2015.01.12 13:00 - How to criticize constructively.

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

ElanVitalo Resident: Heya, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi!
Aphrodite Macbain: I came early so you wouldn't have to wait for me...
ElanVitalo Resident: Thank you!
ElanVitalo Resident: So kind you are to robots!
Aphrodite Macbain: I know how important punctuality is to robots
Aphrodite Macbain: and there is Bruce! What a surprise.
Bruce Mowbray: Howdy do, Aph and Elan.
Aphrodite Macbain: Welcome Bruce.
Aphrodite Macbain: You are both early- as is Silas
Aphrodite Macbain: goodness
Aphrodite Macbain: 3 early birds
Aphrodite Macbain: welcome
SilasAndrews Resident: Hello, Aph, Bruce, and Elan!
Aphrodite Macbain: You seem to have lost your right arm Bruce! Did you have an accident?
Aphrodite Macbain: oh there it is
Bruce Mowbray: It's these viewers.
Bruce Mowbray: It takes a while to rez stuff, apparently.
Bruce Mowbray: I've been trying to change my position on the cushion for about four minutes, now.
Aphrodite Macbain: I have SL viewer
Aphrodite Macbain: not sure if it matters
Bruce Mowbray: Me too.
Bruce Mowbray: In fact, I have THREE of them going at once.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: How was your weekend?
Bruce Mowbray: The viewers are no better at spelling than my typist is.
ElanVitalo Resident: I had an excellent weekend, thank you.
SilasAndrews Resident: Me too.
Bruce Mowbray: Me too.
Bruce Mowbray: AHHH!
Bruce Mowbray: I FINALLY got the cushion to change.
Aphrodite Macbain: you mean your position?
Bruce Mowbray: It had me seated like a girl.
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: you mean if I sit in a yoga position I'm sitting like a boy?
ElanVitalo Resident: My, what a beautiful sweater you're wearing, Aph.
Bruce Mowbray: Is that a yoga position?
Aphrodite Macbain: sort of
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Elan about Aph's sweater.
Aphrodite Macbain: thank you Elan. I knitted it myself
Raffila Millgrove: Hello everyone.
Aphrodite Macbain: Raffila! Hello
Bruce Mowbray: Raffi!
Aphrodite Macbain: So glad you could make it
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome!
ElanVitalo Resident: Hello, Raffila.
Raffila Millgrove: where's Kori? I thought she'd be with us?
SilasAndrews Resident: Greetings, Raffila.
Bruce Mowbray: She might be working.
Aphrodite Macbain: I hope Korel can make it today.
ElanVitalo Resident: Me too.
SilasAndrews Resident: Me too.
Bruce Mowbray: Me too.
Aphrodite Macbain: We were going to talk about an issue she raised for discussion today

Constructive criticism in book reviewing

Raffila Millgrove: I wondered what the book was .. that she was asked to review .. that sparked the discussion topic.
SilasAndrews Resident: Yes, I remember her saying that.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it was for "women of colour"
ElanVitalo Resident: She was asked to review a book, yes.
Raffila Millgrove: oh?
Bruce Mowbray: about women of color, she said.
Raffila Millgrove: mm.
Aphrodite Macbain: which she assumed were African Americans
Bruce Mowbray: but she said she didn't like the book much.
ElanVitalo Resident: nope.
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not too clear on it.
SilasAndrews Resident: nope.
Aphrodite Macbain: But the question still stands
Aphrodite Macbain: and can be discussed
Raffila Millgrove: too bad we don't know where the book went on the constructive criticism .. issue.
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, it can.
Bruce Mowbray waits, listens.
Raffila Millgrove nods in agreement. and waits too
Aphrodite Macbain: This is the question in Kori's words:

As I mentioned last time, I have been asked to write a review of a book. I am still finishing up the read, but my opinion so far is very, very negative. Not just bad but mildly offensive (or maybe just ignorant), poorly done and damaging to the target disadvantaged audience. So the question is not how to give feedback, but how do you identify the line between when you need to provide constructive criticism and when you need to (not sure the word) rebuke or scold them for being damaging and offensive.

