2016.07.14 13:00 - TSK Session: But There is Poetry

The Guardians for this meeting were Eliza and Mick.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi there
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
Mickorod Renard: I wonder who will turn up
Eliza Madrigal guesses.... Eden, Tura, Bleu, Mick... maybe Wol and Bruce :) (going by regulars and who is online already lol)
Mickorod Renard: I have to offer an appol as i havnt managed to do anything tsk this week
Eliza Madrigal: oh dear, was counting on your report :)
Mickorod Renard: erk,,i planned on this afternoon sorting something
Eliza Madrigal: I wonder if Riddle was placed on jury duty for the whole week
Mickorod Renard: oh yes
Mickorod Renard: maybe
Mickorod Renard: i had a drama in rl where my son was in an accident
Mickorod Renard: Hi Tura

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: oh no, Mick....all okay?
Tura Brezoianu: hi Mick, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :) cute pants... would buy those in RL!
Mickorod Renard: he will be ok i am sure
Eliza Madrigal: will be okay... sounds somewhat serious
Mickorod Renard: but i have had some odd shedules to meet and they mixed me up some
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu and Eden :)
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi bleu, eden
Eliza Madrigal: pretty lavender, Eden...and with sitting pants :)
Eden Haiku: Good afternoon/ night everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal notices Bleu's bright red nailpolish
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I guess no need to wait for others... Riddle may still be in jury duty!
Mickorod Renard: yes, maybe
Bleu Oleander: probably :)

Beginning...

Mickorod Renard: I was just apologising to Eliza for being distracted this week with rl
Mickorod Renard: and apol to you all too
Eliza Madrigal: :) no apologies necessary, Mick
Mickorod Renard: for not having a report
Mickorod Renard: :) ty
Eliza Madrigal: We are at the last chapter of the TIME section.. perhaps getting back into rhythm together
Mickorod Renard: I did do a report at the end of the before break
Eliza Madrigal: does anyone else have a report about 9 or any of the exercises earlier?
Mickorod Renard: and may or may not have presented it
Eliza Madrigal: I think only Eden and Riddle gave reports last week, but perhaps before then Mick
Eliza Madrigal: And Bruce shared about family, which was a report in itself as well :)
Eliza Madrigal: you may have been traveling
Eden Haiku: Soory, I have trouble following. Can't find the nearby chat box. Checking preferences...
Mickorod Renard: mmm just read my last one,,some strange tale of an african village ,,I cant even remember it
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I posted my report on the page for today's session
Eliza Madrigal: it was longish, so shared ahead of time
Eden Haiku: oh, thanks Eliza :)
Mickorod Renard: oh ! not seen it yet
Eliza Madrigal: can read after session :)

Eliza's report:
2016.07.13 - Sound, Intimacy and Play

This week's page:
https://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=Classes_and_Sessions/Time%2C_Space%2C_and_Knowledge/Time%2C_Space%2C_and_Knowledge_-_Part_2_%5BTIME%5D/2016.07.14_-_CHAPTER_NINE:_About_the_Transition_to_Third_Stage

Bleu Oleander: ah will read ... thank you Eliza
Eden Haiku: Didin,t read it yet either
Eliza Madrigal: What it is about, is integration and transition
Mickorod Renard: thanks eliza
Eliza Madrigal: which is also where we are in the book
Eliza Madrigal: Chapter nine is an interesting one
Mickorod Renard: can you say more eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: which sort of blends first and second level time into a more cohesive opening to 3rd level
Eliza Madrigal: (according to the book's vision)
Eliza Madrigal: this is where I think the radicalness of the vision may be most obvious
Mickorod Renard: ahhh!
Bleu Oleander: how do you perceive the different levels?
Mickorod Renard: he he ..in a nut shell
Eliza Madrigal: Well, nicely, here is where he includes the first level as 'none other' .... hm, let me try to articulate...
Bleu Oleander: is it a different stance you take in reference to your understanding of time?
Eliza Madrigal: the way of the teaching seems to be that in order to fully entertain the notions of other or more open ways of time, first level time is sort of set aside as that, intentionally....
Eliza Madrigal: not that ordinary time IS less
Eliza Madrigal: but that this is the way to the opening
Eliza Madrigal: then incorporating back in
Eden Haiku: Ah! Chatbox was hiding in a corner! Found ité Reading back:)
Eliza Madrigal: so if we were cooking....
Eliza Madrigal: we might mix some ingredients and set them aside
Eliza Madrigal: then fold them back in later :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Eden

