Page last modified 23:53, 24 Jul 2016 by eliza
PlayAsBeing Wiki > Chat Logs > 2016 > 07 > 2016.07.24 14:00 - Guardian Meeting: Purposes, Politics, and Plights
2016.07.24 14:00 - Guardian Meeting: Purposes, Politics, and Plights
Table of contents
No headersAttending today's Guardian Session were Aphrodite, Druth, Zen, Mick, Bleu, Xirana, Qt, and Eliza. We talked about talking about politics and world events, and perhaps, how to do so while keeping the heart of the group open. Beginning text, full of greetings and weather comparisons, is posted after the conversation on the session topic.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hey Mick
Qt Core: hi Mick
druth Vlodovic: we need controversy to attract people
Eliza Madrigal: we haven't really begun.... but might as well :))
druth Vlodovic: first order of business, I propose that we rename the sessions to "Guardian Meeting Organizationals" so we can call them GMO's
Eliza Madrigal: ewwww lol
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): lol
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ha!
Zen (zen.arado): :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Did everyone read my into email about today's session topic? I will link to the PaB session that brought it up.... 2016.07.19 07:00 - Suffering in Cleveland - Must Read
Mickorod Renard: erm
Eliza Madrigal: Riddle asks some questions of us
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes, saw that
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): reads
Eliza Madrigal gives everyone a few minutes to read :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I didn't read it tho, lol
Bleu (bleu.oleander): reading now
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: love the intro to the chatlog though
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what would bring us together rather than dividing us?
Eliza Madrigal: that's a pertinent question
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): a bottle of wine?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :)
Eliza Madrigal: chocolate....
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): that too
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): finding a common point of agreement is a challenge
Bleu (bleu.oleander): wine and chocolate
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I agree
Eliza Madrigal: disagreeing in civil ways is possible
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes
Zen (zen.arado): you hardly ever see a black person in Northern Ireland
druth Vlodovic: are we a polite society or an adventurous one?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Organizations are joined by a set of common values or purposes
Eliza Madrigal: both
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I think you can be both
Eliza Madrigal: like wine and chocolate, with a kick of hot pepper maybe
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and salt
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yep
Zen (zen.arado): we have enough trouble just getting Catholics and Protestants to get on together
Eliza Madrigal: I like that we don't exclude any topic really... but we also tend to talk around political things
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what common values or purposes link us?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): why are we members of PaB?
Eliza Madrigal: although, what Riddle and Adams are talking about, isn't mere politics perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: I ask myself all the time, Aph, hahah
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :-)
Eliza Madrigal: "and I say to myself, how did I get here?"!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and why am I staying?
Zen (zen.arado): I think there are a lot of discontented people out there and then someone comes along who promises to change everything for the better
Eliza Madrigal: Zen do you still have deliberate peace making talks and such there? I'm sure much learned
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): with simplistic solutions
Zen (zen.arado): yes but they don't care about that they just want a change from the old system
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): which is simplistic
Zen (zen.arado): no politicians ever spell out in detail how they will achieve anything do they?
Eliza Madrigal: because no politician can do anything of themselves
Eliza Madrigal: all alone
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): The Democrats are good at policy
Zen (zen.arado): It's all vague promises
Eliza Madrigal: so weird how we elevate one person to "fix things"
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): the Republicans dont have a plan at all
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes Eliza
Mickorod Renard: even in ones own family its hard not to have some conflict
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yep
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Conflict and disagreement can be very valuable. It's the manner in which we handle it that matters
Zen (zen.arado): I don't really think politicians, even presidents, have all that much control really
Zen (zen.arado): I have to do what the electorate allow them to do
Mickorod Renard: true, and I am not very good at it
Zen (zen.arado): and the world economic systems et cetera
Eliza Madrigal: nods
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): smiles at Mick - it's not easy
Eliza Madrigal: can't ignore the tides
Eliza Madrigal: I feel like, playasbeing is a trusted space to bring up almost anything
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods
Eliza Madrigal: and even to practice for civil discourse elsewhere
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes, that's an interesting point Eliza
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps the old political models are breaking down again
Risk and Dissent
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It can be hard to be the single voice of dissent
Mickorod Renard: yes Eliza, but we all tend to restain from some issues due to the risk of offending
Bleu (bleu.oleander): although I do question whether all these discussions belong on the wiki
Eliza Madrigal: playing as well mannered and civilized
Eliza Madrigal: true...