How do proactively work on making a coming tragedy as light as possible on those that are going to be effected without coming across as insensitive or as manipulative?

ElanVitalo Resident also waits.
SilasAndrews Resident: and reads.
Bruce Mowbray: Druth!
ElanVitalo Resident: Heya, druth.
druth Vlodovic: hey'all
SilasAndrews Resident: Welcome, druth.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druth :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: so it's deciding at which point one must move from being polite to rebuking
Raffila Millgrove: gosh that last sentence.. that's just.. i dunno. kind Weird..

Aphrodite Macbain: her last sentence or mine?
druth Vlodovic: what are we reading?
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Qt!
ElanVitalo Resident: Hi, Qt!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Qt
Qt Core: Hi all!
SilasAndrews Resident: Hello, Qt.
Raffila Millgrove: your cut and paste, maybe we need to kind of skip that part.
Raffila Millgrove: the last bit.
druth Vlodovic: do you have a nc?
druth Vlodovic: hate to spam the chatlog
Aphrodite Macbain: This bit:? "How do proactively work on making a coming tragedy as light as possible on those that are going to be effected without coming across as insensitive or as manipulative?"
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes it is confusing
druth Vlodovic: a lot has to do with how a person decides to take it
Bruce Mowbray nods.
ElanVitalo Resident agrees with druth.
Raffila Millgrove: I pasted the comment by Kori to both Druth and Qt in IM
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Raffi
Aphrodite Macbain: So let's get to the crux of the matter. What pushes or should push us over the line from being critical to being abusive or hard?
druth Vlodovic: a good tactic is to listen to what others say and then keep quiet about it
druth Vlodovic: most times people ask for opinions when they don't like the conclusion they have come to
Aphrodite Macbain: That's a tactic. But it doesn't answer Kori's question
Aphrodite Macbain: She is writing a book review and wants to be quite hard in her criticism but isn't sure whether she should be hard
SilasAndrews Resident listens.

ElanVitalo Resident and waits.
Raffila Millgrove: well i think we are all faced with a real need to deliver the criticism sometimes.. as in parent/child boss/employee teacher/student .. those times we have an obligation.. to deliver it.
Qt Core: have you got to understand if it is not just ignorance, as you even supposed, Kori ?
Aphrodite Macbain: How does she decide whether to be harsh?
Bruce Mowbray looks around for Kori.
Qt Core: oops
Aphrodite Macbain: Kori isn't here Qt.
ElanVitalo Resident also looks around.
Raffila Millgrove: if you are asked to review a book, obviously you're going to have to deliver the goods.
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can try and make it a broader question not specific to Kori?
druth Vlodovic: for a book review it would depend on the desired audience
ElanVitalo Resident: (Whew! I was beginning to think my circuits needed checking.)
Aphrodite Macbain: The question is HOW to deliver these goods
druth Vlodovic: wholly negative if you have a fox news crowd, wholly positive if it is for a church group
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that criticism, in order to be constructive, should be a transaction between two parties . . . in mutual consent.
Raffila Millgrove: here's part of the thought process on the "how"...

    1. why did they specifically ask you to review? 2. who will read the review?

Aphrodite Macbain: she is angry because the writer writes badly and doesn't know her subject
Bruce Mowbray nods to Raffi.
Aphrodite Macbain: Good questions Raffi.
druth Vlodovic: then I'd suggest something that is educational to the reader of the review, maybe with other suggested readings
Raffila Millgrove mumbles Shades of Grey and falls down laughing over the worst written best seller in recent history.
Aphrodite Macbain: You mean you would pull your punches in certain cases?
Bruce Mowbray: then, perhaps, Kori should ask to know whether she is free to give an honest opinion....
Aphrodite Macbain: good idea
Bruce Mowbray: no, I'm not talking about pulling punches.
druth Vlodovic: maybe keep quiet and hope nobody reads the book
Aphrodite Macbain: that's just an avoidance tactic and doesn't really answer the question druth :)

