2010.09.19 19:00 - Skillful Means - and In-Betweens

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Calvino Rabeni: Hi, good evening, Mitzi and stevenaia :)
Calvino Rabeni: (steve's a ways off...)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Calvino, ... do Ilook like a ball of light to you?
Calvino Rabeni: LIke a kind of aura?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: instead of having an actual avatar visible ... I can see you fine, but I appear as light ..
Calvino Rabeni: You look normal to me
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Aha ... how appearances can be deceiving!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: What is normal, anyway ...? (possible topic) and why might it be comforting to hink one is normall.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: To hink ... haha! Normal or hinkY?!?
Calvino Rabeni: For us it's normal to be abnormal.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... to hink ... perchance to dream ...
Calvino Rabeni: Last night I was trying to leep, but all I could do was hink.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I like to think of myself as both normal, and also as abnormal (or atypical perhaps)
Calvino Rabeni: heheh
Calvino Rabeni: As convenient for various purposes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... to leep! Indeed! Actually laughing out loud over here.
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes I leep while itting and don't now it.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think people overuse the LOL abbreviation. I feel it should only be used when one is ACTUALLY laughing out loud.
Calvino Rabeni: Or soon after, because I can't laugh and type at the same time.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: How poetic! ... I love it - removing the initial consonant - reveals hidden meanings
Calvino Rabeni: I do so like emoving things :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, it's like sneezing - you must close your eyes when sneezing - alaughint as well takes over the organism for a moment.
Calvino Rabeni: and looking at their eanings!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: it's like neezing ... aughing out oud ...
Calvino Rabeni: Nothing better than a really deep awn.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm eaning to the leaning of the meaning
Mitzi Mimistrobell: a rally deep awn under a shady deep awning on a hot day.
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: It does seem really helpful to learn different ways to ean
Mitzi Mimistrobell: What do you think about David Bohm's theory of Implicate Order?
Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm
Calvino Rabeni: I suppose I don't want to see it construed as another form of dualism - that seems regressive.
Calvino Rabeni: It could be interpreted as a form of transcendental idealism.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, without worrying about how it might be construed ... but how does it imply dualism?
Calvino Rabeni: In other words I resist it being reified as type of ontological structure
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Reason I brought up Bohm is that I was reminded of the theory by the idea of there being hidden meanings in the words when you remove the initial letters ... like peeling the onion,a congruent structure that was hidden, is revealed ...
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe I can't see whether it has any meaning outside of the way it leads people to construe process
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, there's an interesting conjecture I suppose about phono-semantics in that observation
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... phono-semantics ... define please?
Calvino Rabeni: The idea that there is something "in common" in the different words with similar sounds
Calvino Rabeni: Thus similar sounds connect in some unspecified way with some phenomena that have categorical similarities
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ok, that's interesting ...
Calvino Rabeni: So in that sense there is an implicit order being addressed by the sounds
Mitzi Mimistrobell: How do you think implicate order would lead people to construe process?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I see (about the sounds)
Calvino Rabeni: As related to ideas about causality
Calvino Rabeni: It seems a lot of classic ideas could be projected upon that idea of implicate order
Calvino Rabeni: I don't know if Bohm differentiated the possibilities
Calvino Rabeni: to indicate whether he had a preferred meaning
Calvino Rabeni: but regardless of that, the ideas get out, the people will construe them as they are wont to do
Calvino Rabeni: regardless of the author's / speakers intended meaning
Calvino Rabeni: It could be construed platonlcally
Mitzi Mimistrobell: like platonic ideals being underlying structures?
Calvino Rabeni: Like there are some kind of kernels of order folded up in a sort of separate space or realm
Calvino Rabeni: which somehow unfold and influence the "explicit" order
Calvino Rabeni: that's one construal
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes ... I guess I find that idea kind of appealing ... what about that idea worries you?
