The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar. The comments are by Darren Islar.

Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".

--BELL--

Darren Islar: 's current display-name is "leaping Panther".
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Darren.
Darren Islar: hey Bruce .... sorry I'm late, I couldn't get in
Bruce Mowbray: np!
Bruce Mowbray: I was just reading the BBC news.
Darren Islar: ah ... anything interesting?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, lots of stuff, actually.
Darren Islar: as ....
Bruce Mowbray: I find that news about the US is better from he BBC than from USA sources.
Bruce Mowbray: I didn't realize until just now that the United States had made a climate control pledge.... during Obama's visit in China.
Bruce Mowbray: Why doesn't stuff like that get reported in the United States?
Bruce Mowbray: Also, of course whoops I just realized I'm invoice just a moment I'm sorry...
Darren Islar: sorry I have connection problems
Darren Islar: that's okay :)
Bruce Mowbray: I didn't realize I was broadcasting invoice.

new law in Indiana is discriminating

Bruce Mowbray: anyway, I'm especially interested in the news out of Indiana....
Darren Islar: I did 't had my headphones on so ...
Bruce Mowbray: I watched the governor's press conference this morning.... live....
Darren Islar: what happened there?
Bruce Mowbray: well he did the same blurred, wishy-washy, political stuff that one would expect...
Bruce Mowbray: claiming that he had no idea this new law would lead to discrimination...
Darren Islar: who did, sorry I missed a bit
Bruce Mowbray: claiming also that the law had been misrepresented by the national media.
Darren Islar: ah, from what you posted
Bruce Mowbray: blaming the press is always a quick alibi.
Bruce Mowbray: /e listens.
Darren Islar: grins ... not talking
Bruce Mowbray: the governor of Indiana. Mike Pence.
Darren Islar: my English isn't that good that I could decipher this law very well
Bruce Mowbray: just a second... I'll find a BBC link for you
Darren Islar: ok
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32136892

The link contains a description of how the law can be discriminating for for instance homosexuals. Businessess are allowed to bring forward their religion with a minor chance they will be called back upon it. Which means the local baker can deny a weddingscake with two brooms on it or something. Those cases already occured. And not only businesses, but individuals as well

Darren Islar: yeah, I see what you mean
Bruce Mowbray: The law gives businesses in Indiana the "right" to refuse business to anyone - if that's a violation of the business' "religious belief."
Bruce Mowbray: a bunch of HOOOOEY!
Bruce Mowbray: So, as I said in my post on our OF page,
Darren Islar: yes, it's what I understand now
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that the only way to keep this battle from being fought in many other states
Darren Islar: what means the 'fix'?
Bruce Mowbray: will be to have a federal law that includes gays and lesbians as a protected class ( exactly the same as races, ethnic groups, and religions are now).
Bruce Mowbray: I have no idea what Indiana's legislature's idea of a " fix" would be, though.
Bruce Mowbray: "fix" means to change the wording of the law so that it cannot be interpreted as discriminatory.
Darren Islar: No, I guess it will become clear in time
Bruce Mowbray: except it is obviously discriminatory!
Bruce Mowbray: the whole purpose of the law is to give individuals and businesses the right to discriminate on the basis of belief...
Darren Islar: but now those groups are protected, but discrimination can still happen, a law should not be about a group

