2014.05.04 07:00 - Enlightenment Hats

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
BonitoBonsai Resident: 's current display-name is "BonitoBonsai".
Bleu Oleander: hi Bonito
Bleu Oleander: have you been here before?
BonitoBonsai Resident: hi blue
BonitoBonsai Resident: I have been here long time ago
BonitoBonsai Resident: maybe 5 months or so
Bleu Oleander: is it OK to record your comments for our wiki?
BonitoBonsai Resident: yes ok
Bleu Oleander: great thank you!
Bleu Oleander: what brings you here this morning?
BonitoBonsai Resident: just want to experience the great atmosphere here
Bleu Oleander: nice!
BonitoBonsai Resident: if it is still there
Bleu Oleander: hi Adams :)
Bleu Oleander: yes indeed ... still here :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Bleu and BonitoBonsai
BonitoBonsai Resident: hi Adams
Bleu Oleander: what are your interests in SL?
BonitoBonsai Resident: i talked with some of you about TAO and all kinds of things
BonitoBonsai Resident: I think of Pera is he still here
BonitoBonsai Resident: and Stormwind
Bleu Oleander: he hasn't been here in a while, although Storm still comes in
BonitoBonsai Resident: ok
Bleu Oleander: Storm hosts the thursday 7am sessions
BonitoBonsai Resident: and Euler
Bleu Oleander: yes, Wol Euler comes in often
Bleu Oleander: hosts some of the 1am sessions
BonitoBonsai Resident: i should remember her
BonitoBonsai Resident: and the guy with the fish blub
Bleu Oleander: so many of us still around :)
Bleu Oleander: yes, Bruce and Blub
BonitoBonsai Resident: i like that lasting group
BonitoBonsai Resident: yeah bruce
Bleu Oleander: yes, we celebrated our 6th year this year
BonitoBonsai Resident: oh
BonitoBonsai Resident: great
BonitoBonsai Resident: congratulations
Bleu Oleander: one of the more long lasting groups in sl I think
BonitoBonsai Resident: I talked with Qt about Milan expo 2105
BonitoBonsai Resident: 2015
Adams Rubble: :)
Bleu Oleander: where are u from?
BonitoBonsai Resident: netherlands europe
BonitoBonsai Resident: and u ?
Bleu Oleander: so a long way from me .... USA
BonitoBonsai Resident: yeah biut so near here in SL
Bleu Oleander: indeed!
Bleu Oleander: nice thing about sl actually
BonitoBonsai Resident: its 4 pm here afternoon
BonitoBonsai Resident: tea time
Bleu Oleander: its 7am here
Adams Rubble: 10 am here
Bleu Oleander: breakfast time for me
BonitoBonsai Resident: i still like SL
Adams Rubble: morning nap time for me :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: you're relatively new as an avatar
BonitoBonsai Resident: i like the sunrise and the birdsounds here
Bleu Oleander: do you have older avatars?
BonitoBonsai Resident: yeah
BonitoBonsai Resident: i had some old avatars
BonitoBonsai Resident: like Barcalona
Bleu Oleander: any we would know?
BonitoBonsai Resident: and Rhapsody
Bleu Oleander: ah ok
BonitoBonsai Resident: it should be in your logs
BonitoBonsai Resident: of several years ago
Bleu Oleander: yes, I remember
BonitoBonsai Resident: its remarkable such a long stayimng group
BonitoBonsai Resident: you share things in RL ?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: we've done RL retreats
BonitoBonsai Resident: and u are all guardians
BonitoBonsai Resident: ?
Bleu Oleander: most are, but new visitors come all the time
BonitoBonsai Resident: nice
Adams Rubble is a lost guardian
BonitoBonsai Resident: ah
Bleu Oleander: Adams and I have been guardians for a while
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: "lost," Adams?
BonitoBonsai Resident: taking a nap ?
Adams Rubble: I have been on sabbatical for a while
BonitoBonsai Resident: ah
Bleu Oleander: what projects are you working on?
Adams Rubble: me?
Bleu Oleander: yes
BonitoBonsai Resident: me ?
Adams Rubble: I have been busy in RL
Bleu Oleander: so not much in sl?