Wiki Updates or Guidelines for Political Posts Needed?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): or maybe our wiki needs to have its purpose updated a bit?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what is its purpose now?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I generally don't talk politics because I know its posted
Eliza Madrigal: maybe... we've never, that I know of, had deliberate policy or political issue talks
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Xiri :)
Eliza Madrigal: I like the idea of voting at the end for whether to post something
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi Xiri
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Xrana :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Xir
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello everyone!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): interesting idea Eliza
Qt Core: hi Xiri
Bleu (bleu.oleander): although once recorded its always somewhere?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Perhaps whoever edits the wiki can decide after checking with others
Eliza Madrigal: nods... these are the things the group would need to get closer to a sense about
Zen (zen.arado): you can have great discussions on the broader issues of political philosophy rather than current problems
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Is there anything said here that can damage us?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes Zen
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): we can speak in generalities, it's true.
Bleu (bleu.oleander): not so much damage as maybe don't want publicized perhaps?
Zen (zen.arado): (although TRump is going to fix the problem) :-)
Eliza Madrigal: anything can be taken out of context by someone at any time. hope no one here is running for office....but might there be...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): Trump is fair game LOL
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Trump is but Hilary isnt?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm trying to read every article I can find about why otherwise sane people are planning to vote for him
Bleu (bleu.oleander): it is recorded on everyone's hard drive though
Eliza Madrigal: I honestly want to understand
Bleu (bleu.oleander): me too!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): They are frustrated and feel powerless Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: because otherwise one begins to see the world in stark terms
Zen (zen.arado): I watched a program on British TV that was made by an American lady who interviewed lots of working class people in Bakersfield California
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I think there are other issues as well
Zen (zen.arado): it was very enlightening to hear their views
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hitler promised change too - look where it got him
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): (& the rest of the world)
Zen (zen.arado): there are a lot of discontented working-class people in America
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and middle class
Bleu (bleu.oleander): almost all authoritarian/dictators/power grabbers start by telling you how awful everything is and that they are the only one to fix it :)
Eliza Madrigal: I read an article that made the point that comparing Hitler at his peak to Trump, is missing the point
Eliza Madrigal: yup
Zen (zen.arado): and also in Britain and that's what caused the Brexit I think
Mickorod Renard: I think the problem may be in our short lifetimes..as each problem gets reinvented each generation
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods at Bleu
Complexity, Corruption, Emotion
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): this kind of things are not easy to understand..a lot of factors play a role in it.... (in Spain I would also understand how it is possible the party that has won elctions has won after too many cases of corruption ..exagerated cases of corruption... and the win)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): they
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods
Zen (zen.arado): nods
Eliza Madrigal: Comparing Hitler in the beginning, when he was making those promises ... that makes better sense (sorry, was part b of earlier sentence)
Eliza Madrigal: reads
Bleu (bleu.oleander): its not so much facts as emotions
Eliza Madrigal: maybe most feel politics is inherently corrupt
Eliza Madrigal: that's part of the skillset
Eliza Madrigal: Trump is blatant about it... "playing the game"
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): My point about Hitler is that people often seek a leader who can solve their problems and do their thinking and planning for them.
Bleu (bleu.oleander): well, the saying power and/or money corrupts may apply?