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: so, for example, if a pharmacist is Catholic and is opposed to birth control, then he/she could refuse to sell contraceptive devices.
Darren Islar: hey QT
Bruce Mowbray: hey, QT.
Qt Core: Hi leaping, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: however, it has already happened that bakeries are refusing to make cakes for same-sex weddings, etc.
Darren Islar: we are talking about a new law in Indiana who can be used to discriminate groups
Qt Core: yes, i've heard about it
Bruce Mowbray: yes, the state of Indiana is adjacent to the state I live in..
Bruce Mowbray: just to the west of us.
Bruce Mowbray: I have several friends in Indiana, actually.
Darren Islar: is your state conservative?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Ohio is even more conservative than Indiana is.
Bruce Mowbray: we have one of the toughest anti-same-sex marriage laws in the country.
Qt Core: i wonder about its detail, does it just say that you can refuse tos erve clients ?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, we already have that.
Bruce Mowbray: the only place where you cannot refuse to serve gay people is in certain cities that have ordinances,
Darren Islar: no it says that the government will protect religion
Bruce Mowbray: but those ordinances only apply within the city limit...
Darren Islar: hmmm
Qt Core: so atheist having no religion could refuse every one or no one ? ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: so, literally, a person in nearby towns to where I live could be fired from their job or kicked out of their housing merely because they happen to be gay,
Bruce Mowbray: and that would be legal.
Darren Islar: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: yes I suppose so, QT.
Darren Islar: ok, so it's already spreading
Bruce Mowbray: well it's already been here.... for decades.
Darren Islar: Indiana is not the first apparently
Bruce Mowbray: but there's going to be a battleground in every state, now, in which a so-called defense of religion act is put into law by state legislatures.
Bruce Mowbray: know there are at present twenty different states that have such laws.
Qt Core: i don't know the details bu i think you can refuse to sarve whoever you want around here
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Darren Islar: well, not in every state I suppose, but it's certainly alarming
Bruce Mowbray: in the United States, you are not permitted by federal law to discriminate against persons for their race, national origin, or religion.
Qt Core: then you'll miss the money, it basically is the opposite of boycotting a brand
Darren Islar: Right wing is on the move in Europe as well, though they don't seem to grow anymore
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Darren, that's what's happening over here too.
Darren Islar: then how can it be possible that such a law can pass?
Bruce Mowbray: the Republicans take over state legislatures -- by being voted into office by the people,
Bruce Mowbray: they then in act conservative legislation...
Bruce Mowbray: and that's how it happens.
Darren Islar: the problem is, that you will miss the money but probably gain the support of big parts of the US
Darren Islar: I see Bruce, and to start a law-suit will be expensive I suppose
Bruce Mowbray: every potential Republican candidate for president in the 2016 election has already endorsed Indiana's new law.
Bruce Mowbray: this is very scary!
Darren Islar: it is
Qt Core: just this morning i was talking about Indiana law with a colleague, wondering about entering one of such shop arm in arm with my brother... should i take out my id to shop there ?
Bruce Mowbray: it is also very divisive.
Bruce Mowbray: your ID will do you no good, QT.
Darren Islar: For decades the US doesn't allow gay-people to enter
Qt Core: just the idea of id card will scare them even more ;-)

Moving on to aids

Darren Islar: I remember the first summit on HIV was planned in the States but moved to Holland since no gay's were allowed to enter the States
Bruce Mowbray: the ban on allowing persons with AIDS to enter the country was lifted a good while ago. it is no longer in effect.
Darren Islar: ah yes, I remember now
Bruce Mowbray: yes, that's right, Darren.
Qt Core: (and how they thought to id gays on arrival ?
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know anything about that, actually, QT....
Darren Islar: when you're honest you're not allowed in
Bruce Mowbray: I know there was a restriction on persons with AIDS, but I really don't know how they would identify such a person.
Darren Islar: maybe that changed with the AIDS-thing, I don't know, but I know quite a few friends who needed to fill in a question about it and lied ... but that is over 20 years ago
Qt Core: wrong as it is that is quite a certifiable medical condition that you have or not based on a medical test, but being gays...
Bruce Mowbray: you know, President Reagan was in office for six years before he ever mentioned the word AIDS publicly.
Bruce Mowbray: and that whole time the AIDS crisis was mounting and killing thousands.
Darren Islar: sounds like him
Darren Islar: it
Bruce Mowbray: that is what the movie " The Normal Heart" was about....
Darren Islar: it's all a long time ago, but yes I seem to remember now
Darren Islar: Same happened in
Darren Islar: South-Africa
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I remember that.

