2013.04.21 13:00 - Acceptance & necessary fictions

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Bleu Oleander: hey Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bleu, Bruce; now we have the As and the Bs
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Aph and Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: hiya Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Is it me or is it really really laggy?
Bleu Oleander: yes really laggy
Bruce Mowbray: no lagging for moi.
Bleu Oleander: hmm
Bruce Mowbray: but i had to turn down my speakers.
Aphrodite Macbain: wonder why
Bruce Mowbray: (a local problem...)
Aphrodite Macbain: it must be our computers
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: or your servers.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes maybe
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: I don’t really understand why
Bruce Mowbray: I used to have a laggy keyboard.
Aphrodite Macbain: we missed u this morning Bruce (at the Guardian’s meeting)
Bruce Mowbray: Then I switched to an Apple keyboard - used with a PC system.. and it's GREAT!
Aphrodite Macbain: I have a keyboard with many of the letters invisible
Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
Qt Core: hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I am sorry but the guardians meeting happens at exactly the same time as RL Quaker Meeting.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, QT!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Qt. benvenuto
Bleu Oleander: was just playing with some Pavilion decor :)
Bleu Oleander: want to see?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes please
Bruce Mowbray: curtains?
Aphrodite Macbain: for the meeting on Monday 1pm
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I read about it in the Guardians Log.
Aphrodite Macbain: gauzy
Aphrodite Macbain: are they supposed to circle outside the cushions
Bruce Mowbray: That will be hosted (hostessed?) by Eliza, right?
Aphrodite Macbain: right
Bruce Mowbray: cool.
Aphrodite Macbain: we can’t come Bruce b/c of OF
Aphrodite Macbain: ah better!
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Bruce Mowbray: Will definitely try to be there... except that it's going to conflict with our Original Face mtg. darn!
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Bruce Mowbray: Love all the little houses.
Aphrodite Macbain: I know. I argued for another time but it was the only time Eliza can do it, it seems.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I read that, Aph....
Bruce Mowbray: but we're still trying to work out a good time for OF, so no worries.

Aphrodite Macbain: Is this supposed to be Florence?
Bruce Mowbray looks around enthusiastically.
Bleu Oleander: hey Wol
Qt Core: hi Wol
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Wol. Welcome to our bubble
Bleu Oleander: just playing with some pavilion decor :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Wol!
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: hello all
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zon!
Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
Wol Euler: where is this?
Aphrodite Macbain: hiya Zon
Zon Kwan: hey all
Bleu Oleander: Florence
Aphrodite Macbain: looks like Florence
Aphrodite Macbain: with the dome
Bleu Oleander: from your set Aph
Bruce Mowbray: So cool!
Aphrodite Macbain: ah - thought it looked familiar :-)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: brings back happy memories
Wol Euler: actually no, Florence’s duomo doesn't look like this, and it isn't on a hill
Wol Euler: I think this is Sienna
Aphrodite Macbain: k
Bleu Oleander: ok somewhere in Italy
Bleu Oleander: lol
Wol Euler: Italy definitely :)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yeah.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think it's an "Italian town"
Bleu Oleander: Siena?
Wol Euler: I'm trying to remember where that striped bell tower is located, without resorting to looking it up
Aphrodite Macbain: there are a few striped bell towers in Italy
Bruce Mowbray: Ravenna? Rapello?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Ewan
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Ewan!
Ewan Bonham: Hi folks!
Zon Kwan: hi ewan
Bleu Oleander: we were talking about playing with different pavilion decor for some session this morning
Bruce Mowbray: no curtains?
Aphrodite Macbain: This is the last time I will be hosting this Sunday session
Aphrodite Macbain: and will move to Monday at 1 pm
Bleu Oleander: haven't gotten to the curtains yet lol
Bruce Mowbray: can't remember which one you're moving to, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: see above :-)
Bruce Mowbray: kk. Monday at 1 p.m.
Wol Euler has lost track of who is hosting what
Bleu Oleander: board has been updated
Aphrodite Macbain: Bleu - could you move me on the notice board please?
Wol Euler: board is hidden :)
Aphrodite Macbain: ah great
Wol Euler: ah :)
Bruce Mowbray: I thought the scene that Bleu is showing us now was going to be for Monday at 1 p.m. -- and that Eliza was hosting that one.