Calvino Rabeni: Its disconnection
Calvino Rabeni: It's inability to shed more light on complex material processes
Calvino Rabeni: It implies a built-in split
Hana Furlough: Hi Cal and Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: So it doesn't for instance tend to reveal the patterns of influence between "objects"
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Hana, good to see you :)
Hana Furlough: good to see you two : )
Hana Furlough: Mizi, your surname is amazing
Hana Furlough: I love it
--BELL--

Hana Furlough: -------
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening Hana
Calvino Rabeni: There's a lot that seems "implicate" in that surname, for instance, but at what points in the explicate order are they influenced?
Hana Furlough: sorry the dashes were from my cat
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I picked it off the list! mostly because of it's resonance with the name "mitzi"
Calvino Rabeni: It seems to tempt one to think there are basically two ontologica levels of structure.
Hana Furlough: Good evening to you, too, Mitzi
Hana Furlough: and hello, Paradise
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe it's layered and complex, or has some other structure
Paradise Tennant: smiles all round :) good evening all :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hey Paradise, nice to see you again.
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Paradise :)
Hana Furlough: Yeah, your whole name is amazing, M
Hana Furlough: Paradise, your dress is beautiful
Paradise Tennant: thank you :)
Calvino Rabeni: We were discussing ilosophy before Hana appeared with her poetry
Calvino Rabeni: and paradise with her dress
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino ... you think Bohm's idea of Implicate Order can lead to lazy thinking? Simplistic modeling? Because it uses "handwaving" to fill gaps up?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I suppose I do Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: Caught me there :)
Hana Furlough: haha is there a difference?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK Cal I understand ... point well taken ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks for explicating
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hana, your first name is similar to my RL last name (Hanna)
Hana Furlough: wow cool
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So ... lots of resonance going on here
Hana Furlough: yes definitely : )
Paradise Tennant: hiya pila :) I did not see you there :)
Calvino Rabeni: And along came Pila
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Hana Furlough: i picked "hana" because it means flower in japanese
Hana Furlough: Hello, Pila~
Pila Mulligan: and Hana means 'work' in Hawaiian :)
Hana Furlough: haha nice
Pila Mulligan: welcome back from your RL journeys Paradise
Mitzi Mimistrobell: We were debating the implications of David Bohm's idea of an "Implicate Order" envolded within reality ... but gosh we could talk about something different now, since we came to a good stopping point ... what's on everyone's mind tongight?
Hana Furlough: that is an excellent double-meaning
Calvino Rabeni: And "mimistrobell" means something to eat, but one has to careful to unlayer it :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Work, eh? Sigh. No getting away from it I guess.
Paradise Tennant: Thanks Pila happy to be home ...implicate order ..?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Mimistrobell means something to eat !!??! I didn't know!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: What is it? Spanokopta or baklava like?
Hana Furlough: lol!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Pila, how are you dude?
Pila Mulligan: fine thanks
Pila Mulligan: and you, Mitzi
Pila Mulligan: would the log person please delete my spurious wrong entyr :)
Calvino Rabeni: According to Bohm, analysis, "conviction and persuasion are not called for in a dialogue".
Calvino Rabeni: I think he was trying to compensate for the patterns of his intellectual milieu
Calvino Rabeni: in order to let something more "implicit" emerge
Pila Mulligan: what is called for, in his estimtion?
Pila Mulligan: estimation*
Calvino Rabeni: but I think he might have avoided "reifying" that idea of implicitness
Calvino Rabeni: It might have been even more efective in his dialog groups to say
Calvino Rabeni: "let's pay attention to subtler idea and impressions and non-patterend forms of knowledge"
Hana Furlough: pure experience?
Calvino Rabeni: Or, just notice tthe correlations between feeling and thought
Calvino Rabeni: No not pure
Calvino Rabeni: that's transcendentalist
Hana Furlough: or kyoto school : )
Calvino Rabeni: Just more present with the subtle and other layers
Hana Furlough: how does it differ?