--BELL--

Darren Islar: but there it was even a bigger problem, since it's in their culture that men have sex with many women
Bruce Mowbray: to me, at least, the really amazing thing is how many people came out in support of the gay population in America . . . I mean movie stars, politicians, and more.
Bruce Mowbray: in South Africa AIDS is a heterosexual disease, mostly. in America, it is a gay disease, mostly.
Darren Islar: well, I guess that's the good thing about it, when one force grows, the opposite does as well

rolemodels when it comes to gay-upbringing

Qt Core: but then there is the opposite error, like some kindergarten skipping dad-day and mum-day as some kids lack one or both of them or have two of one and none of the other
Bruce Mowbray: actually though, currently,, the most frequent occurrence of AIDS is in heterosexual teenagers ( in America, I mean.)
Bruce Mowbray: this is very disturbing, because kids seem to be quite promiscuous.... and the disease will only spread unless there is considerable change of behavior.
Darren Islar: hmmm, I don't think it's such a problem to have gay-parents, or heterosexuals who don't have a partner, but we are so alienated from each other, that I think kids miss other adult-examples
Darren Islar: that's disturbing yes
Bruce Mowbray: I'm not quite sure what you're saying, Darren.
Bruce Mowbray: could you state that again, perhaps in another way?
Bruce Mowbray: what is it that kids miss?
DanMayor Resident: 's current display-name is "DanMayor".
Qt Core: responsible adult figures i think
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh, no question about it!
Darren Islar: I responded to QT, there are now a lot of broken families and husband-husband and wife-wife relationships, kids lacking sometimes the role-model of the opposite sex
Bruce Mowbray agrees.
Darren Islar: yes, right QT
Darren Islar: and those relationships aren't so much of a problem, but since the industrialization we alienated too much from each other
Qt Core: (i wasn't thinking the "of the opposite sex" but it could be that too
Bruce Mowbray: if I'm not mistaken, the demographics in America right now indicate that more children are being raised in single-parent homes then are being raised in homes with two parents... I might be wrong about that.
Darren Islar: ah ... my interpretation I guess :)
Darren Islar: I wouldn't be surprised Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think there's any sound data that would indicate there is a significant difference between parents being of the same sex or of opposite sexes.
Bruce Mowbray: as long as they are good parents....
Darren Islar: that's the most important thing yes
Bruce Mowbray: for sure.
Darren Islar: wb QT
Qt Core: ty
Bruce Mowbray: there are many cases in the public view, now, of same-sex parents adopting children...
Bruce Mowbray: Neil Patrick Harris, Ricky Martin, and many more....
Qt Core: (as i was saying about the one parent household)... so to be sure the parent has no time for the kid in question
Bruce Mowbray: the weatherman for one of our local TV stations ( Columbus, Ohio) is married to another man, and they both have children.
Bruce Mowbray: and both children are bi-racial.
Darren Islar: yes, and I'm not apposed to it, how can I be :), but I actually think in general kids are lacking good role-models, and maybe the ones making a difficult choice (since a child doesn't fall out of heaven), might even make better parents
Darren Islar: and I do think that kids need male and female models around, not necessarily being the parents
Bruce Mowbray: frankly, I would have preferred to have to same-sex parents than the actual parents that I did have --- who detested each other for the last thirty years of their lives.
Bruce Mowbray: two*
Darren Islar: yeah, I hear you Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: they only stayed together "for the kids" but it was the kids who suffered the most... so much violence. so much dystopia.
Bruce Mowbray: who needs all that drama?
Darren Islar: nobody
Bruce Mowbray: for sure!
Bruce Mowbray: after my father died ( when I was nineteen) my father did not mention his name for the next thirty years/
Bruce Mowbray: my sister was only six years old when her father died,
Bruce Mowbray: and when I told my mother that I was sorry she would not have a father,
Bruce Mowbray: my mother responded with, " Better an image of a good father than the real thing."
Bruce Mowbray: does that sound like love to you?
Darren Islar: no
Darren Islar: clearly not
Bruce Mowbray: me neither!
Darren Islar: hey Riddle
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Riddle.

