: even that is biased
Eliza Madrigal: not based on a kind of "in the event of this, say these words"
Bleu Oleander: we are more compassionate with those who look like us, in our groups etc.
Eliza Madrigal: I have yet to meet anyone without some baggage, so have to agree... but I'd still say less clumsy
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Eliza Madrigal: "the baggage in me sees the baggage in you" lol
Wol Euler: heheheh
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Bleu Oleander: we are not aware of all that drives our actions
Bruce Mowbray: NAMASTE!
Eliza Madrigal grins
Matjaz Rives: “Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” - Carl Jung
Eliza Madrigal: the shadow in me bows to the shadow in you... could be said too
Eliza Madrigal: Very nice quote!
Bruce Mowbray: excellent quotes, indeed.
Eliza Madrigal: I often have a delay in admitting to myself when that happens though :P
Bruce Mowbray: ( One's antlers do not grow in a single instance, or a single day....)

--BELL--

Matjaz Rives: Hoooo!

Matjaz Rives: lol
Bruce Mowbray: Come back and join us when you can!
Bruce Mowbray: (ooops. sry. thought you were leaving....)
Matjaz Rives: sok
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Eliza Madrigal: one thing I finally understood this week, is "I am" practice...which always seemed narcissistic to me when I heard others describe it...

Wol Euler listens.
Bruce Mowbray: listens carefully for more from Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: somehow it just clicked that it was about I am and label drop
Eliza Madrigal: just an exercise but usually I tinker with almost any suggestion and I resisted that one
Bruce Mowbray: " I am" is impenetrably deep.
Matjaz Rives: Ramana Maharshi?
Bruce Mowbray: Jehovah?
Eliza Madrigal: so "I am" but the one can hear what floats up that one thinks goes with that...and it sort of dissipates
Eliza Madrigal: yes maybe Ramana
Eliza Madrigal: haven't really looked at all the implications for the burning bush story :)
Bleu Oleander: how about "you are" ... just to move it a bit less self focused :)
Eliza Madrigal: well then that splits the watcher and watched

Matjaz Rives: I think he's the one that presribed the I am meditation.. oh wait. He was the one with 'who am I?'
Bleu Oleander: why is that a bad thing?
Eliza Madrigal: not... but just started to get this one! lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray also hears " echoes" in the sayings of Jesus in John's gospel: I am the way, I am the good shepherd, etc.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe Matjaz...there are variations for sure
Eliza Madrigal: like "who is worrying?"
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bleu Oleander: I am is the watcher and the watched
Bruce Mowbray: I am not this worry.
Eliza Madrigal: Maharshi said that the way to solve a problem is to ask who has it
Bruce Mowbray: I am not this big toe that I just stubbed on the counter.
Zon Kwan: waves
Eliza Madrigal: waves quiet Zon
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: bye zon
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Zon-ji!
Bleu Oleander: bye Zon
Eliza Madrigal: well dressed quiet Zon
Bruce Mowbray: -Opera-going Zon.
Eliza Madrigal: Wol, you and Zon could attend an event... all scrubbed up
Wol Euler: yeah, I just IMed him aobout the suit :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: away from keyboard for just a sec.
Eliza Madrigal has never attended an SL opera
Matjaz Rives: me neither
Wol Euler: I did once, a year or so back. It worked surprisingly well

Trixy Snowpaw: i need to go for a bit ill be back ty for your time tc all bye 4 now ":)

Eliza Madrigal: nice to meet you Trixy
Eliza Madrigal: hope you'll join us again
Wol Euler: bye trixy, take care
Bleu Oleander: bye Trixy
Bleu Oleander: gotta go too
Bleu Oleander: take care all
Eliza Madrigal: bye shadowy flowy Bleu
Wol Euler: bye bleu! take care
Bleu Oleander: byeee
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: (thanks again for great article too)

Eliza Madrigal: Matjaz and Wol, session began with asking if you can remember your first SL and RL memories?
Eliza Madrigal: just for curiosity
Matjaz Rives: I can
Wol Euler: first SL, yes, quite clearly
Matjaz Rives: We still on?
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Matjaz Rives: I spaced out
Matjaz Rives: ok
Bruce Mowbray: [back]

Wol Euler: first RL is harder to say, there are many things that I am not sure about. coud be either memories or internalized descriptions or photos
Eliza Madrigal nods.. I'm like that too Wol
Eliza Madrigal: what do you *think* it is?
Wol Euler: there is one which I *know* is a true memory, from when I was about 3 yrs 2 months old
Wol Euler: that is probably the first
Eliza Madrigal: very early
Matjaz Rives: my first memory of SL was
Wol Euler: a traumatic experience :)
Matjaz Rives: that it was awesome
Eliza Madrigal: aw
Bruce Mowbray: listens carefully to everyone.
Eliza Madrigal: was SL memory happier?
Matjaz Rives: I was procrastinating in RL to study for school
Matjaz Rives: it was August 2007
Eliza Madrigal: great reason to try SL :)
Matjaz Rives: So I had heard about Second Life from TV
Bruce Mowbray: :)!!
Matjaz Rives: So I tried it out
Matjaz Rives: amazing
Bruce Mowbray: nods.