Bleu Oleander: I've gotten involved in some online courses
Adams Rubble: not right now but we have a project under consideration but too soon to talk about it
Bleu Oleander: ok look forward to hearing about it
Bleu Oleander: I'm taking a course on Andy Warhol
Bleu Oleander: very fun!
Adams Rubble: :)
Bleu Oleander: we've had to create Warholian artwork
Bleu Oleander: fun to see how everyone interprets that
Bleu Oleander: kinda like our Art of Being projects
BonitoBonsai Resident: interesting
Bleu Oleander: I've just finished a class on "Buddhism and Psychology" given by a Princeton Prof.
Adams Rubble: :)
Bleu Oleander: really interesting to interact with so many people from around the world!
Adams Rubble: Coursera sounds like a wonderful project. I hope someone does nto decide to make money on it and ruin it
Bleu Oleander: yes
Adams Rubble: I have not had time to try it
Bleu Oleander: edX is also a good project
Bleu Oleander: Harvard and MIT's version
Adams Rubble does not know about edX
Bleu Oleander: one sec and I'll give a link
Bleu Oleander: https://www.edx.org/
Adams Rubble: Thank you
Adams Rubble: I will look it over
Bleu Oleander: i'm taking the one on "justice"
Adams Rubble: you are very busy :)
Bleu Oleander: and the one on "Alexander the Great"
Adams Rubble: wow
Bleu Oleander: yes, time consuming but sooo interesting
BonitoBonsai Resident: thnx
Bleu Oleander: yw
BonitoBonsai Resident: great
BonitoBonsai Resident: thats the future of education
Adams Rubble: maybe
BonitoBonsai Resident: or existing pratice
Bleu Oleander: Yale offers some free online classes too but they're not interactive
BonitoBonsai Resident: i mean now
BonitoBonsai Resident: good practice now
Adams Rubble: yes
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Bleu Oleander: yes, definitely great for those of us who can take the time
Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza :)
Adams Rubble: Good morning Eliza :)
Bleu Oleander: talking about online classes
Eliza Madrigal: Morning :) Nice to see you all
Bleu Oleander: nice to see you!
BonitoBonsai Resident: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: will listen - not currently engaged in even the one I'm signed up for :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Adams Rubble: you are ahead of me :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: engagement is a prerequisite :)
Eliza Madrigal: the buddhism/psychology class was worthwhile, though I was on the "watching videos" track mostly ^.^
Bleu Oleander: I find the discussion threads the most interesting part of the classes
Bleu Oleander: very much like PaB
BonitoBonsai Resident: not experiencing the here and now ?
--BELL--
BonitoBonsai Resident: ladies, excuse me,
BonitoBonsai Resident: i have to leave
BonitoBonsai Resident: now
Bleu Oleander: take care Bonito
BonitoBonsai Resident: i got some visitors
BonitoBonsai Resident: now
Adams Rubble: goodnight Bonito
BonitoBonsai Resident: bye
Bleu Oleander: bfn
Eliza Madrigal: have enjoyed the discussion threads here, but find the others a little overwhelming.. so many
BonitoBonsai Resident: thnx for nice conversation
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bonito, have a good day
Adams Rubble: niuce to meet you
Eliza Madrigal: night*
Bleu Oleander: yes so many ... so you have to choose just a few
Bleu Oleander: pick your conversations
Eliza Madrigal: I did find a few cartoons that I thought you'd like, regarding "enlightenment"

Bleu Oleander: yes?
Eliza Madrigal: I'll upload them... brb and don't mind me
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: kk
Bleu Oleander: can you give us any tantalizing hints about any projects in the works Adams?
Adams Rubble: I am wearing them :)
Bleu Oleander: zooms in ...
Adams Rubble: but we are not sure it is going to work out yet so reluctant to talk about it
Eliza Madrigal zooms too and listens
Bleu Oleander: ok no more questions then :)
Bleu Oleander notices Eliza creating something :)
Adams Rubble looks at the box nervously
Bleu Oleander: haha very good!
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: so the first is the "special" view of enlightenment
Eliza Madrigal: the second isn't exactly another level in understanding but a wider ranging way to see enlightenment personal experience
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Adams
Bleu Oleander: chuckles at Adams
Adams Rubble: Pema always says we are already enlightened :)
Bleu Oleander: I never think of myself as enlightened in the big way
Adams Rubble: you just have to put on a hat
Bleu Oleander: only small steps of enlightenment
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: we could all use "enlightenment hats" lol

Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: unfortunately, unlike Buddhism it is not transferable :(
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think of it as something that can be achieved... for the very reason that you can't achieve something you 'are'... but you can excavate the experience?