Aphrodite Macbain: no flies on Bleu
Bleu Oleander: board right?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, you are right Bruce-  this is a sneak preview
Aphrodite Macbain: I also have to leave at 1:30 today

Aphrodite Macbain: The suggested theme for this week is deep acceptance
Aphrodite Macbain: and bleu, you had a great quote that sums it up I think
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I was looking into Jeff Foster's book.
Ewan Bonham: That is quite a challenge..
Aphrodite Macbain: drop
Wol Euler wonders what it means.
Bleu Oleander: ah yes one sec
Aphrodite Macbain: drip
Aphrodite Macbain: 90 sec
Bleu Oleander: I’m using the word in a new way that points to this deepest acceptance of life, an acceptance, an allowing, that has already been done. And so, when I suggest that you ‘accept’ or ‘allow’ what is – it’s a shorthand way of directing your attention to the fact that in this moment, these thoughts, sensations, feelings, sights, sounds and smells, are already allowed in, because they already appearing!
Bleu Oleander: http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/re...st-acceptance/
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bleu
Bleu Oleander: yw :)
Aphrodite Macbain: so it is about accepting what IS?
Ewan Bonham: And we are an example of acceptance?
Bruce Mowbray: From Jeff Foster's web page:
Bruce Mowbray: Here’s some very good news: Right Now, you don’t need all the answers. You don’t need to ‘figure out’ the rest of your life. There is no rush. Life itself is never in a hurry. Not-knowing is a dear friend. Can we simply relax into the Mystery?
Ewan Bonham: That is... self acceptance?
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess my question would be when should we NOT accept what is and try and make change?
Bleu Oleander: nice question
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I have that same question, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: I can’t sit back and accept that someone is beating their dog
Bruce Mowbray: but, I wanted to give full "acceptance" to the idea first -- and then look into the questions.
Ewan Bonham: that is why i asked specifically about self-acceptance..
Bleu Oleander: who's accepting?
Zon Kwan: perhaps that includes accepting ones own action too
Aphrodite Macbain: you talk about allowing Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: "Total acceptance" feels to me like "no resistance to whatever is."
Bleu Oleander: but whatever is ... is not always good?
Zon Kwan: no resistance to one’s reaction either?
Wol Euler: doctors and dentists would go out of business if we totally accepted our health
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe it is about accepting what is inevitable and knowing the difference
Bruce Mowbray: Exactly! No resistance to our own reactiveness...
Bruce Mowbray: seeing that for what it is.
Ewan Bonham: So would acceptance be- awareness of what is happening?
Bleu Oleander: sounds like the 12 step motto
Aphrodite Macbain: I would think that would be the first step Ewan
Bruce Mowbray: as much awareness as we are capable of -- which will always fall short, I feel.
Zon Kwan: aware and doing what is proper for in the moment
Aphrodite Macbain: I can’t really accept that I am growing older and cant do certain things any more; but I should….
Bleu Oleander: I shall strive for the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the determination to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
Bruce Mowbray: How about a slogan like this: "Love it the way it is." (?)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- perfect Bleu
Zon Kwan: and make it even better
Bleu Oleander: so need a bit of wisdom
Ewan Bonham: perhaps... see it the way it is..
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh! So -- and ethic of "improvement" and "progress"?
Bruce Mowbray: an*
Ewan Bonham: And accept that we may wish to see it differently...
Zon Kwan: life is movement and we are part of it
Aphrodite Macbain: and if it goes against our values?
Zon Kwan: accept facts
Bleu Oleander: smack it back ... oops, change it gently he he
Bruce Mowbray: Well, perhaps there are different levels of acceptance... I can accept someone as a person without accepting what they do in every circumstance.
Bruce Mowbray: You know, Quakers have to deal with this all the time -- particularly around issues of non-violence.
Wol Euler listens.
Bruce Mowbray: Some Quakers are violently opposed to violence.
Bruce Mowbray: others are "accepting" of it -- but take non-violent means to deal with it.
Bruce Mowbray: i would call that a form of "acceptance" without agreement.
Bleu Oleander: so the just war concept?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that, and more.
Aphrodite Macbain: what does that mean "accepting of it"?
Zon Kwan: accepting facts does not mean one should not try to change the situation according to one’s values
Bruce Mowbray: Accepting that this is the present reality.
Aphrodite Macbain: as opposed to denying that it exists?
Bruce Mowbray: Not necessarily agreeing that it is the best possible reality.
