2010.09.10 06:00 - Chapter 4 Conversations Continued

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Using chapters from the manuscript Exploring the Magic of Time: an Introduction to Play as Being while these chapters are being written by Pema Pera, we share and discuss our experiences in reading and working with the material presented in those chapters.  This is session 10.

Pema Pera: I also forgot to start the recording
Maxine Walden: :) so much to keep in mind
Pema Pera: so used to the automatic service from Wol !
Maxine Walden: indeed!
Maxine Walden: quiet beginning today perhaps
Pema Pera: (all of us busy appreciating?)
Maxine Walden: :)), my thought as well
Wester Kiranov: I was going to say that!
Bleu Oleander: appreciating the quiet
Wester Kiranov: :)
Eden Haiku: ;)
Fefonz Quan really liked the metaphor of the stained glass windows
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: I'm glad we could have a little discussion about that topic on our email group
Wester Kiranov: maybe the mood of this chapter is more quiet than the other ones
Fefonz Quan: and i enjoyed very much this chapter
Maxine Walden: yes, it deserved several readings, at least for me
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eden Haiku: Spent many hours at the hospital yesterday with my Parkinsonian uncle who needs a lot of help. Appreciated that Time presented the appearance of so many kind nurses and cheerful nurse-assistants and thoughtful doctors who make his life still enjoyable even if it is so difficult.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Wester Kiranov: I liked the not believing nor disbelieving, and the appreciating in action
Wester Kiranov: hi yak
Liza Deischer: hi Yaku :)
Pema Pera: hi Yaku!
Eden Haiku: Hi Yaku!
Eliza Madrigal: yes, not believing/disbelieving seems such a relief
Fefonz Quan socnd Wester, twice
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Yaku.
Fefonz Quan: seconds*
Eliza Madrigal: Hi ya :)
Maxine Walden: thanks, Eden, for sharing that...must have been moving
Pema Pera: yes, Eden, that's the perfect opportunity for appreciation . . .
Fefonz Quan: in a way, i find that a real secolar approach is not believing and not disbelieving
Maxine Walden: can you say more Fef?
Pema Pera: it all depends what you mean when using the word "secular" . . . . there is a whole spectrum.
Fefonz Quan: i feel that in the US, (maybe i'm wrong" secolar equals 'atheist"
Wester Kiranov: i agree with pema
Bleu Oleander: not necessarily Fef
Bleu Oleander: too often the media tells only a black or white story
Bleu Oleander: many shades in between
Fefonz Quan: (what i said was from living there for 2 years, not from media)
Liza Deischer: If I understand Bruce right an atheist isn't necesarrily a disbeliever
Eliza Madrigal: The thoughts come together for me at the moment as I remember being quite ill at some point... physically hindered and yet not 'believing' in the illness to be all the feared/accepted things... allowing something unexpected to emerge... in my case recovery of a sort thankfully
Eliza Madrigal: (sorry for the long sentence)
Pema Pera: that's a perfect example of postponing / setting aside belief, Eliza, thank you for sharing that!
Bruce Mowbray listens intently.

--BELL--
Maxine Walden: thanks for that, Eliza
Fefonz Quan: for me, secolar may men "without pre-dispositions or apriory believe"
Eliza Madrigal: suspension of judgement?
Fefonz Quan: secular*
Fefonz Quan: suspenssion of axioms or assumptions
Eliza Madrigal: its the one's that are there hidden, that it seems hard to ssupend :)
Fefonz Quan: (judgment is some how a higher level it seems)
Fefonz Quan nods to Eliza, i agree.
Eden Haiku: Thank you Eliza, it illustrates the fact thant when we loosen the "solidity: of the world a new world arises :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wester Kiranov: not just suspension of judgment, but suspension of the beleifs that come before judgment
Liza Deischer: to me it feel more like resonating, where having no pre-dispositions or apriory believe sounds to me like taking distance from yourself (in a scientific, looking at an object kind of way)
Fefonz Quan: yes, exactly what i meant wester
Pema Pera: yes, but the distance can result in more closeness
Pema Pera: when taking distance from our tendency of separation and defense
Maxine Walden: perhaps a giving up of certainties...allowing the apprehensions of uncertainty
Fefonz Quan: No Liza, the other way around: willing to look carefully and in an involving way at yourself, without any axioms of "souls", "extra physical entities" etc.
Liza Deischer: but what is wrong with pre-dispositions, if we are willing to question them ?
Liza Deischer: can we live without pre-dispositions?
