2015.01.07 01:00 - Assumptions, Prejudice, Discrimination

The Guardian for this meeting was Darren. The comments are by No Self.
 

Avaline DeCuir: Hello
Korel Laloix: Osiyo
Korel Laloix: How are you today Ava?
Avaline DeCuir: I am well thank you .. and you?
Korel Laloix: Can't sleep.. frowns. But it could be worse.

--BELL--

Avaline DeCuir: indeed it could be worse
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Korel Laloix: Love your look Ava.. always nice to see another dark AV.
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Avaline DeCuir: yes it is interesting to see how people react to a dark skin
Korel Laloix: Very difficult to find a SL skin that matches my RL.. so I sort of stopped looking.
Avaline DeCuir: Darren will be here in a couple of minutes .. I just called him to remind him
Korel Laloix: I would like to see the actual statistics for Sl use by ethnicity.
Korel Laloix: Oh OK.
Avaline DeCuir: yes I would be interested
Avaline DeCuir: this used to be a white avatar .. and everywhere she went men hit on her ... she couldn't go anywhere without being hassled
Avaline DeCuir: then I changed to dark .. and it is as if she is invisible
Korel Laloix: Interesting.... when I started making my AV like m RL I stopped getting hit on in here quite a lot... lol... still not sure how I feel about that.
Avaline DeCuir: well aside from liking the look of the dark av ... and my partner preferring it .. I choose to remain like this to avoid being hit on
Avaline DeCuir: it is sad both ways really .. that women feel they need to hide so they aren't hit on ... and that dark skinned people are virtually ignored
Avaline DeCuir: I guess it reflects RL attitudes though
Avaline DeCuir: good morning my love
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Darren Islar: hi there
Korel Laloix: Osiyo Darren

Avaline DeCuir: we are talking about prejudice
Avaline DeCuir: well in a round about way
Darren Islar: I noticed

Korel Laloix: I just enjoy being in here and not looking like Barbi.
Avaline DeCuir grins
Darren Islar: and I take it yu have been here before Korel?
Avaline DeCuir: it is liberating to be able to look like yourself in a virtual world .. that is one thing I like about second life .. the ability to choose the way you represent yourself
Korel Laloix: Yes.. been doing the PaB thing for years now... just not this time usually.
Korel Laloix: And not regularly recently.
Darren Islar: ok, I have been away for a while, so I don't know who is who yet :)
Darren Islar: sounds like a good topic
Darren Islar: predujice
Darren Islar: prejudice :)
Avaline DeCuir: yes I agree ... Iam happy to continue talking about it if you both agree
Korel Laloix: VIrtual world predudice I thinik is a strange idea really.
Korel Laloix: Sure.
Korel Laloix: The prejusdice I get her is very different from what I get RL though.
Avaline DeCuir: yes considering we can choose how to represent ourselves .. you would think that prejudice would be absent
Korel Laloix: Just easier to ignore here.
Avaline DeCuir: yet experience tells me otherwise
Avaline DeCuir: I suppose there is less open abuse over skin colour
Avaline DeCuir: it is more being ignored than anything
Korel Laloix: But there are abuses sterotypes here as well.
Korel Laloix: Asian female AVs seem to have certian reputations.
Avaline DeCuir: true there are ... I guess the difference is that here we can mute them or tp out of situations that are problematic ... things we can't do in real life
Korel Laloix: I am 4'9 RL so the same here so I gest accuse of being a child AV with all the negative ideas attached
Avaline DeCuir: yes you would be ... which is why my AV is taller than I am RL
Avaline DeCuir: I found many sims that I was not allowed on if I was under 5'6
Korel Laloix: And I have no problems growing my AV.. just ask me before you ban me... lol
Avaline DeCuir: hahaha yes
Darren Islar: otherwise you're seen as a child?
Avaline DeCuir: that is one of the freedoms of second life though .. you can be who you want to be ... you can be male or female .. or animal .. or fantastic creature
Korel Laloix: Evidently.
Korel Laloix: I have the issue of being confused as a little girl in RL as well though.. so not something I am really annoyed at.
Korel Laloix: Not so bad as it used to be now that I am approaching 30.
Korel Laloix: But trying to get a drink when I was 21 was nearly impossible... lol

--BELL--

Avaline DeCuir: lol yes I would imagine it would be
Korel Laloix: I understand people's good intentions, but there has to be a balance... SO I guess you cant call it a prejudice.
Avaline DeCuir: that is an important point ... what should we call prejudice and what should we allow as friendliness or well meaning?
Korel Laloix: One thing I do like about SL is that people don't make the assumption I am black in here... I get that a lot RL.
Darren Islar: you mean not treating you like that ....whatever that means btw
Korel Laloix: At least when I am out of Oklahoma.
Avaline DeCuir: I can't say I have ever had that problem ... I am very pale RL so no one could mistake me for anything other than anglo ... so it is interesting for me to wear a black skin here
Korel Laloix: Well not getting hit on by black guys with hip hop language as one example.
Avaline DeCuir: but it isn't the same .. because as I said before I have the freedom to mute and TP
Korel Laloix: I am darker than most blacks around here at least, but my hair and features are very different.
Korel Laloix: Oh my RL ignore button is well used... smiles
Avaline DeCuir laughs
Darren Islar: wants a button like that
Avaline DeCuir: yeh it would be handy sometimes
Korel Laloix: Just takes some practice... smiles
Darren Islar: I actually have a button like that
Korel Laloix: Mine usually triggers with the word "whatever"... lol