Ewan Bonham: Seems we are talking about two separate definitions of acceptance..
Aphrodite Macbain: yes one is more existential than the other
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps many levels and definitions of acceptance.
Bleu Oleander: please excuse me ... rl calls ... take care all
Wol Euler: bye bleu, take care
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Bleu.
Wol Euler: thanks for doing the board
Zon Kwan: bye bleu
Qt Core: bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: bye bye
Ewan Bonham: Bye Bleu..
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for your village in Italy.
Aphrodite Macbain: waves to Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: what are the two definitions Ewan?
Bruce Mowbray: Somehow, for me, the notion of "acceptance" implies not being compelled to DO something.
Ewan Bonham: The first meaning i hear... is if you allow or let happen something that has occurred..
Zon Kwan: hm
Bruce Mowbray: listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: let happen what occurred?
Ewan Bonham: The second for me is similar to forgiveness and facing what I interpret ..
Ewan Bonham: Can i give examples?
Bruce Mowbray: Please do.
Wol Euler: please
Ewan Bonham: In the first type...
Aphrodite Macbain: I have a feeling it is about facing reality and acknowledging it
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Ewan Bonham: I would see someone in poverty on the street... and accept that this is their path in life...
Ewan Bonham: In the second... i would react to that poor person ... and allow myself to feel that reaction..
Aphrodite Macbain: whispers. I must go now. I have to accept that I can't both stay and leave
Wol Euler: bye aph, take care
Qt Core: Bye Aph
Zon Kwan: i see it as accepting the present moment as it is, and then playing one’s own part based on it, this does not mean necessarily passivity
Zen Arado: Hi all
Wol Euler: hello zen
Zon Kwan: hi zen
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Zen.
Bruce Mowbray: We've been chatting about "acceptance."
Wol Euler: to me it seems quite clear that total acceptance doesn't actually mean accepting everything.
Wol Euler: If the house were on fire, I would run out.
Wol Euler: If my teeth hurt, I would go to the dentist.
Wol Euler: so to me the interesting question is where to draw that line.
Zon Kwan: acceptance is not same as non-action
Wol Euler: my point :)
Ewan Bonham: Nod..
Ewan Bonham: I think acceptance for me is always self-acceptance..
Wol Euler nods.
Ewan Bonham: Can i accept the reaction and feelings that I have..
Wol Euler: I think that is what Foster and Co are actually talking about
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.lifewithoutacentre.com/re...estacceptance/

Bruce Mowbray: What if one paraphrased this by saying, "Love as much as you can from wherever you are."
Bruce Mowbray: and added to that "without resistance."
Zon Kwan: well
Zon Kwan: one needs to be sensible also
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray: Boundaries?
Zon Kwan: nods..according to situation
Zen Arado: 'It’s not about you, a separate person, being relaxed or peaceful, or trying to rest; it’s about a deeper sense of relaxation that comes with knowing that every thought, every sensation, every feeling, including all the painful ones, are already accepted in the space that you are.' Foster, Jeff
Zen Arado: find that difficult
Bruce Mowbray: Well, "space" seems to accept almost everything -- and "time" does also...
Bruce Mowbray: but not so for the particulars in those spaces and times.
Bruce Mowbray: I have this crazy notion that i am a "particular person..." Perhaps that is my primary problem.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye Zon!
Zon Kwan: waves
Zen Arado: bye Zon
Zen Arado: It's like things happen and then we think about it and of it's not what we want we say "it shouldn't be like that' or “that's a problem”
Qt Core: back to the classic know yourself, your limit and what you can or can't do... and what you should or should not do ?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Zen. That's what I mean by 'resistance."
Zen Arado: But if you create a separate self out of the flow of things you will always be judging them?
Bruce Mowbray: You will always contrast your own being with the "other" beings, yes.
Bruce Mowbray: whether judgmentally or not, i don't know.
Zen Arado: Or compare this moment with your image of how it should be
Bruce Mowbray: The sense of "self" seems to be a very temporary but somewhat necessary adaptation.
Bruce Mowbray: Not necessarily a reality, of course, but a necessary fiction, perhaps.
Zen Arado: Why do people always affirm the necessity of a self?
Bruce Mowbray: Try getting into some high-priced event without buying a ticket for your "self." --- They won't let you in.
Zen Arado: Why not try saying we don't really need it?
Ewan Bonham: Hmmm... good question... you mean as a separate entity?