druth Vlodovic: actually it does, if N Korea left that movie alone I certainly wouldn't want to watch it
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Raffila Millgrove: you know a book review doesn't really call for "constructive" criticism for this reason--the author isn't going to write that book again. Constructive criticism suggests that someone will benefit and use the criticism to improve. A bad writer is unlikely to get much better.
ElanVitalo Resident: hmmm. another good point, Raffi.
SilasAndrews Resident agrees with druth, but really enjoyed the movie anyway ("The Interview")
Aphrodite Macbain: My feeling would be to be hard; it is important to say what you think but say it diplomatically
Qt Core: but the issue is not the form, Raffila, but the content
druth Vlodovic: is she writing to influence people, or to discharge outrage?
druth Vlodovic: in the 2nd case she should write it and put it in a drawer and lock it.
ElanVitalo Resident: hmmm. /me ponders druth's point.
druth Vlodovic: in the 1st case she should review a book that is good
Aphrodite Macbain: she could influence people (the readers) if she is clear, backs up her arguments and doesn't sound too aggressive

druth Vlodovic: unless she feels the book is already having undue influence
Bruce Mowbray: Aggers!
ElanVitalo Resident: Welcome, aggers!
Agatha Macbeth: Howdy doodly doo
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello lovely Aggers
SilasAndrews Resident: Hello, aggers.
druth Vlodovic: hi agg

Qt Core: Hi Agatha

Raffila Millgrove: well who is reading this review really matters.. a lot,  in how you construct it.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't know who is reading the review or where it is being published; should that matter Raffi?
druth Vlodovic: "say it good, or say it bad but say it loud" -some politician who unexpectedly got 20% of the vote due to a smear campaign by his opponent
Aphrodite Macbain: say it loud only if you are airtight in your arguments...
Raffila Millgrove: because if the writer of the book is a member of a community.. has a lot of "fans" already.. and this review is going to be published in some forum composed mostly of.. those already familiar with the author.. you are going to take it easy about just how bad the writing is.. for example.
Aphrodite Macbain: Aggers, do you know what we are talking about?
Agatha Macbeth: Rarely :p
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Agatha Macbeth: But don't let me interrupt

Aphrodite Macbain: Aggers: How to criticize in a manner that is strong but considerate
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Aphrodite Macbain: what is the line between abusive and clear
Agatha Macbeth: Thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: sort of
Raffila Millgrove: and maybe.. we want to just get out of the whole book review thing and discuss constructive criticism more generally.. cause book reviewing is a whole different subject .. really.

druth Vlodovic: constructive criticism face-to-face is a touchier and perhaps a more apt subject
ElanVitalo Resident: so-called "constructive criticism"
Qt Core: i'd say the things change a lot considering our relationship with the one to be criticized
Raffila Millgrove: i listed out a few .. relationships that will require an occasional round of constructive criticism. parent-child employer-employee teacher-student.
druth Vlodovic: maybe we should try to rephrase as "teach" instead of "criticize" when we feel the need to do it
Aphrodite Macbain: There must have been times when we each have had to give criticism about something we feltl was very bad/wrong/inappropriate. How best to offer this criticism so that it has an effect?
druth Vlodovic: I always felt that I was in a teaching role when disciplining my children
Raffila Millgrove: those relationships include a responsibility to another person. or a duty.
Qt Core: and a dependency situation from the other side
Aphrodite Macbain: good point druth; this magazine's role is to teach and inform
Bruce Mowbray: Each of those "constructs" is part of the established context - and criticism is expected (by supervisors, for example)... but speaking in general, I feel that criticism should be a mutually consented to transaction.
druth Vlodovic: which makes it easier, since when teaching is futile or counter-productive it is easier to abandon it rather than when one is set to criticize
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Raffila Millgrove: uh oh.. unexpected guest arrives real time.. please excuse me. hugs all around. xo
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Raffi
druth Vlodovic: have fun raff
ElanVitalo Resident: bye.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hugs
SilasAndrews Resident: bye.
Qt Core: bye Raffi
Bruce Mowbray: bye bye.
druth Vlodovic: it also helps establish the relationship, "do I have a right to teach this person?"
ElanVitalo Resident: good point, druth.
Qt Core: he asked for it
Aphrodite Macbain: Kori has been invited to write this article, so she has been given permission and maybe the right to offer her opinion
Qt Core: so he is implying you know about it, maybe just from a different pov
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Aph -- but still thinks Kori needs to check it out and be sure that her honest opinion is being sought.