Fefonz Quan: if we are willing to questin them, is a big question.
Eden Haiku: "allowing the apprehensions of uncertainty" @Maxine. That seems full of possibilities, I like that.
Wester Kiranov: we do not need to do without predispositions, we just need to see them, see what they're doing
Fefonz Quan: and sometimes these pre-dispositions are so overwhelming, surrounding us from everywhere, that iit is very hard to question
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, nods
Maxine Walden: :)
Liza Deischer: then they wil be there Fonz even if you want to put aside your pre-disposition
Maxine Walden: indeed, Fef, often we are so gripped by 'certainties'
Fefonz Quan: the mere notin that many think that seculr have to"show" that god does not exist shows this issue very clearly
Fefonz Quan: notion*
Eden Haiku: "Only death is certain"
Liza Deischer: not even that :)
Wester Kiranov: but on the other end, there's the notion that as the existence of God can't be proven, he does not exist
Eden Haiku: Not even that, right Liza :)
Fefonz Quan: well, the question itself is a religious question, not secular
Fefonz Quan: and by trying to prove it you by into the religious jargon
Pema Pera is wondering whether Eden read the opening of the next chapter . . . :-)
Fefonz Quan: for a real secular, this questin might not occur at all
Liza Deischer: heheh
Maxine Walden: oh, Pema?
Fefonz Quan: buy*
Bruce Mowbray sees it as psychological - not "spiritual" or religious.
Eliza Madrigal: if we have narrow categories... then 'religion' is also poetry and painting...
Eden Haiku: Putting on her turban, looking up...
Eliza Madrigal: uh oh :)
Eden Haiku: Religion means being 'related to",
Eliza Madrigal hides from Eden's all seeing eye... puts away cookies
Fefonz Quan: religion can be a wonderful system of culture, believes, stories etc.
Liza Deischer: hmmmm, related to, I like that
Wester Kiranov: I think the question whether we call this secular or very secular or religious or esoteric or whatever is not that interesting, AND very explosive
Fefonz Quan: I am related to my wife - am i religious?
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: also "tied with" and "yoked with"
Eden Haiku: To reassaure Eliza, I took a walk with an orange sock and a pink sock the other day says the clairvoyant one who cannot tell her colors in early morning :)
Fefonz Quan: likes that, Bruce
Bleu Oleander: I think we need to agree upon a definition of a word before we argue the concepts behind it
Liza Deischer: I guess Fonz what is meant is connection and I guess religious is about a certain kind of goal and then anything can be religious
Fefonz Quan: so for me, in a way, secular might mean free-minded
Wester Kiranov: it does come back to distance verus closeness
Wester Kiranov: and in the end those two are the same as well
Fefonz Quan: free to explore, to find new things, to break axioms apart
Bruce Mowbray: For me, most of what is called "religious" is actually psychology -- and "really bad religious" is psychosis
Maxine Walden: ...wondering whether we are still musing about the conversation between Pema and Adams re religiious traditions, new questings, offenses, 'stained glass windows'
Liza Deischer: right Bruce, agreed

--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: musing, but is it amusing us? :)
Eden Haiku: (nom. religio) "respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods," in L.L. "monastic life" (5c.); according to Cicero, derived from relegare "go through again, read again," from re- "again" + legere "read" (see lecture). However, popular etymology among the later ancients (and many modern writers) connects it with religare "to bind fast" (see rely), via notion of "place an obligation on," or "bond between humans and gods."
Eden Haiku: Sorry, too long...
Eliza Madrigal: seems so, Maxine, and I appreciate the way you described in email that sense of the tension of the explorer not wanting to betray their 'cutting edge'...
Fefonz Quan: (I didn't get that phrasing in fact - can you say a little more Maxine?)
Maxine Walden: which are you asking about Fef?
Fefonz Quan: betray their 'cutting edge'...
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Zen Arado: hi all
Liza Deischer: hey Zen :)
Bruce Mowbray: This weeks' exercise is a profound for me as any religious experience - and indeed, the practice seems to provide for me what others seem to derive from their "religious" experiences.
Fefonz Quan: Hi Zen
Eden Haiku: whispers hi to Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Zen.
Wester Kiranov: hi zen
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi zen
Pema Pera: hi Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: from the more 'secular' side I think this is an easy trap, to fear that experiencing the immersed world of another, perhaps a mindset of tradition, might mean giving up questioning... something to that extent...