Calvino Rabeni: If I have a hunch or a felt sense or a general feeling about a situation, it's implicit in what i say, but not pure, and doesn't need to be given some separate ontological status either
Calvino Rabeni: And yet it can be opened up and unfolded to reveal more meaning at the level of explicit patterns
Hana Furlough: ahhh i see
Hana Furlough: because "pure" is inherently dualistic?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Pure kind of puts it back out of reach again as phenomena
Paradise Tennant: In Bohm's view: ...

The general tacit assumption in thought is that it's just telling you the way things are and that it's not doing anything - that 'you' are inside there, deciding what to do with the info. But you don't decide what to do with the info. Thought runs you. Thought, however, gives false info that you are running it, that you are the one who controls thought. Whereas actually thought is the one which controls each one of us. Thought is creating divisions out of itself and then saying that they are there naturally. This is another major feature of thought: Thought doesn't know it is doing something and then it struggles against what it is doing. It doesn't want to know that it is doing it. And thought struggles against the results, trying to avoid those unpleasant results while keeping on with that way of thinking. That is what I call "sustained incoherence"

Hana Furlough: wow cool
Hana Furlough: thanks
Calvino Rabeni: I've got the book "On Dialogue" within reach
Calvino Rabeni: Is that where the quote is from?
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: hmm the wiki page .. was not familar with his writings so looked him up .. he contributed to the manhattan project .. same david bohm ?
Hana Furlough: Hi Steven
Calvino Rabeni: SO basically I think what minds do are grounded in world and body processes and that to philosophize about dualistic ontological realms tends to put seeing that, out of reach
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello :)
Hana Furlough: yeah i could see where you'd say that
Calvino Rabeni: IMO all those theories do is destabilize naive materialism, but don't do a good job of pointing at alternatives
Hana Furlough: does it post any positive alternatives?
Paradise Tennant: smiles is there a cynical materialism :)
Calvino Rabeni: Funny, Para :)
Calvino Rabeni: It seems like saying "there's more here than meets the eye" which may be true, but where do you go from there?
Hana Furlough: yeah sounds like it might be hard to make a leap to something else
Calvino Rabeni: How does one know whether to keep on talking about something
Hana Furlough: ask the wisteria : )
Paradise Tennant: lol
Calvino Rabeni: Like a scenario, one has some uncomfortable encounter at work, and then gets to talking to a friend about it ...
Calvino Rabeni: And might decide whether that's in some way a good thing to do, or not
Paradise Tennant: Bohm wrote a proposal for a solution that has become known as "Bohm Dialogue", in which equal status and "free space" form the most important prerequisites of communication and the appreciation of differing personal beliefs
Mitzi Mimistrobell: uhm hmmm ...
Calvino Rabeni: Or - in a Bohm dialogue group, knowing when the group is somehow following the implicit idea of Bohm Dialogue?
Calvino Rabeni: So Free Space - what is it?
Calvino Rabeni: Acknowledging it's importance
Calvino Rabeni: then one might think - here we are doing bohm dialogue, is there Free Space?
Calvino Rabeni: And based on that discrimination, change tack a little
Calvino Rabeni: Something more subtle than just "don't rant about the government in a Bohm Dialogue group"
Calvino Rabeni: Or any number of basically mechanical familar patterns of speech
Calvino Rabeni: On the other hand, if one feels "Free Space" as one understands it, that could indicate something ...
Calvino Rabeni: Bohm seemed also to want to deemphasize the status of Belief
Calvino Rabeni: to create some kind of more flexible seeing or cognition
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe to drop the persuasion and proseletizing
Calvino Rabeni puts down the talking stick
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like the idea of equal status - holding that in mind might help us listen more deeply to each other
Calvino Rabeni: *
Hana Furlough: lol, cal!
Calvino Rabeni: Hana?