Bruce Mowbray: Try getting on a plane without a ticket for this entity called "self."
Ewan Bonham: Rather than part of a whole?
Bruce Mowbray: It is a necessary fiction.
Zen Arado: But that is different Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: That's all I'm saying.
Bruce Mowbray: listens... and drops.
Zen Arado: That is just an identity tag so that you can distinguish who has paid for ticket and who hasn't
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree totally.
Bruce Mowbray: That's why I call it a "necessary fiction."
Bruce Mowbray: It is just a "tag."
Bruce Mowbray: But one that society seems to require of us.
Bruce Mowbray: "Who is the entity who has just been born?" Let's give him a tag.
Bruce Mowbray: Who is the entity who had just died? Let's see what his tag is.
Zen Arado: well that is necessary and useful of course if that is what you mean by self
Bruce Mowbray: My typist is very fortunate to be able to live most of his life apart from such tagging...
Bruce Mowbray: It is a bit like having to wear clothes in public.
Bruce Mowbray: We also seem to have to wear "identities" in public.
Bruce Mowbray: And those are also called "selves" -- perhaps..
Bruce Mowbray: and are different things in different settings.
Zen Arado: It's more the separation from everything
Zen Arado: Than the creation of a self
Zen Arado: I think
Zen Arado: Especially separating ourselves from any pain or suffering
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps one needs to have a sense of "self" before one can drop that . . and be liberated from it?
Zen Arado: Making things into "problems"
Qt Core: I need to go, bye all
Bruce Mowbray: listens.
Zen Arado: bye Qt
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Qt!
Wol Euler: bye qt, take care
Zen Arado: 'We have been conditioned to see parts of our experience as imperfections, contaminations, aberrations, impurities, expressions of incompleteness. In other words, we have been taught, trained, even brainwashed, to see some parts of our experience as threats to life itself. We believe that parts of our experience are somehow against life— like they don’t deserve a place in us. Anger, fear, sadness, discomfort, pain— they should not be allowed in. I reject them because I believe that they don’t belong in me. I don’t see them as being part of the wholeness of life. I believe that they are dangerous to my well-being. And so I spend my life running away from them. Foster, Jeff
Zen Arado: sorry for all the quotes
Zen Arado: But I am trying to get my head around this too
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray: The quotes are helpful, Zen. Thanks for sending them along.
Zen Arado: This is so unlike our usual way of thinking
Zen Arado: And as you say it adds up to resistance to what is happening
Bruce Mowbray: These "conditionings" that Foster speaks of -- seem to me like Byron Katie's "beliefs."
Zen Arado: Or we feel incomplete and keep searching for something
Zen Arado: Yes it's all the same thing, just phrased differently
Bruce Mowbray: Yes.
Zen Arado: I keep coming across this same teaching in Pema Chodron as well
Bruce Mowbray: Dharma Gates are infinite. I vow to enter them all.
Zen Arado: 'I will be complete … when I finally fit in with my peer group, with my work colleagues, with society. When people finally understand me and approve of what I do. When everybody around me changes. when I’ve created a masterpiece that everybody adores. When my body is perfect. When I’ve finally manifested my destiny. When I’ve found my soul mate. When I’m fully awakened. When I win the gold medal. When I have a child. Foster, Jeff
Zen Arado: I lived most of my life like that
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, there's an Eagle Scout!
Ewan Bonham: Well, I must take my leave...thank you all.. interesting ..
Zen Arado: Always looking to something better in the future
Bruce Mowbray: Rah rah!
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: bye Ewan
Bruce Mowbray: I must also leave. But thank you each and all for being here today.
Wol Euler: bye ewan, take care; bye bruce, enjoy the day
Zen Arado: bye Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Enjoy the perfection of it all!
Zen Arado: are we Bertiless again?
Wol Euler: it looks like Berti has forgotten us again
Wol Euler: I spoke to him yesterday and reminded him, but ...
Wol Euler shrugs
Bruce Mowbray: oppps. I forgot about Bertram.
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: No meditation today, huh?
Wol Euler: he’s usually on by now, if he hasn't forgotten
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: will wait a few more minutes.
Zen Arado: Agatha is probably there
Zen Arado: She is online
Zen Arado: and Mira
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps we could go over to Berti's and check it out.
Zen Arado: I could ding the bell anyway?
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: goodbye, dear autologger