Eliza Madrigal: open core curriculum :)
Bleu Oleander: nice :)
Bleu Oleander: so what does enlightenment mean to you
Bleu Oleander: ?
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal listens to Adams :)) lol
Adams Rubble giggles
Bleu Oleander: kk then you
Eliza Madrigal: ok
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: is it more like "you know it when you see it?"
Adams Rubble: I don't usually think of enlightenment but one definition I heard recently is that it when dualism disappears and one realizes once and for all that there is no I
Eliza Madrigal: or the dualism ceases to take precedence
Bleu Oleander: or that "I" is a process?
Eliza Madrigal: there is "great and perfect enlightenment" which is something I can't fathom, but as far as enlightenment as something accessible 'now', I think Adams definition is a good one. Though, I see it as seeing through, rather than disappearing.
Bleu Oleander: in the 18th C it meant emphasizing reason and individualism rather than tradition, does it still have that meaning?
Eliza Madrigal: I think so - direct experience
Eliza Madrigal: is emphasized
Adams Rubble does not take credit for that definition; still thinking about it :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Adams Rubble: PaB is one of the closest places I have ever experienced it :)
Bleu Oleander: was really asking more how "you" think of it
Adams Rubble: we can lose out "I: sometimes here
Adams Rubble: our
Bleu Oleander: "great and perfect enlightenment" sounds like part of a specific tradition?
Eliza Madrigal: our belief in an I
Adams Rubble is not a very good Buddhist
Eliza Madrigal: yes... it isn't technical really but one of those hard to describe things . Pema's "you can't get there from here" understandings... absolute/relative. I think there is a parallel to the way some hear words like "omniscient"
Bleu Oleander: modern science is describing an "I" or "self" as a process created by the brain through interactions with others and our environment ... not a "thing" to exist or not exist
Eliza Madrigal: I think that agrees with buddhism
Bleu Oleander: always running "behind the scenes" so never not existing
Eliza Madrigal: appearance of a self
Bleu Oleander: but very real as a process
Bleu Oleander: transition from soul-like to more of a process of the brain
Eliza Madrigal: how we experience the self experientially may depend on how much light we allow... how much space between our preconceptions?
Bleu Oleander: I think we all experience a self ... even those that say they don't :)
Eliza Madrigal nods... yet, there are also no self experiences
Bleu Oleander: the fact that you can say you have that experience says that you are a self having that no self experience though
Eliza Madrigal: some think enlightenment is a no self experience where the self experience doesn't come back, but I don't think so
Bleu Oleander: brain damage and death are the only ways to get rid of the self I think :)
Eliza Madrigal: well, actually there are few who have 'stayed' there and usually others then describe them as enlightened rather than they themselves... and there is also something rather debilitating that can happen, yes
Bleu Oleander: its not a state to seek IMHO
Adams Rubble: There is the looking outwards toward helping others once once accepts that dualism is problemmatic
Adams Rubble: the Bidhisattva experince
Adams Rubble: Bodhisattva
Bleu Oleander: focusing on others is a good way of lessening the emphasis on self
Adams Rubble: we are interdependent
Bleu Oleander: its more about "wearing" the self lightly
Eliza Madrigal: have you ever heard of the ox-herding story? In it, the seeker sets out to know directly... turns inward, and there does come a flip. Later however, the sage returns to the marketplace. I wrote this week in the 99 days pages that I realized there is retreat/return over and over again, though many try to pin it down to either or
Bleu Oleander: yes
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: life is an experience of looking out and looking in ... and knowing when to do both
Adams Rubble: I must leave prematurely. Thank you for this interesting discussion
Bleu Oleander: ok me too
Bleu Oleander: thanks for coming!
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Adams, always pleasant and interesting when you are here
Adams Rubble: Good to stop in at PaB
Bleu Oleander: nice to see you both
Adams Rubble: Have a nice day both of you
Bleu Oleander: bfn
Eliza Madrigal: you too
Bleu Oleander: have a great week
Eliza Madrigal: will clean up my mess
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal: thank you Bleu, you too :))