2010.09.17 07:00 - Peeling Open

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal.

The comment is by Eliza Madrigal.

This session followed Time.

Eliza Madrigal: A lovely and gentle session...
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, just sitting with that.. tasting it...
Eden Haiku: Yes
Eden Haiku: Tasting Time.
Bleu Oleander: tasty time
Eden Haiku: And my morning coffee:)
Eliza Madrigal: tasting time presenting
Eliza Madrigal: presenting coffee...heh
Eden Haiku: The presence of appearance
Bleu Oleander: cup of time
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eden Haiku: A cup of time :))) @Bleu
Eden Haiku: Contained time

Eliza Madrigal: one thing, practically, I worked with for a few days... is that effort does not equal time
Eden Haiku: tell us more?
Eliza Madrigal: one day I can put so much into something, and have little to 'show' for it...
Eliza Madrigal: another day I can slack off and then have a burst of creativity that accomplishes a week... or lifetime...
Eliza Madrigal: It is what I saw in the phone call (cup?)... that conversation I wrote about

Eden Haiku: Ah yes. I put hours and hours in my puzzle and it certianly doesn't look like it :((
Bleu Oleander: can relate to that!
Bleu Oleander: Storm and Eos have very creative solutions to their puzzles
Eden Haiku: And yes, sometimes it just is the contrary (not with puzzling puzzles for me yet though...)
Bleu Oleander: have you seen them?
Eliza Madrigal: well when sharing with friends, that's okay... we can see the beauty of the aspiration, too
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't yet
Eden Haiku: Oh no, last time I went was about 3 days ago...Will go see that.:)
Eliza Madrigal: It may be tomorrow before I'm able to see and also work on my own...
Bleu Oleander: Storm questions whether other species experiences time as we do
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, nice question
Eden Haiku: My time is competing between unpacking and puzzle....
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert :) Nice to see you
Bleu Oleander: hi Bert
Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody - ty ! :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Eden, those seem overlapping universes :)
Eden Haiku: Hi Bert, happy to see you too :)
Bertram Jacobus: aww - all so kind ! ... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: It relates to my observation too... sometimes time unpacks everything generously... and sometimes seems to withold... but of course it can't be time doing that
Eliza Madrigal: must be 'me' :)
Eliza Madrigal: wrestling with an invisible interface

Eden Haiku: Will see them like that Eliza, good point. Did a lot of unpacking yesterday, was amazed at all I did in fact. Just finishing touches today. Still many hours though...
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: So is it the sense of accomplishment? Of satisfaction... that we measure?
Eden Haiku: Ah 'unpacking" that way, yeahhh!!! giggles.
Eliza Madrigal: or try to
Bleu Oleander: time baggage to unpack
Eliza Madrigal: heheh....
Eliza Madrigal: the baggage of time.... wow

Eden Haiku: Would love to "pack" the words "presence of appearance" so I can unpack them in a zip.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eden Haiku: Instead of going through the blank mind stage for a while...
Eliza Madrigal loves blank stage
Eliza Madrigal: "the rest is silence"
Eden Haiku: I know Eliza :) you are a very brave soul ;))
Eliza Madrigal: (though rarely silent-hehe)
Eden Haiku: hehe
Eden Haiku: Words bubbling from your inner silent state Eliza, I can taste that.
Bleu Oleander: speaking through the silence
Eliza Madrigal: let's begin again, after the lights go out, and the stage is bare, and we're still there, still standing there as if to say, its all okay, forgiven... let's start living... begin again

Eden Haiku: A PaB Yom Kippur :)
 

Eliza Madrigal: (little song that bubbled up once)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I love that, yes PaB Yom Kippur
Eliza Madrigal: empty cup
Eden Haiku: Are you feeling lost Bertarn? We are babbling from the Time session at 6 amSLT...
Eliza Madrigal: hahahaha
Eliza Madrigal: babbling and bubbling
Eden Haiku: An empty cup of Time
Bertram Jacobus: no. tyvm eden - i love to read here - and also in a group message window there is just something happening for me i like to admit ... ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: I keep thinking of the image of pulling back curtains of the sky
Bertram Jacobus: hey adoro ! :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arch :) Hi adoro :)
Eden Haiku: Good Bertram :) Now, I'M going to proceed eating my cererals at the desktop. Might be silent for a few minutes (to protect my keyboard).
adoro Rhapsody: hi all

--BELL--
 

Bertram Jacobus: hello arch ... :-)
Bleu Oleander: need to go .... fun session .... bye for now :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu, thanks :)
Bertram Jacobus: have a nice time !
adoro Rhapsody: bye blue sky
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Archmage Atlantis: Hi All, Bye Bleu
Eden Haiku: Bye Bleu!