Eliza Madrigal: that's scary Aph
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): An informed public is the best defense against the Trumps of the world
Eliza Madrigal: "corrupts absolutely"
Zen (zen.arado): a lot of it basically comes down to inequality
Eliza Madrigal: we have a class system in America but pretend not to
Zen (zen.arado): an increasing gap between the rich and the poor
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): Pokemon go is scaring too :-)) how milions of people go after a silly virtual toy... :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Yes- it's bizarre
Eliza Madrigal: :)) love Pokemon Go hha... I don't play but this is the first time in forever the kids are wanting me to go all kinds of places with them
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It's hard to always think clearly and critically without prejudicces
Mickorod Renard: yeh, today someone walking past said there as a pokomon in the bush near me, i thought about hanging around to catch it
Zen (zen.arado): I don't think it is even possible Aphrodite
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Eliza Madrigal: agrees with Zen
Zen (zen.arado): we are all biased in one direction or the other
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what would you do with it once you had it Mick?
Eliza Madrigal: however, being conscious of that is what seems to separate the kinds of conversations?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Being aware of our biases is a start
Zen (zen.arado): I am basically a communitarian and socialist at heart
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): me too
Bleu (bleu.oleander): we can't know all our biases
Zen (zen.arado): but I know plenty of people who are libertarian, Republican, Conservative et cetera
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): no
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): for me 'pokemon go' is an exemple of how easy is to manipulate people
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): but we can try
Eliza Madrigal: can be ... have only our experience which so far is pretty neat
Zen (zen.arado): there's not much sense in a lot of the things we humans do
Eliza Madrigal: a glimpse into VR getting people out and about
Zen (zen.arado): in a couple of weeks there will be people running around a track with millions watching to see if one can go a fraction of a second faster than the others
Zen (zen.arado): tell me that isn't mad
Bleu (bleu.oleander): has some good points and some not so good ... as with almost everything
The Plight of the Innocent
Mickorod Renard: I remember being very agrieved when the syria crisis started up..and made the odd comment..then later it would have made me appear a radical..yet my thoughts were always for the plight of the innocent caught up in it all
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): people need to strive for something. Beating the other guys can be one way
Zen (zen.arado): but why not strive for something sensible that will help the rest of humanity?
Zen (zen.arado): Just the way I see it
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hard to do 24/7 tho Zen ... so we play
Eliza Madrigal: team mentality disturbs me quite a bit ... not the drawing and playing as teams, but taking it so seriously... it is just a slightly larger net of "all about me"
Zen (zen.arado): yes it is deadly serious
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Not everyone is so socially minded Zen :-(
Zen (zen.arado): I don't really see much play there
Bleu (bleu.oleander): humans are groupish
Bleu (bleu.oleander): us vs them
Bleu (bleu.oleander): deeply ingrained
Eliza Madrigal: nods.... in hard times we revert to tribalisms great, long article: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...doctrine/4725/
Zen (zen.arado): most of the sports are also a big industry
Zen (zen.arado): although I like watching soccer :-)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): there's that too ... big money
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): although there are a lot of individuals out there making a difference - both good and bad
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): perhaps those who have more self confidence
Eliza Madrigal: I like sports and such, but I think I'd hate if i couldn't set it to the side.... the difference with politics is that there is an 'obligation' there
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and dont need to always be supported by group-think
Eliza Madrigal: most reasonable people have too many doubts to bang on the podiums maybe?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes- an obligation to society?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): not everyone feels that obligation
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): @Eliza
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): agreed
Eliza Madrigal: true... I feel it. Even if I opted out for a protest vote, it would be with a sense of duty/obligation
Eliza Madrigal: (not that I'm doing that!)
Eliza Madrigal: but I like pretending to myself that I might, hah
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :-) that's being self aware Eliza :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen (zen.arado): I seem to have gotten interested in this American election although I don't live in America and can't vote or have any influence
Mickorod Renard: is this bordering on the 'pride' being negative
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): The media has had a field day with it
Eliza Madrigal: matters to the whole world @ Zen
Zen (zen.arado): yes I suppose it does and I'm feeling frightened
Bleu (bleu.oleander): potentially a lot of consequences
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...I agree Eliza...we are al connected
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Optimism?