druth Vlodovic: maybe they are seeking a dishonest opinion
 

Korel arrives on line

Agatha Macbeth: Talk of the devil
Bruce Mowbray: YAYYY!
ElanVitalo Resident looks around for devil.
Aphrodite Macbain can't see Korel
druth Vlodovic: no devil
Agatha Macbeth: Well she just came on
Agatha Macbeth: And here she is!
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe Internet problems
Agatha Macbeth: Osiyo cherie
druth Vlodovic: lol, "devil" is supposed to mean someone who takes the opposite side to test things ... a propros of nothing of course
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Korel
ElanVitalo Resident: YAYYY!
SilasAndrews Resident: Heya, Kori.
Korel Laloix: Oh no.. what did I just walk into?
druth Vlodovic: hi Kori

druth Vlodovic: ah! the morning star!

QtCore: Hi Korel
Agatha Macbeth: The Lucifer's exponent
Aphrodite Macbain: so glad you came. We started without you
Bruce Mowbray: Good that you're here, Kori.
Bruce Mowbray: We have been CRITICISING you unmercifully.
Korel Laloix: Perfect... just like normal.
Aphrodite Macbain: No we haven't Korel
Agatha Macbeth: Except you came early
ElanVitalo Resident watches for reaction.
SilasAndrews Resident waits for Aph to explain.
Korel Laloix smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: we just wished you were here so we could discuss this issue more usefully
Korel Laloix: Which one?
Aphrodite Macbain: the one about criticism
Korel Laloix: Oh Ok....
druth Vlodovic: book reviews
Bruce Mowbray: We were all hoping you would be here, Kori -- or at least four of us were.
Aphrodite Macbain: we were going to discuss it today...
Korel Laloix smiles
Bruce Mowbray: oh, you meant which question. I thought you meant which of us wanted to see you.
druth Vlodovic: we had just decided you should get paid in advance so you can be open about it
Korel Laloix: Yes, I gave up four things for talking about.
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe you can describe the situation in your own words Korel.
Korel Laloix: OK
Bruce Mowbray: (having troubles... must relog, brb.)
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Korel Laloix: I have been asked to do a book review, because I am college educated, non white and female... with a few other qualifications in there. So I am mostly done with it and I find it lightly offensive and really think it would damage its target audience.
Korel Laloix: OK.. just saw what Aph put up.
druth Vlodovic: the review?
Korel Laloix: The book would be damaging, not my review.
ElanVitalo Resident: I think Kori means that the book might damage its readers.
ElanVitalo Resident: snap.
druth Vlodovic: lol, maybe you should start with "I have been asked to write this because I am college educated, not white and female and am offended by the opportunity."
Korel Laloix: So the question is..... where do I draw the line between offering constructive criticism, vs tell them off or scolding them?
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you Kori
Korel Laloix smiles
Korel Laloix: So a little more.
Aphrodite Macbain: who would you be telling off?
Aphrodite Macbain: the writer?
Korel Laloix: First.. the books is advertised for "young women of color"...
Korel Laloix: Yes, I would be berating the author I guess.. or publisher.
Aphrodite Macbain: did the publisher promote it as a book for "young women of color"?
Korel Laloix: But it is clearly meant for girls of African heritage... not Asian, native American, islanders, etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: How do you know Kori?
Korel Laloix: Because it is in the title.
Korel Laloix: (Not sure I can say, based on some things.)
Aphrodite Macbain: the term "women of colour" covers a wide range of people
Agatha Macbeth: Dead giveaway...
Aphrodite Macbain: basically, it means non whites
Korel Laloix: I know.. but it is not that.. it is specifically writing for African heritage.
Korel Laloix: So when they say it is for people of color, that is wrong.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Korel Laloix: I hate that term anyway.
Korel Laloix: But at least be inclusive.
Aphrodite Macbain: many hate it (looks at druth)
druth Vlodovic: or exclusive
Korel Laloix: I hate to say, I run into that with a lot of blacks thinking they are the only minority in the country.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think so, Aph. If that is the same book I heard discussed on public radio, the audience is clearly Black girls and women.
druth Vlodovic: if the advice etc is specific to situation
Korel Laloix: So it is sort of offensive...
ElanVitalo Resident nods and agrees.
druth Vlodovic: prejudice isn't exclusive to "majorities," it is a human trait; it has positive aspects when used properly
Aphrodite Macbain: Do they not talk about Native Americans in the book at all?