Avaline DeCuir: do you think we are all prejudice to some extent? Inwardly secretly even if not outwardly?
Avaline DeCuir: hehehehe
Darren Islar: erases the word
Darren Islar: we are I should say to anything that is not familiar to me
Avaline DeCuir: maybe we avoid going to a particular shop because of the nationality of the owner ... or avoid getting too near the gay guy ... that sort of thing ... even if we don't verbalise it or make any outward display?
Korel Laloix: Anyone that says they are not prejudiced is either shut off from the world, dead or lying (maybe to themselves).
Avaline DeCuir: or even something more simple .. like pausing before walking down a particular street because a gang of youth are standing in a clump on the pavement?
Korel Laloix: Is that prejudice or just being smart though?
Korel Laloix: Interesting question.
Darren Islar: ((brb))
Avaline DeCuir: well I think both ... history tells us that it is a risk to walk down there .. but we are making an assumption about those people without even knowing them .. and that is prejudice
Korel Laloix: But no loose to them in that case.. and a reduced risk to me.
Korel Laloix: SO on average, it comes out well I think.
Avaline DeCuir: I agree ... it is an interesting question to pose to people who think they aren't prejudice though
Korel Laloix: I help with a Womens' Self Defense class and abit of what the program says is to be prejudiced.
Avaline DeCuir: and that is sensible .. I am prejudice in that respect as well ... I would be stupid not to be
Korel Laloix: Maybe we are prejudiced against the word or concept of prejudice... smiles