Matjaz Rives: I loved the beginners learning area
Matjaz Rives: I think they don't have it like those days anymore
Matjaz Rives: it was just so magical
Matjaz Rives: in my first 15 minutes I met somebody from Japan

Eliza Madrigal: wow you must have entered in a diff spot than I did! (listening closely) :)
Matjaz Rives: and then me and this Frenchman were going about doing all the things
Matjaz Rives: we thought we needed to complete
Matjaz Rives: before you could join the 'real' Second Life
Matjaz Rives: haha
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Matjaz Rives: the beginners area was my bestest, happiest time
Matjaz Rives: xD
Matjaz Rives: That's it
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Matjaz Rives: I wish I could go back one more time..
Eliza Madrigal: that's sort of happy and sort of sad... if you have stayed since 2007 but that was happiest time
Matjaz Rives: Lol
Matjaz Rives: I been mostly away from SL

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: must say that was a big part of the thrill...getting to talk to people from all over the world so easily and in more than just words
Bruce Mowbray: Have you met any of the avatars from Second Life in real life. Matjaz?
Matjaz Rives: Nope
Eliza Madrigal: I don't have full memories of childhood but have remembered sensations ... like the feel of a thin sweaty snap on shirt
Wol Euler: huh
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Eliza. . . that "sensation" is what I was referring to earlier when I talked about embodiment of emotions....
Eliza Madrigal: the three of us have met, Matjaz... as have several in this group.. but we've been pretty consistent in being in SL for a long time
Bruce Mowbray: these areas of the brain apparently need to develop before we are capable of empathy or abstract thinking.
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for that Bruce, interesting
Eliza Madrigal: like the amoeba before the shape and directedness?

Bruce Mowbray: nods, yes, Eliza, Wol, and I have met . . . both in Second Life and in real life.
Matjaz Rives: oh nice
Wol Euler: it was :)
Bruce Mowbray: oh what a nice analogy - - - the amoeba!
Matjaz Rives: I have met people from dating sites..
Matjaz Rives: but that doesn't count
Wol Euler: well, has been every time I've met SL people in RL
Matjaz Rives: xD
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Wol Euler: there's never been an unpleasant surprise

Wol Euler: hardly any surprises at all actually
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that's because of you Wol.. being so you in both worlds

Bruce Mowbray: So, does empathy from one world stretch into the next one -- from SL to RL?
Bruce Mowbray: and back again?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure if it is empathy... good question
Eliza Madrigal: but the "soul's recognition of itself in another" probably describes the sensation of getting to know someone almost like you know yourself (or having the feeling that you do)
Wol Euler: absolutely
Wol Euler: my feeling was always that I knew the people intimately well, even as I encountered their *bodies* for the fisrt time
Eliza Madrigal: would agree... though I've had some wobbles
Wol Euler: which made me see the RL body as just another avatar, though less flexible :)
Matjaz Rives: Sounds kinda familiar
Eliza Madrigal: hahah nice Wol!
Bruce Mowbray: nods, agrees.

Matjaz Rives: I've had similar things happen with people I've met online
Matjaz Rives: you know them
Matjaz Rives: before you met their bodies
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: the voice is the same
Wol Euler: and I mean the manner, the style, the habits, not the noises their mouths make
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, Wol, I understand your meaning.
Eliza Madrigal: really wild if you consider it, and when researching I puzzled over this all the time
Wol Euler listens.
Eliza Madrigal: so much we know without knowing we know
Bruce Mowbray: since there are just the four of us here, may I share something precious to me... a memory?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, please Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: honored, and if you'd like to stop recording I'm happy to
Bruce Mowbray: a memory connecting both Second Life and real-life?
Bruce Mowbray: during the last day of a retreat in Nova Scotia,
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: in a moment that I was feeling especially vulnerable,
Bruce Mowbray: Wol approached me from behind as I was sitting at a table,
Bruce Mowbray: and she put both of her hands onto my chest...
Bruce Mowbray: and I felt a remarkable connection of worlds.
Bruce Mowbray: and I shall be grateful for that experience -- even those few seconds --- for probably as long as I live, in both worlds!