Eliza Madrigal: Time can be very nice, but gets blamed for so much...
Eden Haiku: Time as a friend.
Eliza Madrigal: for killing everyone, stealing things...
Bertram Jacobus: but time is also famous for allmighty healing (!) : "time heals all wounds" (?) :-)
Eliza Madrigal: yes :) World/Experience as a friend
adoro Rhapsody: only good time as a friend
Eliza Madrigal: Greetings Lawrence :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi :)
Bertram Jacobus: hey lawrence ! :-)
adoro Rhapsody: hi law
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, L
Eden Haiku: Hey Lawrence, Adoro and Arch :))

Eliza Madrigal: We've been discussing time this morning...
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Lawrence Vyceratops: In any particular sense of time?
Eliza Madrigal: Maxine used the image of pixelations to describe a sense of experiencing time
Bertram Jacobus: and that seem have to been a very inspiring discussion ? :-)
Eliza Madrigal: very much so Bertram, yes
adoro Rhapsody: wow
adoro Rhapsody: i like time
Eliza Madrigal: So in considering time in that way, and as each moment a new corridor of awareness...
adoro Rhapsody: never a dull moment ?
Eliza Madrigal: we came to Eden's image of a blank slate feeling when turning over the phrase ' the presence of appearance'...
Eliza Madrigal: haha Yes Adoro
Eden Haiku: That day I experienced peeling off the sky...
Eliza Madrigal listens
adoro Rhapsody: its tea time here
adoro Rhapsody: afternoon
adoro Rhapsody: 16.22
Bertram Jacobus: helllo zen ! ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: oops - he´s still to far away ... lol
Eden Haiku: I was riding in a horse-drawn carriage in Egypt. I was with a little group of friends and somehow I was late and I was joining them at the sound and light show at Karnark Temple in Luxor.
Eliza Madrigal: oh wow...
Eden Haiku: So I was by myself in that carriage and the sky was a pale green, near sunset.
adoro Rhapsody: and how was your time experience ?
Eden Haiku: It felt completely unreal, with the shadows of palm trees and the exotic place.
adoro Rhapsody: but it was real
Bertram Jacobus: helllo zen :-)

Eliza Madrigal is struck by that thought... it 'felt' completely unreal
 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Eden Haiku: And then I felt I could reach out to the screen of the pale green sky and peel it off to see what was behind the whole unreal scene.
Zen Arado: Hi all
adoro Rhapsody: hi zen
Eliza Madrigal: like a film that one could just loosen the edge of..
Eden Haiku: Hi Zen :)
adoro Rhapsody: i felt the same in dream dance at Bertrams place
Eliza Madrigal: an eye lid
Eden Haiku: Yes, the pale green sky seemed just like that: a film, a thin layer...
Bertram Jacobus: hy nio :-)
adoro Rhapsody: hi nio
adoro Rhapsody: rio
Eliza Madrigal: did it seem something 'out there' or from within, Eden? this sense of things/vision?
Zen Arado: Hi Nio :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Nio :)
Eden Haiku: Yes Adoro, dream dance and many Second Life experiences bring forth a lot of sensations like that :)
adoro Rhapsody: and i didnt hav to fly to Egypt
Eden Haiku: It was from within Eliza. A strong conviction that "nothing is real". Strawberry Fields...:)))
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha some outfit, nio!
Eliza Madrigal: indeed.... there is something to see there.... each moment own context...
adoro Rhapsody: nice outfit nio rio
Eden Haiku: Hiccups Nio?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi nio :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hey, you took Alfred's face :)
adoro Rhapsody: u steel the show today
nio Artful: ㋡ ☆*¨¨*:•.•:*¨* hallo hello hi holla *¨¨*:•.•:*¨*☆ ㋡
nio Artful: yacuzza
adoro Rhapsody: nio in a box
nio Artful: always
adoro Rhapsody: the bravery of being out of range !
adoro Rhapsody: nio !
nio Artful: excuse me >?
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you for sharing that Eden... I can sense that kind of shakiness of glimpsing the 'unreality' of one's context
adoro Rhapsody: just in time for the sunsets here
--BELL--
Eden Haiku: Yes :) Eliza, you must have felt some of that shakiness in Japan recently, haven't you?
Eliza Madrigal: Ah... Japan was wonderful. In Japan I had a dream of the sort I'd never had before... as though the place were dreaming me....