Eliza Madrigal: of we here, is there general optimism?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): not really
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hm
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): whoever is elected will have a hard time ahead of them
Zen (zen.arado): I read an article by Michael Moore yesterday explaining why Trump is going to win
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): for many of the reasons Trump listed
Eliza Madrigal: I'm optimistic in some ways but the freedom with which so many are hating others for class or appearance reasons is pretty scary
Bleu (bleu.oleander): that's one person's guess tho Zen
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what did he say Zen?
Eliza Madrigal: great article!
Zen (zen.arado): yes but it was scary
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I read it too and shared Zen ..on FB
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): will check out FB
Eliza Madrigal: the only thing I didn't like was his using names like "billy bob, etc" for the demographic he was trying to talk about in one case
Bleu (bleu.oleander): there are other articles that say otherwise ... so which articles you choose to read affect how you think about the future
Zen (zen.arado): http://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): tx
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Agreed Blue
Eliza Madrigal: I read that before paying attention to new running mate ... feel more optimistic now
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): He seems like a good guy
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Is he strong?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes Bleu....it's important to read all kind of points of view to approach better to what happens
Eliza Madrigal: "No one reads the articles, but everybody has an opinion." Edward Snowden tweeted a few days ago
Sources and Chat Logs Questions
Bleu (bleu.oleander): sources of info are all over the map ... careful vetting of sources is important I think
Zen (zen.arado): I need to read some political philosophy again
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I watch Charlie Rose
Zen (zen.arado): I seem to have adopted Facebook mentality of just skimming through articles quickly without really understanding them and being critical enough
druth Vlodovic: huh, I am going to change topic here for a sec and point out that if we debate on a case by case basis if we should post a chatlog or not the discussion will go on longer than the chatlog, and people will want to record the debate, for instance, I thought that the fact I was AFK for 40 min would lose me the oppourtunity to say this but we are still talking politics
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I think lots of people do that Zen
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): Have you taken a decision about political discussions in Pab?
Zen (zen.arado): yes I think it is a problem Bleu
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :) druth
Eliza Madrigal: that's part of what we're doing I think... testing the ground?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes
druth Vlodovic: I think we are demonstrating the problem of policing it
Mickorod Renard: thing with facebook and the sorts is that we tend to have friends who are similar in outlooks and so we get agreable stuff posted up and we all think yeh we are rright
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): it's hard not to go over the same ground in discussions like this
Eliza Madrigal: we are very privileged to have this kind of space to talk about things in, any things in
Purpose of PaB
Bleu (bleu.oleander): so maybe we should get back to discussion of what PaB purpose is and what topics are ok/not ok?
Eliza Madrigal: sure
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): good idea
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I can list a few reasons why I stay. Maybe they might match others
Zen (zen.arado): I think the main problem is if you have people with entrenched views arguing against each other
Eliza Madrigal: listening to everyone
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I respect the people here
druth Vlodovic: maybe just list a few nonos and put them in the intro note as a general guide, we have seldom needed enforcement or systems
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I get a chance to be creative
Zen (zen.arado): most of us are pretty open-minded I think
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes
Eliza Madrigal: nods
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I learn a lot from everyone
Mickorod Renard: well...maybe
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I feel I am listened to
Mickorod Renard: I think I may be entrenched
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I like the architecture :-)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Eliza Madrigal: smiles
Zen (zen.arado): what they used to make us do in philosophy was to turn around and argue the opposite point
Eliza Madrigal: there is a psychological architecture too
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I agree with you Aph
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): the way dosucssions are constructed and recorded?
druth Vlodovic: hmm, so list yesyes' instead
Zen (zen.arado): so you could have someone say take each of Michael Moore's points and argue for and against them
Bleu (bleu.oleander): likes "psychological architecture"
Eliza Madrigal: that seems important Zen
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): good idea Zen
Eliza Madrigal: hard to do that outside of academic circles lately
Eliza Madrigal: discussions, at least in my world, seem to be shut down very quickly... low tolerance
Recording Aversion
Mickorod Renard: I know a few pabbers who dont join our sessions cos they dont want to be on open chat recordings
druth Vlodovic: "hold things lightly"
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): academic circles can be nasty too....