Hana Furlough: your comment on putting down the talking stick
Calvino Rabeni: heh OK
Mitzi Mimistrobell: If we are doing this to help dig more deeply into the n ature of reality as especienced by each other - we are each other's richest resource for exploration and mining gems from each other's depths
Calvino Rabeni: !! Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: I am thinking about how that could be done
Calvino Rabeni: the things in the depths - they are not explicit language forms
Calvino Rabeni: emotional communication
Calvino Rabeni: In SL you can't see someone release their breath
Hana Furlough: but i think you can feel it
Hana Furlough: between the lines in the dialougue box
Paradise Tennant: smiles at hana and softly exhales :)
Hana Furlough: : )
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: but they could be sensed through the words and the resences of each other
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, like those dropped initial letters we played with earlier ... I'm thinking about the *-voking words - speech acts with different effects and qualities
Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi, how would you pursue your idea
Calvino Rabeni: about enabling the depths to come out in a group or dialogue
stevenaia Michinaga: time to depart, thanks all
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Steve :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Hana Furlough: have a good night, s
stevenaia Michinaga: thx
Mitzi Mimistrobell: see ya, stevie
Paradise Tennant: good nite steve take care
Calvino Rabeni: :) stevie-pie
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I would pursue my idea through the way I interact with each of you ...
Paradise Tennant: smiles at mitzi ! interactively :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... seeing each of you as a rich treasure trove, and respectuflly asking more, curious, what amazing wisdom might I find tonight?
Calvino Rabeni: Evidently Mitzi already does that
Calvino Rabeni: Alertness and curiosity
Calvino Rabeni: one needs to be responsive in ones own depths
Mitzi Mimistrobell: (response to paradice!) smiling too
Paradise Tennant: smiles I sit on buses and think those thoughts sometimes :)
Calvino Rabeni: :) Para - cafes too :)
Hana Furlough: wow, that's beautiful!
Paradise Tennant: the wealth of understanding and knowledge that is just floating around me
Calvino Rabeni: to what's happening others'
Hana Furlough: yes
Hana Furlough: deep listening
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Many wisdom schools say that everything is there already ... thus, the change needed to see that would be within ourselves .. our attitudes, our way of interfacing with reality ... if indeed it's all there, how can we shift our perspective to reveal that?
Paradise Tennant: fog on the mirror of our buddha nature which happily everyone has equally
Hana Furlough: perhaps we can ask us to reveal us
Calvino Rabeni: By active receptivity
Calvino Rabeni: By having Free Space within oneself
Calvino Rabeni: By self observation, by intending to self-disclose skillfully, to be seen (in Pema's words)
Calvino Rabeni: Giving other people something to work with
Calvino Rabeni: Not so much trying to control their process to preconceived ends
Hana Furlough: can you say more about "Giving other people something to work with"?
Calvino Rabeni: Treating questions as open
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I fear we are often by default, egoistically oriented ... much more interested in our own "stuff" than others. This is a mistake that obscures us from what is there ...
Calvino Rabeni: presenting a full band of responses on different levels
Calvino Rabeni: not being attached to results, going with what happens
Hana Furlough: sounds good to me
Calvino Rabeni: being able to see the bright side of phenomena that don't match expectations,
Calvino Rabeni: positive feedback
Calvino Rabeni: showing up in lots of ways
Calvino Rabeni: being good at leading and following
Calvino Rabeni: as in partner dancing
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So instead of seeing Paradise or Pila in a certain way - I have a model formed in my mind - assume that this model is really "off" - those models would be something we "have" (as in "drop what you have to see what you are")
Calvino Rabeni: or maybe, it includes the courage to get behind ones words and actually identify *more*
Calvino Rabeni: but in a flexible way
Calvino Rabeni: to "take it on" when hearing from others
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, drop them. Who are you all anyway? (I can't really ask that ... I don't want an answer ... but I can draw you out and have subtle perceptions about you
Paradise Tennant: so not so distinct
Paradise Tennant: blinks ... hmmm .. normally I just assume we are all part of one thing and I am a bit of you and you are a bit of me .. :)
Calvino Rabeni: that seems a pretty useful notion to me, Para
Pila Mulligan confesses to IMing with Paradise about Italian food and her recent vacation there :)
Paradise Tennant: I was one with pistachio gelato that much I am certain of
Pila Mulligan: well, it is apetizing for sure
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Cal, I like what you said about identifying *more* but in a flexible way - like, owning it more, thus energizing the model more? And, maybe it will evolve or vivify more quickly?