Eden Haiku: Zen and Yaku, I was so impressed by your poetic skills at last Monday morning session. All resistance gone, it was wonderful. Did you enjoy it?

Eden Haiku: Oh Eliza, do tell us!
Eliza Madrigal: there was a home feeling there
Zen Arado: I enjoyed it
Eden Haiku: What was the dream Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: that was it... it seems impossible to describe... home comes closest... like there wasn't an identity of me dreaming... just the place, sharing
Eliza Madrigal: a hug from a place... haha
Eden Haiku: Oh, Japan felt like home in the dream? Amazing!
Eden Haiku: A hug from a place, love that!
Eliza Madrigal: something like that... we use terms like that but it was an emergence....

Yakuzza Lethecus: i really enjoyed the monday session
Yakuzza Lethecus: it was great that you ,,suddenly initiated that"
Eliza Madrigal: It read wonderfully too!!

Eden Haiku: Yakuzza was so good at reading the collective poem, you missed that reading Zen I think...

Eliza Madrigal: I could 'feel' having been in the session though I wasn't there
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eden Haiku: Yes Eliza,, your blessing was certainly with us :)
Bertram Jacobus: and i felt something of your dream feeling i guess eliza - ty for sharing it ! ...
Eliza Madrigal: the logs can be like the pensieve in Harry Potter

Curious? http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Muggles'_Guide_to_Harry_Potter/Magic/Pensieve

Eliza Madrigal: thank you Bert :)
adoro Rhapsody: well what has it to do with time ?
Eden Haiku: Oh yes, we 'drop' into the pensieve of the logs! What a great image Eliza!
adoro Rhapsody: did i miss something ?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sweet, Eden :)
Eliza Madrigal: well we experience time as something coming at us sometimes I think....
Eden Haiku: WE are talking about another session Adoro, sorry. Let me give you the link,..
Eliza Madrigal: something we have to reckon with?
adoro Rhapsody: not that i know
Eliza Madrigal: that is the view of solidifying things.. labeling and capturing...
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think so adoro - only may be that topics sometimes in chats switch very fast, even instantly - also forward and backwards so to say ...
adoro Rhapsody: i see
adoro Rhapsody: never mind
Eliza Madrigal: but what about time emerging... from a session, from sharing, from a moment of awareness....
Zen Arado: we never quite know what we are talking about sometimes :)
Eliza Madrigal: in a quality
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: thats human
Eliza Madrigal giggles @ Zen
Zen Arado: at least I don't
adoro Rhapsody: me too
Eliza Madrigal fully realizes that only Eden understands her
Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
Eliza Madrigal: kidding :)
Eden Haiku: It certainly switches swifly yes Bert and we often don't know what we are talking about as Zen says. Trying to locate the link for Adoro...
Zen Arado: nobody understands me :(
Eliza Madrigal: "Not knowing is most intimate" Zen
adoro Rhapsody: i like the way of thinking of zen
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: my wife doesn't understand me
Eden Haiku: But we love you Zen!
Bertram Jacobus: agree !
Zen Arado: that's cos I haven't got one though
Eliza Madrigal: you have a wife, Zen?!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh =P~
Zen Arado: but she wouldn't anyway
Eden Haiku: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: that's the only way to stay married
Eden Haiku: But she would love you Zen!
Eden Haiku: ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ya :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye yaku
Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Yakuzza
Zen Arado: bye Yaku
Eden Haiku: Bye Yakuzza :)
Bertram Jacobus: have a nice day !
Eliza Madrigal loves when sessions go 'off road'