Korel Laloix: Not in the first 3/4 (of the book).

Korel Laloix: I asked my "of color" non black gal pals, and they (also) find it either odd or offensive.
SilasAndrews Resident feels that so-called "political correctness" has gone way too far in America. Whatever happened to free speech?
druth Vlodovic: what does the book say for its target audience?
Aphrodite Macbain: Free speech is not always well informed
druth Vlodovic: what is it's stated purpose?
Korel Laloix: I have no issues with the concept, just the way it was put out.
ElanVitalo Resident: Tell it like you see it Kori!
Korel Laloix: One second.. will see what I can push.
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps your criticism should be in the form of a series of questions
Aphrodite Macbain: challenging, clearly stated questions...

Korel Laloix: That is a good idea...
Bruce Mowbray ponders that things written in Charlie Hebdo would never be allowed to be spoken or published by American colleges. It would be called "hate speech."
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly Bruce
ElanVitalo Resident nods, agrees.

SilasAndrews Resident nods agrees.

Aphrodite Macbain: the questions may force the reader of the article, the writer and the publisher to think more critically
Korel Laloix: The purpose is to present ideas of faith from a young woman of color perspective.
Korel Laloix: My second point is this....
Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear,,,,
Bruce Mowbray: "ideas of faith..."
Korel Laloix: My bias is that I am an academic.... I like good research and footnotes and all.
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands and listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Agatha Macbeth nods
Korel Laloix: So when someone makes an assertion, I like to know where to find the research (sources) so I can read it.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bad scholarship is more easily criticized
Korel Laloix: Those markings (footnotes) are completely absent... there are lines like, "there are some archaeologists who think..."
ElanVitalo Resident: Say that the book should have better documentation, Kori.
Agatha Macbeth: That's assuming there *is* research of course...;p
ElanVitalo Resident also sits on hands.
Aphrodite Macbain: I hate that
Agatha Macbeth: Weasel words
Korel Laloix: So just poor (scholarship).....

Aphrodite Macbain: sloppy thinking and misleading to the reader

Bruce Mowbray: Indeed... It sounds quite sloppy.
Korel Laloix: And the third issue for me is essentially using Ebonics language...
Aphrodite Macbain: Ebonics language?
Korel Laloix: First, that is another point that points it (primarily) at the African American crowd.
Korel Laloix: One sec.
Bruce Mowbray: American Black so-called "English"
Bruce Mowbray: soundly rejected by almost all educated Black people, however (and also by my typist's Black students when he taught at the prison).
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh. new word for me
Korel Laloix: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa...acular_English
Aphrodite Macbain: that is referred to as Ebonics Kori?
Bruce Mowbray: yup.
Korel Laloix: They don't go full into it, but they use it quite a lot... apparently to make it sound cool.
Bruce Mowbray: omg.
Qt Core: and the book is wrote by a white? a black ?
Aphrodite Macbain: Does the writer ever use Native American slang ?