Eliza Madrigal: my mother actually called my daughter a moron for having different beliefs @@
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): really Mick?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): omg
Mickorod Renard: yes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yikes
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): maybe we can edit out their comments
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): they can ask to be edited and 'deleted' what they say
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): exactly
Zen (zen.arado): the trouble is that if you debate for years in philosophy forums you get used to people arguing points without having any emotional attachment
Eliza Madrigal: I'm so divided about recordings, because the fact that sessions are recorded is also a safety for people
druth Vlodovic: for instance it could be argued that Germany is in much better condition financially due to organizational changes brought about by Hitler's rulership
Zen (zen.arado): but that is not always the case outside of philosophy
Bleu (bleu.oleander): that puts a burden on people posting tho ... at least for me it would
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): not sure if it was Hitler or Angela
druth Vlodovic: I have read a few chatlogs with sections deleted, breaks it up a bit
Zen (zen.arado): in philosophy forums you aren't allowed to mention Hitler or you have lost the argument
Eliza Madrigal: what good debate, and good questions do, is wake us up to how little we honestly understand or can see in complex terms
Zen (zen.arado): Godwin's law
druth Vlodovic: Godwin's law
druth Vlodovic: snap
Zen (zen.arado): yep
Eliza Madrigal: that's why I'm reading about Stalin and revolutions lately
Bleu (bleu.oleander): knowing I'm being recorded limits conversation to an extent, but that's with all of SL ... all text is recorded on our computers
Mickorod Renard: its about raising questions rather than giving answers I was told
Eliza Madrigal: and talking to many cuban friends for whom the word 'socialism' is a big trigger
Zen (zen.arado): yes labels can have different connotations for different people
Bleu (bleu.oleander): words have many meanings and they evolve
Eliza Madrigal: yes Bleu... nothing is without risk
druth Vlodovic: "dropping what we have" seems to mainly refer to opinions and points of view, IMHO
Bleu (bleu.oleander): well we'd have to be silent then hehe
Zen (zen.arado): :-)
Eliza Madrigal: "the rest is silence"
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I find that hard to practice
Eliza Madrigal: it seems like a muscle to me... that we develop
Eliza Madrigal: dropping, picking up deliberately, noticing when not deliberate
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): perhaps dropping is the wrong word. Perhaps it is "recognizing"
Zen (zen.arado): dropping attachments to views
Eliza Madrigal: I like that.. conscious of consciousness? or lack?
druth Vlodovic: "setting aside"
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): if one can
Zen (zen.arado): so maybe Trump is right? ha ha
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): if not, at least being aware of them
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I think he's right about a lot of things
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking about being a white sheet that never keeps the writing thats written on it....but then would that mean I havnt learnt?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and what is happening in the US
Eliza Madrigal: Trump is 'for' Trump... seems he just wants his name on more stuff
Brexit
Zen (zen.arado): it's funny but I'm starting to come around to thinking that Britain might be better outside the common market
Mickorod Renard: me too
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): why?
Eliza Madrigal: really? how so?
Zen (zen.arado): yet I was firmly against it at the start
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what has changed?
Zen (zen.arado): just the way things are going and it doesn't seem to be the disaster that was forecast
Zen (zen.arado): again there were so many emotional arguments used during the referendum
Mickorod Renard: and its making business look globally
Eliza Madrigal: hm, if the big 'world powers' become more and more protectionist, isn't that a slippery slope?
druth Vlodovic: what is wrong with self-interest?