Lawrence Vyceratops: Our language is so metaphorical. Perhaps this is why it is often difficult for us to understand each other. Meanings we place on our language can be so subjective.
Zen Arado: if a man is alone in the forest without his wife is he still wrong? :)
adoro Rhapsody: well i was in a pause
Lawrence Vyceratops: hahaha zen
Eliza Madrigal: a pause is a blank slate of sorts.. a canvas....
adoro Rhapsody: i see

Eliza Madrigal: Lawrence, does it not depend on what we're expecting though, as far as adequately 'understanding'
Lawrence Vyceratops: that was very metaphorical ;)
Eden Haiku: Language so metaphorical yes...So many worldviews and different realities too yes Lawrence
Zen Arado: nah - just thinking of the next thing to say...
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, we expect a lot, Eliza. ;)

Eden Haiku: You think before you type Zen? Impressive...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eden Haiku: I don't, unfortunately...
Zen Arado: hmmm... maybe I don't
Eden Haiku: Most of the time...
Zen Arado: maybe I should :)

--BELL--
 

Eden Haiku: Maybe you should ( confusing you here)
Eden Haiku: ;)
adoro Rhapsody: maybe we should
Eden Haiku: Meditating on hiccups is a first for me :)

Zen Arado: better if we express our true self?
Zen Arado: not ego self thinking thoughts?
Eliza Madrigal: or allow 'true self' to express itself... then appreciate that...
Lawrence Vyceratops: True self?

adoro Rhapsody: as an avatar ?
adoro Rhapsody: or as human behind the avatar ?

Eliza Madrigal: 'drop what you have to let what you are be seen'
Zen Arado: allow it to speak
Eden Haiku: Sorry Adoro, I cannot find the link. The Wiki is not available somehow. .
Zen Arado: but what will it say?
Lawrence Vyceratops: You guys are speaking metaphorically again. ;) heheh
Zen Arado: it might embarass us
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: embrace us
Eliza Madrigal: metaphor is just acknowledging the pointing fingers....
Eden Haiku: I will try again in a few minutes. maybe it will work again. It happens sometimes.
Eden Haiku: Ah, Bertram, yes, the arc looks better that way :)
nio Artful: back
Lawrence Vyceratops: front
Bertram Jacobus: ty eden :-)
nio Artful: side
Zen Arado: Cheri Huber said that she often finds the right answer to a students question just comes into her mind from somewhere
nio Artful: all views are satisfied
Eliza Madrigal: so metaphor seems more honest... all words are just representations too...
Zen Arado: she's a kind of spiritual teacher
Eliza Madrigal smiles at Zen
Eliza Madrigal: I've never heard of her, but appreciate that idea

Eliza Madrigal: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2010/09/2010.09.13_07%3a00_-_%22Sudden_strong_emotions_struggle_for_release%22_(writing_a_collective_poem)

Zen Arado: http://www.cherihuber.com/

Eliza Madrigal: link to the collective poem session :)

Eden Haiku: Bertram, I read in a previous log that you were looking for a new job. Are you settled now?
Eliza Madrigal: ty zen
Eden Haiku: Thanks Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal likes her title "When you're falling, dive" hahaha
Eliza Madrigal is always falling
Eden Haiku: hehe
Zen Arado: :)
Bertram Jacobus: not yet eden. will need a while i guess. but that´s okay - may be around a month or two - let´s see. and ty for being interested in other´s affairs ! that feels quite altruistic to me ... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
adoro Rhapsody: nice said bert
adoro Rhapsody: bert
adoro Rhapsody: altruistic
Eliza Madrigal: Shakti filled Eden :)
adoro Rhapsody: thats the word
nio Artful: what is altruistic?
adoro Rhapsody: i searched for
adoro Rhapsody: the opposite of egoistic
Bertram Jacobus: it´s so to say the contrary of egoistic nio
Eliza Madrigal: a natural good will... caretaking, consideration...
Lawrence Vyceratops: altruism is being concerned for others, sometimes to the detriment of self
Bertram Jacobus: comes from latin "alter", which means "the other"
Zen Arado: like a boddhisattva

Eden Haiku: Well, I realized you were a real person behind the playful avatar and I felt sorry to hear you lost a job. I have seen you in your nice suit for a wedding, you looked so much light and then there was this real life struggle behind it all...