Korel Laloix: I have not found any, but our slang is not very consistent

druth Vlodovic: there are many "native American" linguistic groups, and many "black" linguistic groups as well, any common accent would likely be regional in usage and origin

Aphrodite Macbain: It seems to be biased in the extreme if they do this. Who are the writer(s)?
Korel Laloix: The publisher puts out more books to this audience... so I think those are the writers.
druth Vlodovic: yes, what is the writer in terms of race, religion etc.?Aphrodite Macbain: Look to the person who is writing it and consider what biases they have that could bias the text.

SilasAndrews Resident: I suggest two things (not that my opinion was called for, as Bruce suggested): (1) Request clarification of what is expected of you, and (2) give 'em both barrels (honesty about what you think, Kori).

ElanVitalo Resident agrees Kori should confirm request, then give 'em both barrels.
Aphrodite Macbain: That would be a good question to ask. "Who is this writer anyway?"

Korel Laloix: So to me... to put it all together.....it is mildly offensive as the title does not match the what is written. It is sloppily done in terms of preparing girls to respond to questions.
Korel Laloix: And third, it counteracts what so many educators try to do by promoting good language skills.

Aphrodite Macbain: Try and put these observations in the form of questions. You don't need to be harsh. Just calm and rational
Bruce Mowbray nods and agrees with Kori.

Korel Laloix: Soooo. to me..... It is not just bad, it is damaging...
Aphrodite Macbain: Ask that question too. What damage could be done (to the readers)
Korel Laloix: So exactly... do I just lay it out with some constructive criticism.... or do I really say how misguided and potentially damaging this is?
Aphrodite Macbain: make em think about it
SilasAndrews Resident agrees with Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: you don't need to say that
Aphrodite Macbain: just ask it
SilasAndrews Resident: Make em think. . .
druth Vlodovic: who are you writing for?
Aphrodite Macbain: the answer is obvious...
ElanVitalo Resident: Good point, Aph.
Korel Laloix: The book review will appear on a website that talks about books along these lines.
Bruce Mowbray listens, chews peanuts.
Aphrodite Macbain: Ask what your readers think about the fact that the text is written in African American slang even when non African Americans were being discussed
Aphrodite Macbain: Would they conclude that there is a bias ?
druth Vlodovic: is it a religious website?
druth Vlodovic: or a racial one?

Korel Laloix: Mostly a faith website.
Bruce Mowbray: omg.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol you could also have a go at the website itself!
Bruce Mowbray remembers recently, when Sunshine was asked about Kwanza (holiday), she responded that Kwanza was an American invention and Americans should tell HER about it - not asking an African about it.
Korel Laloix: I found another review already from an African American father who bought the books for his daughter and did not give them to them as he found them bad as well.. so at least one other poor review out there.
Aphrodite Macbain: good
Aphrodite Macbain: you may want to refer to it in your review
Korel Laloix: Those are some good thoughts.
Aphrodite Macbain: You don't need to be nasty Korel, just smart

Agatha Macbeth: She *is* smart
Aphrodite Macbain: I know :-)

SilasAndrews Resident agrees with aggers about Kori.

Korel Laloix: I like the idea of asking questions.
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you?
ElanVitalo Resident nods, agrees with Aph.
druth Vlodovic: so you have to have a spiritual face to the review, is this good from the pov of faith?
Aphrodite Macbain: Why? :-)
druth Vlodovic: is there a specific group who might benefit from the methodology?

Aphrodite Macbain: African Americans I guess druth
Korel Laloix: I don't want to be nasty... but in the end I have to say... I recommend this book or not....

Aphrodite Macbain: then (politely) don't recommend it, and provide a series of reasons why you don't...
Korel Laloix: I know... good things to think about.
druth Vlodovic: it sounds like an approach to "reach those who don't respond to this sort of book"
Korel Laloix: I intended to do that for sure.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
druth Vlodovic: would it?
Bruce Mowbray agrees with druth.
Korel Laloix: But.. should I criticize the whole concept?
Aphrodite Macbain: You decide
druth Vlodovic: maybe you need to ask someone who speaks with the same accent used in the book?
Aphrodite Macbain: Simply identify what you agree with and what you don't (with references)
druth Vlodovic: what do you think of the concept, aside from this implementation?