Wester Kiranov: good point eliza
Maxine Walden: In the email link I suggested that thre is an inevitable dilemma between the aspect of our questing explorations beyond traditions which may be experienced by those loyal to the traditions as 'betrayal', that is the exploration is felt as betraying old traditions
Wester Kiranov: there's the closeness of immersion, and then the distance of questioning, and back again, in akind of dance
Fefonz Quan: I see, in fact that's what i thought. that sometimes tradition can be a big obstacle
Maxine Walden: when to the explorer it may not be at all brutal or betraying, but just exploring...these different perceptions...
Liza Deischer: to me religion comes with questioning
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi adams
Maxine Walden: yes... and yet valuing what traditions offer, while exploring beyond...often a dilemma
Pema Pera: hi Adams!
Zen Arado: Hi Adams
Maxine Walden: hi, Adams
Eden Haiku: Good morning Adams :)
Wester Kiranov: hi adams - full circle now
Bleu Oleander: hi Adams
Liza Deischer: hi Adams, you made it :)
Fefonz Quan: interetingly, a week ago I've been to a seminar about Buddhism and Judaism, and an orthodox jewush guy told how much his interest and practice of buddhist meditation made his (Jeaish) belief and prayers much deeper
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams, I'll make you a note
Fefonz Quan: Jewish*)
Adams Dubrovna whispers "Hi Everyone"
Zen Arado: maybe there are two parts - the way we want to practice and deep seated beliefs
Fefonz Quan: So i thought it was an example of how open investigation may not "betray" your roots/believes etc.
Maxine Walden: very nice, example, Fef
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Fef
Pema Pera: yes, indeed
Fefonz Quan: In a way, someone who wouldn't dare to question his own believes (secular or not), is somehow "short of faith" towards them
Liza Deischer: Zen meditation is also used in some christian traditions nowadays
Maxine Walden: interesting thought, Fef...I would tend to agree
Bruce Mowbray: On an individual level - fine, no problem -- but then bring your discoveries back to an entrenched institutional setting that is NOt investigating, and you've got problems.
Pema Pera: yes, indeed Fef!
Eliza Madrigal: yes, that wouldn't seem a living exploration
Pema Pera: yes, Bruce, all mystics clashed with their priests/mulas/whomever was in charge
Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
Bruce Mowbray: But also, in early stages of "traditional" religions (thinking of Talmud, now) there is MUCH investigation and debate.
Fefonz Quan: sometimes the early stages where much more flexible and open than the "late" stages
Pema Pera: and amongst mystics/practitioners
Maxine Walden: yes, Bruce, and it seems that it is human for us to wane in our questing energy at times, and then we may become more staid or 'institutitional'; all because of 'fatigue' about continuing the quest
Wester Kiranov: but in case of the talmud, isn't the debate more about what the Right Way is?
Wester Kiranov: without even the possibility of questioning the existence of a Righ Way
Zen Arado: it's that assumption that there IS a right way that seems to give problems
Fefonz Quan: Well, wester, it still seems better than go ask your rabbi instead
Wester Kiranov: better, but is it enough?
Bruce Mowbray: Most of the Talmud discusses (debates) the relationship between God and the early Jewish community. . . .
Wester Kiranov: I admit I don't know much about the talmud
Fefonz Quan: well, me no nothing about enough. there is always things to be done, paths to evolve

--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: me neither!
Fefonz Quan: know*
Bleu Oleander: how to keep open to appreciate the appearance of ideas seems a challenge
Fefonz Quan: Appreciating the presence of appearance of our circle on the screen now, fills me with a lot of gratitude
Zen Arado: some people seem to be able to hold to two traditions quite easily - I'm not quite sure how - an example is Robert Kennedy who comes to Ireland to lead retreats
Zen Arado: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_(roshi)
Zen Arado: I have discussed this with him but can't see how he reconciles the two tradiotion
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps an environment is nutured within and without, in a setting like this, to hold many views at once...
Zen Arado: mabe my blinkered notions
Eden Haiku: A circle of mystics :)
Bruce Mowbray thinks: Count me in - and Blub too!
Pema Pera: :-)
Maxine Walden: :))
Fefonz Quan: mystics - or realistics? (or both?)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: no contradiction there for me.
Eden Haiku: Blub is the most mystical of us.. a bit christian maybe though ...(a fish!)
Maxine Walden: real mystics?
Adams Dubrovna: A knowledge of the many flavors of one tradition deepens ones knowledge of the flavors in ones own tradition whereas otherwise one might become less flexible about the differences in ones own tradition
Wester Kiranov: both and neither?