Eliza Madrigal: she peeled the sky back....
Zen Arado: what was behind it?
Zen Arado: another one?
Eden Haiku: A sweet Navi warrior :)
Eliza Madrigal: of sorts perhaps, but also the awareness of that
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - where did you see and notice my sl wedding invitation (and / or -clothing) i had to follow eden !? ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sweet :)
Zen Arado: and the successive skies get thinner
Zen Arado: and more transparent
nio Artful: a friend told me that altruistic is to give with out to expect something back also how do you understand that is right or tooo much?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Have to get going.. :)
Eden Haiku: Saw you in your party clothes and read about it in the logs Bertram...
Bertram Jacobus: bye lawrence - have a nice day !
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lawrence... you'll have to help us not talk in metaphors next time.. hehe
adoro Rhapsody: bye law
nio Artful: bye..
Eden Haiku: Bye Lawrence, was nice to see you :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Zen Arado: if you start to calculate it isn't it I think
 

Lawrence Vyceratops: It was nice seeing you all.
Zen Arado: bye Lawrence
Eliza Madrigal: You too, bye for now
adoro Rhapsody: pleasure was mine
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay (eden) :-)
Eliza Madrigal: even if I say, I am cooking a pie, and it is true, it is a metaphor.... hehhe
Zen Arado: or if you think about it rather than do it spontaneously it isn't altruism I think
Eden Haiku: Will have to go at the next bell too. Thank you for taking the time session log and for this session Eliza. :))
Eden Haiku: Bye everyone, have a nice week end!
Eliza Madrigal: Me too actually... long day ahead and am filling in for lucinda tonight

Bertram Jacobus: but my latest impresson was again - being a "warrior" seems to be really not my path (!) ...
Eliza Madrigal: Much appreciation
Eden Haiku: Ah @Bert :)
adoro Rhapsody: dont worry
Eliza Madrigal: gentle warrior
adoro Rhapsody: warior
Zen Arado: go gently into the night....
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: [then bye already now eden ! and eliza] ;-)
adoro Rhapsody: bye girls
Zen Arado: bye Eden, Eliza
nio Artful: bye,..
Eliza Madrigal waves, bye for now
adoro Rhapsody: namaste
adoro Rhapsody: i like to sit near nio
nio Artful: `*.¸.*´ Dank you! `*.¸.*´
adoro Rhapsody: yw
adoro Rhapsody: its a total new experience
adoro Rhapsody: on the side of such a creature
nio Artful: lol..
adoro Rhapsody: so original decorated
adoro Rhapsody: never seen that before
nio Artful: ecological ineed
adoro Rhapsody: in all my life
adoro Rhapsody: nice green
nio Artful: indeed
nio Artful: hi..
Zen Arado: it looks like an Irish outfit
Bertram Jacobus: hey edwnly ! ... ;-)
nio Artful: Thank you! :)
nio Artful: adoro
adoro Rhapsody: hi edwin
Edwnly Revestel: hello
Zen Arado: Hi Edwynly
nio Artful: games....why we play games?
Zen Arado: have you been here before Ed?
nio Artful: and art also why?
Bertram Jacobus: yes he has ;-)
Zen Arado: ok :)
adoro Rhapsody: never seen u before
adoro Rhapsody: but how are u ?
Bertram Jacobus: i think, that are variations to handle life nio. playing may be more intense also learning then art may be ...
Bertram Jacobus: art more for relaxin perhaps
Zen Arado: homo ludens
Bertram Jacobus: yess

adoro Rhapsody: playing can be as serious as life is
Bertram Jacobus: play as being ;-)
adoro Rhapsody: art too
Zen Arado: game playing is part of our development I think
nio Artful: mmm
adoro Rhapsody: to play or not to play
Zen Arado: like kittens play with a ball of wool
adoro Rhapsody: give the ppl bread and plays
Zen Arado: ha ha bread and circuses
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Zen Arado: you read that book adoro?
adoro Rhapsody: thats the new generation
adoro Rhapsody: not yet
nio Artful: how can someone play games altruisticaly?games are boring when are not competitive
adoro Rhapsody: but i heard about it
nio Artful: not always ofcourse
Zen Arado: it's in a Dickens novel called 'Hard Times'
Zen Arado: he criticized Utilitarian ideas
adoro Rhapsody: well i go to eat
adoro Rhapsody: bye all
Bertram Jacobus: bye adoro
nio Artful: how someone can play a game in altruistic way?would not that be boring to all?
nio Artful: to let others win i mean
Bertram Jacobus: some people are able to do such for children sometimes, for example ... ;-)
nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*