Bruce Mowbray: that's it.
Eliza Madrigal: beautiful
Eliza Madrigal: thank you
Wol Euler: ... and asked "are you okay?" I felt your feeling, bruce
Matjaz Rives: Extraordinary
Bruce Mowbray: THANK YOU, Wol!
Wol Euler smiles.
Matjaz Rives: What kind of retreat was it?
Eliza Madrigal: uniquely Playasbeing
Bruce Mowbray: yes, and that is the very definition and embodiment expression of "empathy"
Wol Euler: meditation and discussion, a lot like these sessions were back in the day
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler: with a silent day, which was always to me the best part of it
Matjaz Rives: oh ok :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think silent day amplifies empathy
Eliza Madrigal: because different sorts of feelers come to the forefront
Bruce Mowbray: oh, for sure, Eliza.
Wol Euler nods.

Eliza Madrigal: what have your interests in SLbeen primarily Matjaz?

Matjaz Rives: It has changed over time
Matjaz Rives: sometimes interests are not the most.. beneficial
Matjaz Rives: I shall not elaborate!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ha ha, then I will not ask further
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Matjaz Rives: I just hang out for the most part
Eliza Madrigal: I would agree with an "SL universe as college" model... or boot camp even, lol
Matjaz Rives: Sometimes I go to a jazz dance place that's huge in SL

Bruce Mowbray: The cool thing about Second Life is that we can become our other selves . . . so many of them!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh I have too... nice
Wol Euler nods.
Matjaz Rives: oh yeaah.. tell me about it -- other selves
Matjaz Rives: no kiddin'
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: Unfortunately, my typist needs to leave during this next drop.
Bruce Mowbray: Bless you all!
Eliza Madrigal: OK Bruce, glad Thursday worked out so nicely today
Eliza Madrigal: have a nice evening

--BELL--

Wol Euler: bye bruce, take care
Matjaz Rives: I think I'ma do one more
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: SL is like RL for me... can imagine living so many lives but mostly I keep to the one
Eliza Madrigal: or maybe two...
Eliza Madrigal: well, sometimes three
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Wol Euler: heheheheh

Matjaz Rives: SL is a kind of exaggerated play
Matjaz Rives: I can put on a different avatar
Wol Euler: SL is a way to practice being different people
Matjaz Rives: be someone else
Wol Euler: empathy with bits of oneself which get repressed in daily "real" life
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful descriptions, yes

Matjaz Rives: I was in Nova Scotia once
Matjaz Rives: last year
Matjaz Rives: for a few days
Matjaz Rives: my fondest memory was being in the Ramana Maharshi ashram
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, wow
Matjaz Rives: staying there till past midnight
Matjaz Rives: and then wanting to go to the small cabin
Matjaz Rives: so I open the door of the ashram to outside
Matjaz Rives: and it's pitch black
Matjaz Rives: can't see a thing
Matjaz Rives: and suddenly there's like a bell.. like a animal waring a bell
Matjaz Rives: or I thought it was
Matjaz Rives: and I close the door
Matjaz Rives: scared silly
Eliza Madrigal: haha cute
Wol Euler chuckles.
Matjaz Rives: long story short, I ended up being waken up at 4:30am
Matjaz Rives: when the meditation starts
Matjaz Rives: I was on the floor of the ashram meditation room, sleeping
Eliza Madrigal: what an experience
Matjaz Rives: hehe
Matjaz Rives: it was awesome
Eliza Madrigal: how long did you stay?
Wol Euler smiles.
Matjaz Rives: only one day
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Matjaz Rives: wish we'd stay longer
Matjaz Rives: Amazing place

Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to do a long retreat....one day...
Wol Euler: me too
Eliza Madrigal gets wistful
Matjaz Rives: http://www.arunachala.org/ashrama/nova-scotia/
Wol Euler: I really miss them
Matjaz Rives: That's the ashram and the room :)
Eliza Madrigal clicks
Wol Euler: bridgetown is very near where we were, eliza
Eliza Madrigal: didn't realize that was there
Wol Euler: funny that Eos never mentioned it

Eliza Madrigal: Nova Scotia is a particularly nice place for retreats. That was my dream - to do it once a year there, with European meet ups when feasible
Eliza Madrigal: he may not be familiar. Windhorse Farms is rooted in Shambhala community
Wol Euler: if only!
Wol Euler: oh, you mean while it lasted. yes.
Eliza Madrigal: I am smiling thinking about how Matjaz might have been in the night walk practice
Matjaz Rives: you stayed at a Buddhist place?
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Eliza Madrigal: it was pitch black, and we wore small white strips of cloth only on our backs, that disappeared if we got too far from one another
Eliza Madrigal: and walked in the woods like that
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Matjaz Rives: Lol
Wol Euler smiles and nods
Matjaz Rives: sounds good
Matjaz Rives: Buddhist?
Wol Euler: not really
Eliza Madrigal: it isn't particularly Buddhist but the owners are/were students of Trungpa Rinpoche
Wol Euler: not officially
Matjaz Rives: oh okay
Wol Euler: but there was a kind of flavour of it
Eliza Madrigal: flavor, yes
Eliza Madrigal: I have seen stars that bright only a few times in my life
Eliza Madrigal: not the night of the forest walk, lol ...until we got to open field and layed on the ground