Zen Arado: I thought it was some sort of compartmentalization
Fefonz Quan: yes, in a way, mystic is a word coming from the ones that don't want to acknowledge what the mystic experience as real
Pema Pera: yes, Adams, definitely -- and also it is a good idea to follow one tradition in a very deep and probing way
Fefonz Quan: experiences*
Wester Kiranov: trying to see the relity in the mysticism, and the mystery in reality
Fefonz Quan nods to Adams (and pema)
Wester Kiranov: *reality
Fefonz Quan: (reminds of the parable of the man digging holes to find water)
Zen Arado: yes :)
Maxine Walden: don't know that parable Fef
Zen Arado: spiritual gypsies
Fefonz Quan: the man might waste a lot of energy diggin many holes in order to find water beneath the land
Fefonz Quan: but if he focuses on one of them and dig deep enough, he'll get to the water
Bruce Mowbray: So, just one good well is enough?
Maxine Walden: ah, yes...:)
Zen Arado: the depth is important
Eliza Madrigal: very nice Fef
Fefonz Quan: and in some sense, it doesn't matter so much which hole he chose for that
Bruce Mowbray prefers to appreciate the digging itself - regardless of whether one finds water.
Eden Haiku: But to find the right spot to dig the well is important too.
Fefonz Quan: personally, i do believe (:)) that every man should choose the hole appropriate for him
Zen Arado: so much spiritual stuff out there engenders dabbling I think
Adams Dubrovna: some of us just might look for a lake or stream :)
Bleu Oleander: avoiding tunnel vision might be a consideration also
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray enjoys and appreciates dabbling.
Zen Arado: it's difficult
Eden Haiku: In the realistic aspect of the metaphor if there is no phreatic water where you dig the hole, you get no well at all...
Eliza Madrigal has dabbled a lot.... like yoga, try this view, that view, this pose, that pose...
Zen Arado: I dabble too much too I confess
Eliza Madrigal: doesn't necessarily prevent depth...
Eliza Madrigal: so I guess all metaphors are open ended....
Zen Arado: a lot of deep holes ? :)
Bruce Mowbray would like to dabble on a high-speed train going through a tunnel.
Pema Pera: yes, it depends how open you can hold it (@ Eliza)
Eden Haiku: ahah Bruce !
Zen Arado: maybe they all join up anyway
Pema Pera: hehehe, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: (that's for those of you who read Pema's report this week)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen
Fefonz Quan: Yes eden, but maybe it tries to point out, that there are water everywhere, and where from the surface the holes seem seperated, deep down the water connect them all
Wester Kiranov: they probably all connect to the same water
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Bruce Mowbray: many underground rivers and reservoirs
Fefonz Quan: today i should just shut up and let Wester talk, she says it all :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Maxine Walden: :)
Eden Haiku: Was wondering if there was water everywhere, is there, underneath us, lots of water like in Second Life?
Zen Arado: waves on an ocean
Wester Kiranov: I was thinking you all were saying what I was thinking. Maybe we should ALL just shut up :)
Zen Arado: :)
Adams Dubrovna: Being is everywhere
Maxine Walden: appreciate the silence once again, Wester?
Fefonz Quan: right on time Wester :)
Bleu Oleander: valuable to share ideas
Wester Kiranov: It's one of the things I appreciate most here, Maxine
Maxine Walden: the deep flowing waters of the silence?
Maxine Walden: yes, agree
Eliza Madrigal: yes and to share the space from which the ideas sprint
Eliza Madrigal: spring...
Eliza Madrigal: though sometimes they do sprint too
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Maxine Walden: spring or sprint...
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

--BELL--
Maxine Walden: I need to go; wonderful session...see you all soon.
Bleu Oleander: bye Maxine
Maxine Walden: bye all
Wester Kiranov: good to see you max
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Maxine :)
Zen Arado: bye Maxine
Adams Dubrovna: bye maxine. I must go too
Liza Deischer: bye (al)
Fefonz Quan: By Maxine, have a nice weekend :)
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks you, everyone.
Eden Haiku: Me too. Bye veryone. have a nice week end!
Pema Pera: I'll have to go too . . . it is 11 pm here
Eliza Madrigal: Bye to those who are leaving
Bleu Oleander: shall I end the session?
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eden
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone who´s leaving
Fefonz Quan: Bye all leavers
Zen Arado: bye to those leaving
Wester Kiranov: bye to all leaving