Aphrodite Macbain: what concept druth?
Korel Laloix: I have not asked any of my African Am pals yet.. but I am going to.
ElanVitalo Resident: good idea, Kori.
Korel Laloix: I don't mind the idea...
Korel Laloix: I just can't stand this implementation.
Qt Core: how long has this review to be ? How many of its wrong ideas can you write about ?
druth Vlodovic: ask them if they know anyone who talks like that, see if they find it mocking or accessible
Korel Laloix: I read writers that go right at my perspective for sure.
Aphrodite Macbain: they should simply say the book is directed at African American girls
ElanVitalo Resident: ... and give better documentation.
Korel Laloix: yes, African American girls that want to perform poorly in school.
druth Vlodovic: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: You are getting lots of fine advice Korel. Now you need to sit with it and ask others
druth Vlodovic: well, get them to read anything and work your way up, I have heard of people using comic books to improve literacy, even though most aren't Shakespeare
Aphrodite Macbain: That might be a good one druth
Aphrodite Macbain: what is literacy?
Aphrodite Macbain: and how do you become literate?
druth Vlodovic: but a bad implementation just confirms that intellectuals are idiots
Bruce Mowbray: hmmm. ponders "literacy"
druth Vlodovic: many "disadvantaged" start with this assumption
Aphrodite Macbain: Does anyone here have suggestions for other theme topics? I'd like to start a process of everyone being involved in creating themes

ElanVitalo Resident: There's also something called "cultural literacy."
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: a whole other thing
ElanVitalo Resident: which would imply the "dominant culture," I suppose.
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) Thanks for introducing this subject Korel. I hope we helped a bit

Bruce Mowbray: Thank you Aph.

Korel Laloix: Yes, thanks. It gave me a couple of things to think about.
druth Vlodovic: "just a couple white guys talking black for no reason!" - the guy who played Mork
Aphrodite Macbain: Talking black is "cool" for many
Korel Laloix: The whole thing is just a bit odd to me anyway.
Aphrodite Macbain: Please feel free to suggest other themes everyone
ElanVitalo Resident: Bye for now. Thanks Aph and everyone.
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) yw
SilasAndrews Resident: Bye.
Korel Laloix: ciao
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Silas
Qt Core: bye Bruce, Elan, Silas
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Elan
druth Vlodovic: umm, subjectivity?
Agatha Macbeth waves
Aphrodite Macbain watches all 3 skate away over the horizon
Korel Laloix: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: subjectivity?
druth Vlodovic: for a subject
Aphrodite Macbain: could you be more specific?
druth Vlodovic: no?
druth Vlodovic: not on purpose anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: an enormous subject
Aphrodite Macbain: can you turn it into a question?
Korel Laloix: Literacy is an odd topic.... or at least in my view. Some things to think about.
Korel Laloix: And so is subjectivity.

Aphrodite Macbain: It's better if it is asked in the form of a question: e.g. what is it to be literate?

druth Vlodovic: oh, before I suggested that the review could be made itself educational, since it will be read by people thinking about the book, and therefore the subject, maybe you could include a "read this instead" list.
Korel Laloix: That is a good idea as well druth.. thanks.
Korel Laloix: Like take one of the poorly supported assertions and support an opposite.
Aphrodite Macbain: Good luck Korel
druth Vlodovic: eh, maybe avoid confrontation, it tends to feed strong opinions

Korel Laloix: And that is one of my concerns.

Agatha Macbeth watches Aph go for a walk
druth Vlodovic: but if it is an opinion piece then there is no reason a review can't be one too
druth Vlodovic: "this reads like an editorial"
Korel Laloix: I want to be read and understood, not have someone put up walls to my ideas.
Qt Core: time to go for me, bye all
Agatha Macbeth: Ciao QT
Korel Laloix: Ciao.. thanks.
druth Vlodovic: that is either descriptive or effusive or negative depending on the reader
druth Vlodovic: ttfn guys
Korel Laloix: That was very helpful actually.
Korel Laloix: Thanks again.
druth Vlodovic: ty :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Druthy