Matjaz Rives: Nova Scotia is amazing
Eliza Madrigal: sigh
Eliza Madrigal: feel fortunate to have these memories
Eliza Madrigal: deeply appreciative
Eliza Madrigal: fuel for so much, in a way
Wol Euler nods.
Matjaz Rives: y'all Canadian and American?
Eliza Madrigal: I was wondering, when Bruce talked about embodied empathy, if a flash of it might be enough, in some childhoods.... smile from a teacher... etc...
Eliza Madrigal: I live in Miami, and was born here too
Wol Euler: when I was leaving England, and coincidentally my therapist, she said that I'd always have the memory of her and our meetings, and I could talk to her in my imagination
Eliza Madrigal: have been trying to escape
Wol Euler: heheheh
Wol Euler: grew up in canada, lived in england, now live in germany
Eliza Madrigal: Do you, Wol?
Wol Euler: sometimes, yes
Wol Euler: she was right

Matjaz Rives: Why Germany?
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Matjaz Rives: Is Germany nice?
Matjaz Rives: I'm considering going there to work
Wol Euler: and I was reminded of that by your "fuel for so much" comment
Wol Euler: I like it a lot
Wol Euler: but it takes some getting used to
Matjaz Rives: Why?
Wol Euler: you really need the language, I have to warn you about that
Wol Euler: it's not as bad as France or Spain in that regard, but you won't get far without it
Matjaz Rives: oh I can understand a bit

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: :) some of us are thrifty and can stretch such moments out..stringing them into everything... a kind of karma too
Eliza Madrigal: Where do you live Matjaz?
Matjaz Rives: I'm back in Slovenia
Matjaz Rives: I lived over a year in Canada tho
Matjaz Rives: was amazing
Eliza Madrigal: Oh nice... do you like where you are?
Matjaz Rives: Yeah it's nice
Matjaz Rives: but I need to go someplace
Matjaz Rives: I'm not meant to be here right now
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: well, I wish you luck with it
Matjaz Rives: thanks
Eliza Madrigal nods... me too
Matjaz Rives: is Dutch similar to German?
Wol Euler: yes, I think so
Wol Euler: I can understand a fair amount of printed Dutch, but spoken is too different
Wol Euler: (from german)
Matjaz Rives: hmmm
Eliza Madrigal: difficult language ... or at least to my ears
Wol Euler: one of those things that are clearer to outsiders :)
Wol Euler: dutch and german people say the languages are quite different
Wol Euler: outsiders see similarities
Eliza Madrigal: :) I must away to the kitchen
Matjaz Rives: I know English and German.. well I can understand some
Eliza Madrigal: cinderella cinderella...
Matjaz Rives: and dutch has elements of both
Wol Euler: and I towards bed :)

Wol Euler: matjaz, lovely to meet you
Eliza Madrigal: It was a real pleasure to talk with you Matjaz
Eliza Madrigal: hope you'll visit the website and look at the schedule on the front
Wol Euler: yes, all the North Sea languages are related, they have a common root
Eliza Madrigal: we don't always have hosts or sessions so it is good to check times there
Eliza Madrigal: feel free to stay of course
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
Eliza Madrigal: hugs and thank for spending this time
Wol Euler: <3
Eliza Madrigal: *s
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Matjaz Rives: Thanks
Matjaz Rives: It was a pleasure
Wol Euler: she's such a lovely person, and just like that in RL too :)
Wol Euler smiles.

(heart touched ~ Thank you (((Wol)))

Matjaz Rives: Is Frankfurt a good city?
Wol Euler: I've never lived there, but it seems okay
Matjaz Rives: hehe
Matjaz Rives: fair enough
Wol Euler: to be honest, I only know Stuttgart well, and Hamburg and Munich a bit
Wol Euler: I like Hamburg a lot
Wol Euler: very nice city
Matjaz Rives: mhm
Wol Euler: what is your trade, matjaz? what do you do in RL?
Matjaz Rives: I worked security in Canada
Matjaz Rives: housekeeping, front desk in a hotel in USA
Matjaz Rives: dishwashing in England
Matjaz Rives: I do whatever
Matjaz Rives: lol
Wol Euler: fair enough :)
Wol Euler: there's always need of "whatever"
Wol Euler: those jobs cannot be outsourced
Wol Euler: not to India anyway
Matjaz Rives: That's true
Matjaz Rives: lol
Wol Euler: anyway, I must get on to bed
Wol Euler: take care, and I hope you are able to resolve your situation

Wol Euler: perhaps we'll meet again here
Matjaz Rives: take care