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: I don't see levels of time ... trying to understand what the author means, but actually all my thoughts about time occur within time ... are essentially temporal ... am I missing a key point somewhere?
Mickorod Renard: ok,,so let me think..ordinary or 1st time is that that we generally experience?
Eliza Madrigal: the third level time is really meaningful to me because I was one of the types of people he talks about in chapter nine, who might 'stop' at the visions/miracles level of things and stagnate as though they achieved something
Eliza Madrigal: yes Mick
Eliza Madrigal: it is, in the book, a kind of background or frame to experience
Eliza Madrigal: 'our' doings and goings etc
Mickorod Renard: ty, but in reality its only a small part that one saves on the side?
Eliza Madrigal: well, at least the way I read it, to throw it into question is how to open to more possiblities..
Eliza Madrigal: the zig zag diagrams and spontaneous surprising patterns etc

Chronos and Kairos Time

Eden Haiku: Maybe it's something similar to kairos time compared to chronos time?
Mickorod Renard: yes, I guess that was the 'possibilities' ..sort of forgotten,,but the reason for reading the book
Eliza Madrigal: that's a good example Eden
Bleu Oleander: what is meant by kairos vs chronos time?
Eliza Madrigal: it isn't that ordinary time, linear time, is actually lower.... the levels are just to make it easy to practice
Mickorod Renard: what are the diferences between those Eden, if i may ask
Eliza Madrigal listens
Eden Haiku: Time flowing by or a glimpse of eternity in "kairos" moments
Tura Brezoianu: I think I heard of kairos/chronos before somewhere, but I'd like to hear more about them
Bleu Oleander: what is kairos?
Eden Haiku: Chronos is flowiing from past to future and kairos is the eternity of "now'
Bleu Oleander: ah ty!
Eden Haiku: Like when your breath is taken away by beauty let's say...
Eliza Madrigal: so kairos may appear 'miraculous' , 'transcendental'
Mickorod Renard: so in the cooking version, the cooking is whats bubbling in the pot..time flowing,,and the stuff on the side is our present experiences?
Eden Haiku: Yes, that is what you meant earlier Eliza I think, about some people getting "stuck" at that level...
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Mickorod Renard: and we are tryig to experience more of whats cooking in the pot?
Eliza Madrigal: my cooking analogy is really incomplete, but almost good... we may chase ingredients have have 'to do' lists at first, prep work
Eliza Madrigal: 'things'
Bleu Oleander: hiya Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)) I'll make you a notecard
Wol Euler: evning all, thank you
Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol

Eden Haiku: Stuff on the side our ^resent experince? No I think the tasty meal from the pot would be the "kairos", Once the "boiling is done and the blending is done:)
Eden Haiku: Hello Wol :)
Wol Euler: ty, reading
Eliza Madrigal: yes that's better Eden....
Eliza Madrigal: although third level time has no real analogy
Eden Haiku: I guess so :)

Mickorod Renard: is the kairos bit generally missed in everyday exerience?
Eliza Madrigal: bright and cute today Wollie ^^
Bleu Oleander: what convinces you that there is a 3rd level?
Wol Euler: aww thank you <3
Eden Haiku: Kairos is exceptional yes :)
Mickorod Renard: :) ty
Bleu Oleander: is kairos like flow?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eden Haiku: In another metaphor it could be the flow, but it's more a hiatus in time, a freezing of time, the zeroeth time.