Zen (zen.arado): I'm not a great believer in slippery slope arguments
Qt Core: if Britain get it like they want it the brexit is surely nice, no EU rules but free entrance to the eu market
druth Vlodovic: oh god,shoot me, I just said something Ayn Rand might have said
Zen (zen.arado): anyway who really knows or understands complexities?
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes you did lol
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): lol druth
Eliza Madrigal: maybe nothing is wrong with self-interest AND other things
Bleu (bleu.oleander): balance
Eliza Madrigal: nuances and impetus to learn more
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It's a question of degree
Zen (zen.arado): That's what scares me about that article
druth Vlodovic: the chatlog?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): In a more communal society, self interest doesn't trump the rest
Zen (zen.arado): so many people just vote from emotions and that this contentedness
Zen (zen.arado): no the Michael Moore article
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): emotions or liking the face and voice of a celebrity politician
Zen (zen.arado): discontentedness
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes emotions are pretty smart
Bleu (bleu.oleander): what makes you trust that article so much?
Zen (zen.arado): and their poverty, unemployment
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): depends on what triggers the emotions perhaps
Mickorod Renard: good point eliza
Zen (zen.arado): maybe it's because I watch that TV programme
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Zen (zen.arado): about people living in Bakersfield
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think I've ever made a good decision when feeling pressured though, or pushed into a corner out of fear, or someone wanting me to hate something or someone
Bleu (bleu.oleander): confirmation bias is a big problem I think
Zen (zen.arado): they were voicing opinions Michael Moore is expressing
Feeling Fear
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): people see an Arab face and immediately think "terrorist" and feel fear
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen (zen.arado): it's the same in countries like France
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): public media plays into these fears
Zen (zen.arado): many of the working class people are very discontented and then right wing leaders like Marine Le Pen used that
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): they watch horrific images on a regular basis
Eliza Madrigal: mm, true
Bleu (bleu.oleander): too many things seen in binary terms that should be much more nuanced
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): nods
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): simplistic thinking
Zen (zen.arado): many of these young men who create these atrocities are unemployed, alienated I think
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes- angry and afraid
Eliza Madrigal: I walked the museum this morning, hadn't gotten to go to the opening... nurturing appreciation... we're benefited so much by seeing SL as a place to step into and out of one another's shoes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): some are just mentally ill too
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): which museum Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, true Bleu... buttons pushed
Eliza Madrigal: Adams, Aph
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): what's in it?
Mickorod Renard: one thing about making racism unpopular is that it forces it underground and one never can tell how much its still present
Zen (zen.arado): nods
Eliza Madrigal: and people being afraid to ask questions of one another
Eliza Madrigal: re museum:
"The first exhibits in the new museum include one old installation on the Islamic Mosque and a new exhibit on Ferdowsi's Shahnameh, the Persian Book of Kings. The art in the Islamic Mosque exhibit is sacred with almost no narrative. The paintings in the Shahnameh exhibit are narrative with almost no sacred. The contrast between these first two exhibits is partly by accident but is an exciting start as the re-opening exhibit. The relationships between sacred and secular culture may be this is something the new museum will continue to explore." (from the entry notecard)
Zen (zen.arado): I can see plenty of racism in people all around me
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): fantastic. I'd love to see it
druth Vlodovic: kids tend to believe what their parents say, though with a large capacity to induce what they feel as well, making people decry racism will have a positive long term effect,but only if it results in decrying all prejudice, and not raising the standard of new ones
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): The Ismaiili Museum in Toronto is like that
Eliza Madrigal: is empathy itself a 'privilege'?