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: It is usefull for sure.. but can be damaging.
Avaline DeCuir: but there are other prejudices too .. say I was to be wearing a skirt ... with long hair .. and were to hug a female friend in the street ... most people would assume we are friends and she had maybe told me some good news ... if I were wearing jeans .. and had short or shaved hair and did the same thing .. especially if she was also dressed the same way ... people would assume we are lesbians ... and perhaps frown about it ... drag their child away from the area ... etc
Korel Laloix: I never got that response even in my more butch phase.. but I know what you mean. I did get some other strange reactions though for sure.
Avaline DeCuir: making assumptions based on appearance can be unfair .. even dangerous
Avaline DeCuir: welcome back my love
Korel Laloix: But it can also be safe... like in the self defense thing.
Korel Laloix: Where is the balance I guess is a good question.
Darren Islar: thank you, wrong button this time
Avaline DeCuir: indeed .. that is the central question I suppose
Avaline DeCuir: when is prejudice important ... safe ... or dangerous .. or unfair?
Korel Laloix: Difficult questions.
Avaline DeCuir: I think that for the most part prejudice can be unfair
Korel Laloix: I think that is right.
Korel Laloix: And probably is vs can be.
Darren Islar: prejudice in itself is not that bad I think, we do it anyways ... not being open to change might be the problem
Avaline DeCuir: that is an important point Darren
Korel Laloix: I like change... but if given the choice, I drift toward certain types of people.
Korel Laloix: Or maybe away from other types?
Korel Laloix: Or both?
Avaline DeCuir: the main problem with prejudice is that we make a value judgement about someone based on their appearance ... but we can mitigate that by being willing to allow that person to show us who they really are
Korel Laloix: But that takes time and involves risk.
Darren Islar: well, I mean not open to situations, getting a thought a prejudiced thought when meeting someone, but not open to change that thought
Darren Islar: yes Ava
Avaline DeCuir: the problem with value judgement can be that if we are closed ... everything that person does after the initial judgement is made is coloured according to our preconcieved ideas about the group we have allocated them to .. right or wrong
Korel Laloix: But in the self defense situation.. I weigh 80lbs... so my idea of risk is different than most.
Korel Laloix: Yes, first impressions can be wrong and lasting.
Korel Laloix: I get that a lot on the job.. frowns..
Korel Laloix: Not because of my skin color, but because I look like ai m 14... lol
Avaline DeCuir: that is true ... and in the case of a gang in the street .. it is not like you are going to become best buddies with them anyway ... so sensible precaution is not wrong ... but I think that each time we allow prejudice space in our mind .. we allow a poison to grow
Darren Islar: we like our world to be neat and controlled, so following our own prejudice is an easy way
Korel Laloix: Well, in exchange for not be raped or dead or both, i will take a little of that poison.
Darren Islar: not every situation in which prejudice occurs is dangerous
Korel Laloix: OH I know.. but caution is maybe a prejudice?
Darren Islar: depends ... caution can be when we are hung up on it
Korel Laloix: True
Korel Laloix: I try to be very up front about my prejudices... helps me learn new things.
Korel Laloix: But hard to be honest with yourself sometimes about things like that.
Darren Islar: true
Avaline DeCuir: so what about someone who appears to be staggering down the street as if intoxicated ... do we ignore them .. cross the street because they are drunk and likely beligerent?
Korel Laloix: If I was alone I might.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: But if in a group we might stop and see if they are OK... have done that before.
Avaline DeCuir: What if that person is a diabetic and having a low sugar episode? It looks the same as being drunk to an outsider .. but it might mean their life if we ignore it
Korel Laloix: The most damaging racism that I have received was not aggressive though.. it was being automatically given Cs in school based on my ethnicity even when I did zero class work.
Avaline DeCuir: yes that is dangerous as well
Korel Laloix: So that is an entirely different view of it.
Avaline DeCuir: indeed it is
Avaline DeCuir: I think there is a difference between prejudice and racism though
Korel Laloix: Agreed, but they do over lap a bit.
Avaline DeCuir: we can be prejudiced against a particular group based on our life experiences
Darren Islar: walk past and sniff a bit :)
Avaline DeCuir grins at Darren
Avaline DeCuir: You better do more than sniff if I start acting drunk
Darren Islar: with you I know
Korel Laloix: IN the case I just said, the prejudice was the the native girls could not do the school work. So the racism was ignoring us and giving us Cs if we just did not get in the way.
Korel Laloix: Related but different for sure.
Darren Islar: that is really a weird assumption
Avaline DeCuir: that is unfair to those girls .. how are they to prepare themselves for the adult world in that situation?
Korel Laloix: Exactly... it took me quite a while to recover from that.
Avaline DeCuir: I think prejudice keeps us from knowing the real person in many cases ... take for example the people you work with ... how many of them do you really know ... and how many do you make assumptions about based on how they look?
Korel Laloix: As of right now, out of my little group I am the only one with a college education.
Avaline DeCuir: and I don't mean negative assumptions ... just assumptions
Korel Laloix: I work in a lab and so there are soem strange prejudices that come in...
Avaline DeCuir chuckles .. there would be
Korel Laloix: Some are amuzing.
Darren Islar: I think we always do, then make another assumption when they start to move and another one and so on, until you start to know the person better
Darren Islar: though you can wonder if in essence our life is not one big assumption
Avaline DeCuir: I think it is
Korel Laloix: But I had to get some more professional looking scrubs to look the part when I got promoted at work.. The provided one would no long due... smiles
Darren Islar: which is different than prejudice btw, that is an assumption with a thought connected to it, mostly negatie
Darren Islar: negative
Korel Laloix: Assumptions are easy and don't take a lot of work .. smiles
Darren Islar: right :)
Avaline DeCuir: I am not saying assumptions are prejudices .. but the habit of making assumptions leads to prejudices
Korel Laloix: But I do think just as prejudice is built into us, the ability to wear it down and repalce it with facts is also built in.
Korel Laloix: Just the second part takes longer.
Darren Islar: true there is a fine line
Darren Islar: not with everyone, some like to believe in their prejudices
Korel Laloix: Well, some of my prejudices turned out to be true.. so I believe those... smiles
Avaline DeCuir: unfortunately many people invest a lot of energy in their prejudices .. and allow them to grow by feeding them constantly
Korel Laloix: When you invest in them, that is when they get dangrous maybe.
Avaline DeCuir: so should we be allowed to harbour some prejudices? Are they not a natural part of being human?
Darren Islar: yeah but that is trial and error, as there are some that like to believe in prejudices there are also some that like to live it
Darren Islar: I think vigilance is something that is build in, we discriminate between what we know and don't know.

--BELL--

Darren Islar: I think so far it's normal
Korel Laloix: I think we should look at all of our judgments continually.... not just the pre-judgments.
Darren Islar: nods
Darren Islar: yes
Avaline DeCuir: on one hand prejudices that are permitted grow lead to social problems .. on the other hand trying to suppress prejudices leads to resentment and anger ... leading to social problems
Avaline DeCuir: so we can't win either way
Darren Islar: yeah, I think it is in the word suppress
Darren Islar: but sadly that's the case
Avaline DeCuir: I think a lot of it has to do with our sense of self and our sense of ownership
Avaline DeCuir: people who are different to us might threaten our sense of self ... or they may try to take away what we have
Avaline DeCuir: which leads to attachment .. but that is a different matter all together
Darren Islar: yes, or think they will, there is a lot of fear there normally
Korel Laloix: I think it is more complex than that, but that is probably a good way to look at it.
Darren Islar: it's a complex matter
Darren Islar: but we need to go now I'm afraid, I need to leave soon
Korel Laloix: Oh Ok..
Avaline DeCuir: yes it is time already
Korel Laloix: Thanks for teh chat.
Avaline DeCuir: this has been a stimulating chat
Korel Laloix: I am going to try and get some sleep I think.
Darren Islar: you too, thanks for stepping by
Avaline DeCuir: sleep well
Korel Laloix: I hope so.
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Korel Laloix: do na da go hv i
Darren Islar: bye Korel, was nice to meet you
Avaline DeCuir: yes lovely to meet you Korel
Korel Laloix: Always nice to meet new PaBers.
Korel Laloix: Atr least ones I have not met before
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Darren Islar: :)