Bleu Oleander: in flow, time takes a backseat
Eden Haiku: Chronos time is taking us from the past into the present and then in the future. That one is a river :)
Eliza Madrigal: "Eternity is not a long time; rather, it is another dimension. It is that dimension to which time-thinking shuts us. And so there never was a creation. Rather, there is a continuous creating going on." Joseph Campbell
Eliza Madrigal: He seems to say something slightly different.... but again, close
Eden Haiku: The backseat Bleu was talking about :)
Bleu Oleander: :)

Mickorod Renard: so, can we sort of take a step back out from our usual observations and view a diferent form of time ..like as described?
Bleu Oleander: what do you make of the understanding that on the smallest levels of the universe there is no arrow of time ... no past or future distinctions?
Eliza Madrigal: in TSK, at third level, there is no "existence" ... not that there is no existence posited, but there isn't conception of time
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, isn't that why we play in these contemplative ways?
Mickorod Renard: what would the experience of the 3rd version be like?
Mickorod Renard: yes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: there wouldn't be an experiencer to say what it is like?

--BELL--

Wol Euler: what would we experience without time to experience it in?
Bleu Oleander: then it just wouldn't ever be known?
Mickorod Renard: just a sort of shock realization
Mickorod Renard: ?
Wol Euler: (I've not read it, just listening and responding now)
Eliza Madrigal: or there would be just the knowing
Eliza Madrigal: I think the 'shocks' are the so called miracles or uncanny moments and flow times , when they are new
Mickorod Renard: i get them wierd moments..where something diferenent about everything flashes up and its a wow..

The way I understand Great Time (or kairos) is like in an experience I already share at PaB. I was about 8 years old, playing bolo on bright day where the sun was melting. Nothing else happened. Yet I remember that moment with a great acuity.It is still as real now as it was when I was 8 years old. I am sure you all have something similar.
[the last line is paraphrased since the log had some glitches including removing that sentence and scattering it around all over the rest of the log]
Bleu Oleander: yep
Tura Brezoianu: The sun was melting?
Wol Euler: Rosebud! :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eden Haiku: Soory the sun was melting the snow, I skipped a word:)

Mickorod Renard: I wonder sometimes whether when Pema mentioned nonsuch..was it? whether this is the state of the third type?
Eliza Madrigal: somewhat different than a 'defining moment'... as there isn't any 'reason' it is defining
Wol Euler: ah :))
Bleu Oleander: if we can't experience the 3rd level, how do we know it exitsts?
Eliza Madrigal: suchness, Mick? nonself?
Wol Euler: the same is true of South America, Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: in what sense :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think of 3rd level as what we get glimpses of in those uncanny serendipidous moments
Wol Euler: i have to believe cartographers and people who *claim* to have been there ...
Bleu Oleander: yes, but possible to go there and experience it
Mickorod Renard: yes, maybe suchness..cant remember now
Bleu Oleander: suchness = 3rd level of time?</m>

Lia

Eden Haiku: Wasn't some girl in PaB,—can't remember her name (she was attending the Time sessions on voice); she called these moments her "happy place", Not sure if it was what she meant though...
Mickorod Renard: Wol, do you mean like remote viewers?
Eliza Madrigal: in the book, in this chapter, what is revealed in second level is the openness behind appearances....
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes ... drawing a blank for her name...
Eliza Madrigal: and I even met her. @@ as did others... LIA
Bleu Oleander: yes, remember happy place but not who said that
Eden Haiku: Lia!!!
Wol Euler: ah yes!
Mickorod Renard: ah Lia
Eliza Madrigal: her sallies to her happy place
Eden Haiku: waving to Lia:)
Bleu Oleander: oh yes!
Wol Euler smiles.
Mickorod Renard: princess lia
Wol Euler: *baroness :)
Eliza Madrigal: and those in Malta got to go on one with her :)
Eden Haiku: Don't you think she meant something like that 3rd level of time ?
Eliza Madrigal: some people talk about 'returning to source' or 'source consciounsess'
Eliza Madrigal: so maybe similar?
Eden Haiku: The level where we are one with the whole universe:)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, 'no time'
Eliza Madrigal: but I think if still conceptions and a story.... still 2nd level</m>

Mickorod Renard: I am tempted to drift into impermanence again
Eliza Madrigal: seems on pointe Mick
Eden Haiku: hum...
Eden Haiku: Mandala of time is quite complex:)
Eliza Madrigal smiles, for sure
Eliza Madrigal: or at least our articulating it!