Zen (zen.arado): we can only work with our own prejudices I guess
Mickorod Renard: I seem to have brought my kids up to not believe a word I say
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Mick
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): lol
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :-)
Eliza Madrigal: my daughter took my opinions but then went way left of me :) and I thought I was pretty left
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): If they are taught to think critically and with compassion they will be fine citizens Mick
Qt Core: need to go, pretty late and things to do before sleep
druth Vlodovic: we make the mistake of encouraging them to think
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye Qt!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): sleep well Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Okay Qt, quiet today but nice to see you
Mickorod Renard: bye Qt, nice t c ya
druth Vlodovic: bye QT
Zen (zen.arado): nite Qt
Qt Core: bye all
Eliza Madrigal: "don't judge people by their beliefs but by their actions." is one phrase
Implicit Bias Test
Bleu (bleu.oleander): https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html this is an interesting test for bias ... not that its definitive but might show some interesting results ... we met with the creators at Harvard ... very interesting work
druth Vlodovic: I wonder if we need a "red versus blue" style meets as a spinoff of pab
Eliza Madrigal: or a jury style discussion where we try to take on various points of a thing and believe in it a little while
Mickorod Renard: like sit opposite and argue?
Eliza Madrigal: then drop it and believe something else
Mickorod Renard: hey cool
Eliza Madrigal: would see what we think others think perhaps
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Wow- it's 3 - a good discussion - another reason to come to pAB meetings - perhaps we can have structured discussions in the future- perhaps with a talking stick
druth Vlodovic: maybe do the screaming debate thing buddhists do (someone gave me the name of that but I can't remember)
Eliza Madrigal: thought of you Zen, watching an Irish pub documentary where they said if everyone is interrupting then no one is :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Zen (zen.arado): :-)
Eliza Madrigal: good to have all kinds of forms
Eliza Madrigal: I don't remember the name either Druth...galugpa school maybe?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): so, will this conversation be posted ... hehe
Eliza Madrigal: raise hands if no
Eliza Madrigal giggles
druth Vlodovic: lol
Eliza Madrigal presides over rigged system
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :-)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ha!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I should go and water a garden
Eliza Madrigal: kidding...but is there anything not to post?
Mickorod Renard: yeh, I guess i had better sneak away..busy day tomorrow, Tennis and golf
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): that was fun
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for being here
druth Vlodovic: rampant violations of Godwin's law
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes fun discussion
Zen (zen.arado): interesting
Mickorod Renard: thankyou eliza
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): byee
druth Vlodovic: ttfn all
Eliza Madrigal: hugs all around, appreciate the active intelligence
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye all..I go too! :-)
Zen (zen.arado): bye everybody
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hugs to all
Mickorod Renard: byeeeee
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): bye all
Back to the beginning....
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :) good to see you
Qt Core: Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: going to send a notice and get settled....bb soon
Qt Core: ok
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Eliza, Qt :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu! :)
Qt Core: Hi Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: just getting settled....bb momentarily
Bleu (bleu.oleander): me too :)
Eliza Madrigal: Here :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): how r u?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, doing pretty well, well, until a cabinet door fell on my foot today
Eliza Madrigal: That's slowing things just a tad :))
Bleu (bleu.oleander): that's not good!
Eliza Madrigal: it isn't!
Eliza Madrigal: otherwise pretty happy
Eliza Madrigal: How are you doing?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): pretty good here ... only 104 today
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Bleu (bleu.oleander): a little humid tho ... 22%
Eliza Madrigal: it has been raining so much that we are slightly cooler... stagnant sauna basically
Eliza Madrigal: I have a friend who loves humidity...no idea how
Eliza Madrigal: makes hair frizzy and breathing feels weird
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes!
Eliza Madrigal: And you Qt? All well?
Qt Core: a few days ago, after a lot of storm we had some of the best summer days i've ever seen, temp at high 20 C, very dry and windy, cristal clear skies
Eliza Madrigal: goodness that sounds nice
Qt Core: now it is almost back to standard summer, low 30C humid and still air
Bleu (bleu.oleander): sighs, sounds lovely
Eliza Madrigal: weather envy, hah
Bleu (bleu.oleander): ha! ok
Eliza Madrigal: George taught a wolf to howl the other day
Bleu (bleu.oleander): wow fun!
Rolly Rodas: is online.