nio Artful: but when a kid relises the truth will be bored too
Zen Arado: games tend to lose the point if you do not play to win
nio Artful: exactly
nio Artful: but...
Zen Arado: altruism would be playing a game you do not like much because your children want you too
nio Artful: we need games and we need altruistic spirit isnt it contructive?
nio Artful: or is there a balanced way to view it

nio Artful: a new philoshophy of gaming
 

nio Artful: i feel that we lack that philoshophy up to now
Bertram Jacobus: the dalai lama says . "altruism is only the more intelligent form of egoism" (!) ... ;-)
nio Artful: i agree
Zen Arado: maybe for most of us
--BELL--
Zen Arado: most of the time
nio Artful: i have to know that i need you more than my egoistic shelf thinks.....and i need to open my heart and feel your needs too
nio Artful: to feel your needs mine
Zen Arado: I think there are degrees of unselfishness
Zen Arado: more is better even if you aren't truly altruistic
nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
nio Artful: as there are degrees of self awareness and counsiusnes
Bertram Jacobus: and may be, that all is, because we develop in life, generally ... and only if that found to an end, other forms then competition and similar may become possible ...
nio Artful: paralel things
Zen Arado: so we as we practice we become more natural and inselfish
Zen Arado: if we can see through the ego self
Zen Arado: some of our selfishness disappears
nio Artful: what is the ego shelf?
nio Artful: in breaf
Zen Arado: it is only protectiveness anyway
Zen Arado: it is the false sense of 'I' we build
nio Artful: in which way falce?
Zen Arado: because it isn't our true self
Bertram Jacobus: feeling apart , going not deep enough
Zen Arado: it is like a mechanism for self survival
nio Artful: ~',','Oh..kay..kay..kay',','~
nio Artful: and where is our true self?
Zen Arado: it spearates us from others too
Bertram Jacobus: deeper

Zen Arado: it is what we are at base
 

Bertram Jacobus: wider, too
Zen Arado: the rest is a false construction
nio Artful: why we dont feel that deeper?
Zen Arado: useful maybe but false
Zen Arado: fear
Bertram Jacobus: the question "why" in the end only leads to infinity ...
nio Artful: FEAR
Zen Arado: I think so
nio Artful: i agree
nio Artful: is the first step of losing our self
nio Artful: why?
Bertram Jacobus: why what plz ? :-)
nio Artful: why fear is a step to lose our self
Zen Arado: it is seeing the fear and protectiveness
Zen Arado: and eventually being able to be more open
Zen Arado: when you see more clearly you see you don't need it so much
Zen Arado: just awareness dispels fear
Bertram Jacobus: wb adoro - that was a fast meal !? ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: and hello cal ! :-)
adoro Rhapsody: yes the meal is not ready yet
Zen Arado: wb Adoro
Zen Arado: Hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hey hello everyone :)
adoro Rhapsody: so i can be here a while

nio Artful: when we fear we have 2 posibilities 1 to stay awake in hear and now and face the problem with skils and faith and patient spirit or to PAIN and decrise our consiousnes as defent in order not to feal that anoying emotion of fear
nio Artful: hi..
Calvino Rabeni is listening for the second possibility
nio Artful: if we are not educated to handle uncertaines and fears we lose our self
Calvino Rabeni: yes, true
Calvino Rabeni: it's a learnign
Calvino Rabeni: How can one do that, I wonder?
nio Artful: do what /
nio Artful: ?

Zen Arado: can you learn in advance how to cope with all situations?
 