Eden Haiku: Yes, it,s hard to "get" it :P
Bleu Oleander: seems simple to experience it, but difficult to put it into specific concepts
Eden Haiku: E=mc2
Eden Haiku: He said it all :)
Eliza Madrigal: I can say there is a difference between normal, flowy, miraculous, transcendent experientially, beyond experience... way more than 3 levels - then 'no time' or 'timelessness' which throws into question both experience and experiencer
Bleu Oleander: I don't see the need to place labels/concept overlays on experience within time
Mickorod Renard: and to be able to be able to , at will, bring about that way of observation and to gain some feeling of value from it
Eliza Madrigal: maybe not a curiosity or 'need' for everyone... for me there was a compelling quest
Eliza Madrigal: and now I just enjoy it
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eden Haiku: :)
Bleu Oleander: aren't these ideas all part of your thoughts, perceivings, imagining that happen in time? temporal in nature?

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: we are 'in time' or perceive ourselves in time, mostly, outside of some transcendent moments... yet if there are 'moments' that are quite different... that at least opens the question of even greater openness that is expressing through those moments/appearances of time

Bleu Oleander: to me that all seems to be mental perceptions within time ... even feelings of transcendence
Eden Haiku: Interesting Eliza, an openness...
Eden Haiku: Yes, we are all living in time that is obvious Bleu:)

Mickorod Renard: I muse over the questions i ask myself,,re should I spend valuable time looking for more..or should i waste time overlooking a more wider vision of time
Eden Haiku: We are all talking in prose :)
Bleu Oleander: its obvious in one sense, but there is the thought that we can escape time into a sort of birds-eye view
Eden Haiku: But there is poetry in the world :)
Bleu Oleander: agree that!
Mickorod Renard: lost eliza
Bleu Oleander: so many ways of taking about experience
Eden Haiku: When Leonard Cohen writes "Suzanne" he touches not only her perfect body but some mysterious place in our whole being too :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, its all facinating stuff...

Eden Haiku: Eliza whent to Great Time without even warning us :)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Wol Euler smiles.
Eden Haiku: She could have taken us with her at least :)
Bleu Oleander: I think there is also different language with different ways of talking about the world
Bleu Oleander: some of my difficulty with TSK is the mix of language
Bleu Oleander: wb!
Eden Haiku: Yes Bleu and maybe we are trying to find a common language in our group study of TSK?
Tura Brezoianu: welcome back from Great Time, Eliza
Mickorod Renard: for sure, i am not very good at consistancy with words either
Eliza Madrigal: sorry, internet reset
Eliza Madrigal: :) Tura
Bleu Oleander: yes Eden!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
Eden Haiku: Welcome back, how was the 3rd level Eliza?
Bleu Oleander: for me there are scientific ways of describing and poetic ways
Eliza Madrigal giggling
Eliza Madrigal: experiential seems somewhere between those
Eden Haiku: Mathematics we could all agree upon. But I'n mot good at maths :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eden Haiku: So we have to struggle with words: :a rose is a rose is a rose" as Gertrude Stein did put it.
Eliza Madrigal: I think there is a difference to my life and the possibilities I 'allow in' and the room for surprise, when I play with these ideas...
Eliza Madrigal: so if, for a placemark we use levels terms, knowing they aren't 'real', it seems still worthwhile
Eden Haiku: "Time is time is time is time is time is"...
Bleu Oleander: TSK seems poetic to me, not scientific and I can appreciate it on the poetic level ... different ways of expression
Eden Haiku: It's mainly tibetan I think: neither scientific nor poetic :)
Mickorod Renard: I think we also have differences too that can present variations in interpretation, ie our live styles our ages and locations etc etc// we all have to find our own understanding from our own viewpoint
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eden Haiku: Yes, Mick,
Eliza Madrigal: it is hard to know how others 'feel' the world too, if they are feeling differently and describing it one way or another.