Calvino Rabeni: that'swhat I was thinking Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: Energizing it to help it evolve
Hana Furlough: I should get going... great chatting with you all and thanks : )
Paradise Tennant: take care hana nice to see you again
Calvino Rabeni: See you later Hana :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening, Hana, work hard this week!
Pila Mulligan: bye Hana
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... Or be flowerlike ...!
Paradise Tennant: smiles flowerlike sounds much more appealing
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like the idea of energizing more!
Paradise Tennant: so what does it all boil down to?
Calvino Rabeni: How about, having a sense of the energetic dynamics of a situation, and then participating in a way that helps it along, depending on what it needs?
Calvino Rabeni: Like the cycles in Tai Chi or the I Ching ... knowing what the needs of "the time" are and adjusting accordingly
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan slips off too -- with regrets for the occasional prior incoherences :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good seeing you Pila
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, perhaps to take best advantag of what we are up to here in Play as Being ... We should be more open, more respectful, and more energized?
Calvino Rabeni: That could often be really appropriate IMO.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Pila, all that form stuff matters very little to me personally.
Calvino Rabeni: Form as dual of function - That's yin and yang ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: very terse ... unpack?
Calvino Rabeni: No forms are static, they are moving energy
Calvino Rabeni: but energy doesn't move except through form
Mitzi Mimistrobell: right, right ...
Calvino Rabeni: it makes little sense to take one of them as the cause of the other
Calvino Rabeni: So if someone says "this form", one can take it as an opportunity to respond as if they said "energy moved ... until *here* ..." and respond about the energy aspect of it not the static form aspect.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, there is a correlation - hard to prove causation
Paradise Tennant: puts the undivided universe on her reading list
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Undivided universe? Is that Bohm?
Paradise Tennant: yes the book where he proposes implicate order
Calvino Rabeni: Correlation is a modest perspective
Calvino Rabeni: causation seems to rigidly stereotype things
Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, I hear ... until *here* being a boundary of some type
Calvino Rabeni: it strikes me how very primitive all our notions of causality are
Calvino Rabeni: vastly oversimplifying
Calvino Rabeni: It almost feels like we haven't learned anything past the classics about causality
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I agree about primitive ideas of causality ... it's more a matter of how far afield of the immediate phenomena one agress to stop and say, "this" caused this - because each cause is an effect of other causes, and so on, until inifinity, really ...
Calvino Rabeni: circularly and infinitely
Calvino Rabeni: one could say reality is dominated by context
Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's more sociological really, customs of how we talk about causality and where we stop
Calvino Rabeni: anything correlated with context, is an implicate order
Calvino Rabeni: but it seems only a consequence of how far one chooses to look
Calvino Rabeni: not a consequence of anything ontological
Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmmm
Calvino Rabeni: It's like the concept of Chaos
Calvino Rabeni: outside of certain specific technical definitions
Calvino Rabeni: it basically just says - I'm ignorant of - or choosing not to consider - some aspects of context with which my patterns are correlated
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Maybe how much our mind can hold at once might detrmine the general reach of how we talk about causality
Paradise Tennant: well he wanted to make science fit our perception of reality to describe the whole of nature the whole of ourselves
Calvino Rabeni: But to get beyond those fairly tight constraints - which apply to explicit and linear pattern formation - we have poetic modes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Calviono, well said (re poetic modes as well as being ignorant of, or choosing not to consider, some aspect of context) ... very clear
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calviono! Ha ha! (calvino's evil twin perhaps)
Calvino Rabeni: * Paradise yes
Calvino Rabeni: :))
Calvino Rabeni: My evil twin showed up today in SL, I was a bit shocked
Paradise Tennant: the universe is constantly defining itself in ways .. we do not grasp yet ..