the PaB voting on land

Bruce Mowbray: have you noticed how the vote is going?
Bruce Mowbray: I mean on PaB lands?
Darren Islar: 3b?
Bruce Mowbray: yes all the way!
Bruce Mowbray: I think it's unanimous, actually.
Darren Islar: I already expected it, though I agree with Bleu
Darren Islar: hey Riddle
Riddle Sideways: hi All
Qt Core: Hi Riddle
Darren Islar: I already greeted you before you were here :)
Riddle Sideways: sorry so late

--BELL--

Riddle Sideways: :)
Darren Islar: np
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Darren Islar: we have been talking a bit about the new Indiana law on religion which is potentially discriminating for other groups, we now moved on to the PaB-voting
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Riddle Sideways: just voted.
Bruce Mowbray: if riddle is from the United States, he knows that this Indiana law is making headlines on the front page of every newspaper and also in the national media.
Riddle Sideways: think I should a few more times?
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Qt Core: woondering how much "damage" could do if other groups would discriminate in their shops ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: I think Eliza is looking out for that.
Darren Islar: no once is enough Riddle, it's anonymous anyways :)
Darren Islar: the new type of ghetto's
Riddle Sideways: newspaper reading is always from the back toward the front

back to Indiana

Bruce Mowbray: one of the reasons that people are so excited about this is that for many many decades America had a racial problem. individual businesses could refuse to serve black people... and that memory is quite fresh. except the new " blacks" are gay, now. many of us really do not want to go back to those days!
Qt Core: never got the people reading the newspaper backward :-)
Darren Islar: you haven't reached the front yet Riddle? :)
Bruce Mowbray: when I started college in 1960, it was in Texas, and absolutely nothing - including my college - was integrated.
Darren Islar: but yeah Bruce, I see what you mean
Bruce Mowbray: I had been raised in the northern part of the country, so this was entirely new to me, and I remember being tremendously offended by it.
Riddle Sideways: not yet
Bruce Mowbray: I cannot imagine going into a restaurant today and being refuse service because of my race.
Bruce Mowbray: but that is exactly what the Indiana law would allow, against gay people or whatever, as long as individual businesses are allowed to discriminate on the basis of belief.
Darren Islar: I can of being gay
Bruce Mowbray: discrimination on the basis of race, of course, is no longer legal.
Bruce Mowbray: but on the basis of sexual identity, sexual orientation, yes legal in almost every state.
Darren Islar: it doesn't mean it's not there anymore
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, racial prejudice is alive and well.... it's just gone underground.
Darren Islar: in a lot of subtle ways there is still a lot of discrimination going on
Qt Core: (i still ask how they could find about that in most cases)
Bruce Mowbray: I asked the same question, QT.
Bruce Mowbray: I mean, and less I announce that I want a wedding cake with two grooms on the top, how are they going to know?
Qt Core: how than cay say if i'm gay (or satanist) when i go buying some bread ?
Bruce Mowbray: unless*
Darren Islar: it means QT you are not allowed to act as you would like to as gay, meeting eyes, a smile, hand in hand, a kiss
Qt Core: *tey can
Qt Core: &they uff
Darren Islar: you need to restrain yourself from normal behavior
Qt Core: yes, i can see that, but that would happen mostly at bars/restaurant, place where you stay for long
Bruce Mowbray: in the state of Ohio, where my typist lives, with the exception of certain large cities, it is perfectly legal for a landlord to expel renters if they are discovered to be gay.
Bruce Mowbray: it is also perfectly legal, except in certain large cities of Ohio, for an employer to fire an employee merely because of that person's sexual orientation.
Darren Islar: true, but it also happens in the street, or even at teh bakery ... that smile can give you a lot of glaring eyes, people responding less to you, etc