Tura Brezoianu: A lot of the exercises are like moving from seeing a picture to seeing the pixels it's made of. Not sure how these viewpoints relate to the levels though.
Eliza Madrigal: I like that, yes the 'behind the scenes'
Eden Haiku: Keen example Tura!
Tura Brezoianu: And the spaces between the pixels. The spaces between thoughts, or between sounds
Mickorod Renard: even on an individual stand point we differ from day to day and moods etc...I notice these issues when I want to paint or create
Eden Haiku: Tibertan monks start noticing the spaces between thoughts when they are still toddlers. We are very late bloomers:)
Bleu Oleander: the concept of levels seems linear to me but my experience of time seems more fluid, undefined
Bleu Oleander: all levels swirl together in time
Eliza Madrigal nods.... I don't see a disagreement there... if articulating, maybe one would try to describe the swirl from this angle or that
Eden Haiku: You are right about linearity seemed as "ordinary" in TSK. All these monks were men, any woman is less linear, and creators even less:)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Eden
Mickorod Renard: I suspect they do for me too, but its nice to think there are levels that we may be able to seperate and experience diferently occasionally

--BELL--
 

Eden Haiku: Yes Mick. It's a transmission through centuries of practices for sure.
Bleu Oleander: interesting Eden :)
Eden Haiku: We evidently find value in it even if it as as "cold tea leaves ":)
Eden Haiku: Here we are again, studying TSK, talking about it :)

Mickorod Renard: just as a general observation, pab has expanded my appreciation of life without me really noticing the transition, i hope tsk is doing so too
Eden Haiku: Oh, wonderful Mick!
Eliza Madrigal: that's a lovely observation Mick
Bleu Oleander: nice Mick!
Wol Euler smiles.
Mickorod Renard: I was just thinking that we may not have a huge eureka moment..but descretly gain something
Eliza Madrigal nods... easy does it
Eden Haiku: The sun is back shining after the rain! I will bow to you all, thank you and take my leave now:)

Mickorod Renard: a lovely session Eliza,,and all without a report
Eliza Madrigal: Good to see you Eden, enjoy!
Bleu Oleander waves to Eden, take care
Eden Haiku: Se you soon:)
Mickorod Renard: bye eden
Eliza Madrigal: haha Mick, yes - reports are straw dogs
Wol Euler: bye eden
Mickorod Renard: well, i suppose I had better make sure the kids are fast asleep
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Mickorod Renard: i seem to have 3 tonite
Eliza Madrigal: and me...to take George out in the horrible heat
Bleu Oleander: dont' forget out party this sunday at 1:30
Wol Euler: ah right!
Eliza Madrigal: yes! I'll send another email before then
Mickorod Renard: ok great, I will try not to miss it
Bleu Oleander: kk :)
Wol Euler: take care, everyone
Eliza Madrigal: and notices... since some don't look at emails
Mickorod Renard: bye all take care
Eliza Madrigal: take care friends
Wol Euler: <3
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for being here and all the interesting angles
Bleu Oleander: take care and see you then
Mickorod Renard: x to all
Eliza Madrigal: xoxoxo
Tura Brezoianu: is that the sun shining out of your...
Bleu Oleander: xoxoxo
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal grins!! Mick's onigokko
Eliza Madrigal: used to be pink
Wol Euler: heheheh
Eliza Madrigal: guess someone made him a new one
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight all
Eliza Madrigal laughs... was a piggy tail before
Eliza Madrigal: Night Tura! <3</m>