Eliza Madrigal: was so fun. George howls to the accordian....
Bleu (bleu.oleander): pretty funny!
Eliza Madrigal: and the wolf's Companion had been trying to get her to howl but no luch
Eliza Madrigal: luck*
Bleu (bleu.oleander): sounds like a youtube video is coming?
Eliza Madrigal: I did post a video on FB, but it isn't great. I think i should start channel though....because it was ridiculously hard to upload
Eliza Madrigal: *a channel
Bleu (bleu.oleander): a George channel
Eliza Madrigal: (ack, fingers don't want to play on a PC today, they are screaming for the mac)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hey Aph
Qt Core: Hi Aph
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi everyone
Eliza Madrigal: How is your neck of the woods?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): pretty good thanks.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Yesterday I sang a Mozart aria!
Ewan Bonham: is offline.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): amazing what one can do here
Eliza Madrigal: whoa
Bleu (bleu.oleander): oooh nice!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): oh in SL?
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): yes
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): In Sorrentina- my 18th c Italian sim
Bleu (bleu.oleander): cool
Eliza Madrigal: part of an event?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I don't think anyone would want to listen to me singing an aria lol
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): a Mozart Concert in Villa Vesuviana
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I had to rehearse
Eliza Madrigal: nice
Zen (zen.arado): is online.
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): in the shower was best
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :D
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Eliza Madrigal: could bring the shower on stage, in SL
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :-)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): showers do improve the quality!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hiya Zen :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): It was cool to use gestures of opera singing
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi all
Qt Core: hi Zen
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Hi Zen :-)
Eliza Madrigal: gestures in SL are so fluid now
Eliza Madrigal: I love Bruce's bow
Eliza Madrigal: and Zen's dancing behind the DJ booth
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): motion capture now
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): I even had gestures for my mouth
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, is that why!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): lol I dont have audio but I can imagine it!
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe.....
Eliza Madrigal: George taught the wolf to howl
Eliza Madrigal: but since I played that just now he is going a little wild, brb
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): lol
Bleu (bleu.oleander): fun!!
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): That was a fun party last week
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe this is it for today
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes Aph!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi druth
Zen (zen.arado): maybe it is a bad time for some
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): hey ddruthie
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Qt Core: hi druth
Zen (zen.arado): Hi druth
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): Druth has been visiting me for the past 2 weeks and now she's home again. :-(
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): 1000 miles away
druth Vlodovic: I wasn't booted out so the visit was the right length
Anya Heberle: is offline.
Mickorod Renard: is online.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): :-)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Eliza Madrigal: nice to miss someone have to their being around for 2 whole weeks
druth Vlodovic: what is a bad time zen?
druth Vlodovic: :)
Eliza Madrigal: the session time
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): this time for the Guardian meeting
Zen (zen.arado): well it is late for Wol I was thinking
Eliza Madrigal: nods....
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): 10PM
Eliza Madrigal: PaB is part of wind down for Wol sometimes
Zen (zen.arado): 11pm
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): ah
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Mick
Eliza Madrigal: I think this is the latest convenient though
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): 11pm
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Mick!
Zen (zen.arado): hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi, soz am late
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Files 4
| File | Size | Date | Attached by | |||
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 | eliza and cat_002.jpg No description | 779.31 kB | 22:54, 24 Jul 2016 | eliza | Actions | |
| eliza and cat_006.jpg No description | 642.83 kB | 22:54, 24 Jul 2016 | eliza | Actions | |
| girls_002.jpg No description | 1052.66 kB | 22:54, 24 Jul 2016 | eliza | Actions | |
 | party!_008.jpg No description | 1013.86 kB | 22:54, 24 Jul 2016 | eliza | Actions | |
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For PaB discussions, the intention we bring things up with does seem important. I don't see anything wrong with Tuesday's discussion at all. At all. I thought the session was important and wanted to respond by reading and commenting together.
Thank you Adams. edited 00:29, 25 Jul 2016