Bruce Mowbray: this is the case in most states in America.
Darren Islar: that it is legal worries me
Darren Islar: it's illegal here
Bruce Mowbray: yes it worries me too... and it worries the people in Indiana ( just to the west of Ohio) -- and that is why this is such a big news story.
Qt Core: hejre i think they at most can not rent to you or not renew it but not expelling you)
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Riddle Sideways: is this law going to pass?
Darren Islar: where you come from QT?
Bruce Mowbray: it is already the law!
Riddle Sideways: o
Bruce Mowbray: the governor signed at last week.
Qt Core: italy
Bruce Mowbray: oh, sry.
Darren Islar: ah yes, Italy, I remember now
Bruce Mowbray: Milano!
Riddle Sideways: well turn the calendar back a hundred years
Darren Islar: I think they are going to adjust it for lesbians and gays, but other groups .....
Qt Core: yes
Darren Islar: one of the biggest cities in Italy
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: we are all waiting to see what the Indiana legislature comes up with....
Riddle Sideways: make people wear a star on their jackets?
Bruce Mowbray: the governor challenge them to "fix" the law by the end of this week....
Bruce Mowbray: the only way I can see that would avoid having battles like this in twenty more states, would be for the national Congress to declare sexual orientation and gender identity to be a protected class -- as race, ethnic groups, and religious groups are now protected.
Bruce Mowbray: but the national Congress is dominated by Republicans, so that is simply not going to happen!
--BELL--
Darren Islar: In the 70's and 80's a lot of gay people wore the pink triangle, which gays wore in the concentration camps
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm sorry to have been such a " preacher" today, but, as you can tell, I'm pretty upset about this new law..... although I am very encouraged that so many people are also upset along with me.
Qt Core: you may need something like article 3 of the italian constitution: All citizens have equal social dignity and are equal before the law, without distinction of sex, race, language, religion, political opinions, personal and social conditions. It is the duty of the Republic to remove those obstacles of an economic and social nature which, really limiting the freedom and equality of citizens, impede the full development of the human person and the effective participation of all workers in the political, economic and social organization of the country.
Bruce Mowbray: that sounds like a good law, QT.
Bruce Mowbray: "personal and social conditions" covers a lot of ground!
Bruce Mowbray: I really do need to go now. thank you for being such a kind audience.
Bruce Mowbray: by for now.
Qt Core: bye Bruce
Darren Islar: this religuos tinted national feeling of Americans, is strange to most Europeans
Darren Islar: by Bruce :)
Darren Islar: *bey
Riddle Sideways: need to go too. RL, bah
Qt Core: bye Riddle
Darren Islar: ok, see you areound Riddle
Qt Core: being so near Vatican city ;-) Italy feel religion influence quite a lot
Darren Islar: yes, I can imagine
Darren Islar: though there happens the opposite now
Qt Core: sometimes right wing activist/politician seems way more insistent on religion than the religion itself ;-)
Darren Islar: very true
Qt Core: some of the things Pope Francis says are scandalizing several religion based movements.parties
Darren Islar: though right wing here now means actually freedom for gay's, they are anti-religious
Darren Islar: I need to say he seems to be a brave man
Qt Core: sometimes it seems as he fight something bigger than himself (like the Curia (the church higher administrations or the vatican bank)
Darren Islar: yes I heard of that
Darren Islar: but he seems to want to retreat after 4 yours or so, so I think most will fall back into place again
Qt Core: maybe after naming enough cardinals to swint the next election ;-)
Qt Core: *swing
Darren Islar: I think he needs to stay seated for quite a while then :)
Darren Islar: well, need to go as well, my gf just came online
Qt Core: ok, there are precedence levels after all ;-)
Qt Core: bye
Darren Islar: bye QT