Mitzi Mimistrobell: OOh! Do tell! What havoc did he wreack?
Paradise Tennant: lol listens
Calvino Rabeni: In addition to poetic modes, we have parallel constructions ...
Calvino Rabeni: like in the movie Inception, it points out that the brain can construct a vastly complex imaginative scenario and change it very quickly
Calvino Rabeni: a whole world, with time telescoped
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: So a lot of the reason we "think" things are hard to "think" about is that we assume the mind must be a linear, structured, narrow, unambiguous process - and all those other notions of classic rationality -
Calvino Rabeni: Could our computers construct SL on the screen, without parallel processing?
Calvino Rabeni: Not just in my little laptop, but yours, and yours, and the linden labs server farms, and the processes that feed the textures into the hard disks, etc.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: maybe those things are not so much hard to hink about, as hard to talk about or express
Calvino Rabeni: if that's true, you might be thinking in parallel ways, and be aware of it happening
Calvino Rabeni: but find the bottleneck in expresion
Calvino Rabeni: so one question is - is the bottleneck as narrow s it seems to be?
Calvino Rabeni: Ask a poet for a more liberal viewpoint I suppose
Calvino Rabeni: Or a skilled public speaker like Bill Clinton
Calvino Rabeni: who manages to address multiple audiences and multiple concerns all at once
Mitzi Mimistrobell: skillful means
Calvino Rabeni: *
Paradise Tennant: smiles and thinks her sleepy twin .. is already headed for bed :)
Calvino Rabeni: :))) Paradise
Calvino Rabeni: Mine is already tucked in
Paradise Tennant: good nite you two... interesting as always .. need to read up on this more :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: interesting question is the botleneck as narrow as it seems to be.
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks as always Paradise -
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Paraside - nice dress as always. H. Hope your week si as lush as your dress
Calvino Rabeni: Is it narrow because of epistemological assumptions?
Calvino Rabeni: Or practice, or some "hardware" reason
Calvino Rabeni: or a functional reason, like the inhibition of a good cooperation between the intellectual capacities and the emotional?
Calvino Rabeni: Or is it infomational
Calvino Rabeni: Like always trying to repeat infomation that can legitimately be taken as implicit
Mitzi Mimistrobell: or the inherent limitations of English as opposed to Hungarian or Finnish that have many more verb tenses
Calvino Rabeni: I'm dubious
Calvino Rabeni: Some langagues have none
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, you got me, that was a rather superficial comment
Calvino Rabeni: they may have a different mode and style of expression
Calvino Rabeni: less ability to "represent" with precision
Calvino Rabeni: more ability to evoke or invoke meaning instead of "defining" it
Calvino Rabeni: Or is it "emotional patterns" such as fear and reticence, conservatism
Calvino Rabeni: As sometimes we experience thinking well and with flow
Calvino Rabeni: and other times "shut down" somewhat
Calvino Rabeni: and it is correlated with hidden fears and other things going on
Mitzi Mimistrobell: probably large dollops of both
Calvino Rabeni: Sure
Calvino Rabeni: Well Mitzi
Mitzi Mimistrobell: well..
Calvino Rabeni: I suppose I find questions evocative :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... this has been quite fun ... but is it winding down?
Calvino Rabeni: That suits me ok, how about you?
Calvino Rabeni: Anything *need* to be finished / expressed?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes ... much food for thought ... so, till next time Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: I often with some friends, go for the 5 minute warning :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we can pick it back up any time.
Calvino Rabeni: I'll talk to you soon :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye then ...
Calvino Rabeni: TC mitzi