Calvino Rabeni: be educated to handle uncertainties and fears
Calvino Rabeni: No zen
Calvino Rabeni: but can be more flexible
Zen Arado: I don't think so either
Calvino Rabeni: broadened capacities
Zen Arado: it's more about gradually openning
nio Artful: an idea is to first see what is realy importand as need
Zen Arado: opening
adoro Rhapsody: when u have a more divers reportoire of reactions
Calvino Rabeni: maybe it would be good to give up, for all time, the idea of final answers and solutions
Calvino Rabeni: in favor of keeping ones wits in the moment
adoro Rhapsody: you can survive better
nio Artful: if i afraid to lose tooo many things i have less posibilities to keep my self
Zen Arado: everything as it arises
Bertram Jacobus: i like the sentence : "the bad thing about experiences is, that we all that only get it after we had needed it" ! ;-)
adoro Rhapsody: sure
nio Artful: yes..
Calvino Rabeni: "experience is the ability to recognize mistakes when you make them again"
adoro Rhapsody: but with a flight simulatur you can anticipate
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: but that is very profane and also a bit with a twink meant ...
Calvino Rabeni: Our minds are built-in flight simulators created by nature
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: and how about intuïtion ?
adoro Rhapsody: and the right feeling
adoro Rhapsody: the fingeszpitzengefühl ?
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! anticipating is a real tricky thing or method ! ;-)
adoro Rhapsody: why tricky ?
Calvino Rabeni: nio, I'm hoping I remembered myself during that 90-second pause
Zen Arado: if you develop wisdom you can cope better
adoro Rhapsody: well now i am called to eat
adoro Rhapsody: bye everybody
Zen Arado: yes - time I had dinner too
Calvino Rabeni: ... breakfast :)
Bertram Jacobus: to me - those are also methods or insights which appear from being aware of circumstances of the presence adoro ...
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: bye for now
Bertram Jacobus: bye zen ! ...
nio Artful: we need food clothes and a place to live...we need a purpose in life friends love...so an idea is to try with small efforts and responsibility to have a moderate quantity of them as we increas our background of succesful atempts we have more comfidence ....but this is our part only we need more............GOVERMENT SCIENCEE ...AND OTHER PEOPLE RESPONSIBILITY AS WE TOLD IN PAST AGAIN
Calvino Rabeni: Government science won't work (in my opinion) if there's not a base of developed consciousness in the people
nio Artful: i agree
Calvino Rabeni: Same idea - morality cannot be legislated into existence
nio Artful: and for that i talk for a perfect goverment and science
nio Artful: holonic ideas
nio Artful: holons
Calvino Rabeni: but what would that be, except an expression of perfect humans?
Calvino Rabeni: the holons work together at different levels
Calvino Rabeni: there's no way to impose an order at one level and have it control the others
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll take a braek - ty all and have a good time ! +wave* ...
nio Artful: i believe in GOD he has both of them POWER LOVE SCIENSE AND ABILITY TO LEAD
Calvino Rabeni: TC Bertram, bye :)
Bertram Jacobus: ty ... :-)
nio Artful: WE UP TO NOW PREFER TO BECOME GODS ALONE
Calvino Rabeni: sure maybe nio, but isn't it up to people to pay attention to that?
nio Artful: AND WE have the results we have
nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
nio Artful: it is
Calvino Rabeni: Well evidently there's a little lucifer in all of us
nio Artful: but.....
nio Artful: yes..
nio Artful: sometimes i get out of my door and
nio Artful: a spider net is braking at my face as i pass
nio Artful: that insect dont know that a biger reality desides for that space
nio Artful: so she makes a net in wrong place
Calvino Rabeni: Or doesn't decide, as the case may be
nio Artful: metapho
nio Artful: metaphor
nio Artful: sure\
Calvino Rabeni: You think belief is important, I will hazard to guess?
nio Artful: it is writen by the creator that he wil bring his goverment in a proper time when it will be profane to all that we canot lead our self succesfully ...so if we make our palnts we may decide to make them in harmony with the greater reality that is leading the univerce...
nio Artful: if we do that we will not lose our NET
nio Artful: our plike the spider i mean at my door
nio Artful: like the spider i mean at my door
--BELL--
nio Artful: we have to make our plant and constructions in harmny with the greater reality that leads universe
nio Artful: he-she IS our first self
nio Artful: we there decided at Start to repeat our self here and every where
nio Artful: plant=plans
nio Artful: we there have a plan to put order again in earth
nio Artful: we have let our self here to experiment and see that we need our HEAD -first self- to survive and develop
nio Artful: succesfully
Calvino Rabeni: It looks to me like order plays a big part in your outlook, nio
nio Artful: please say in more simple words
Calvino Rabeni: you believe in order
nio Artful: no
Calvino Rabeni: ?
nio Artful: in a moderate state
Calvino Rabeni: ok
nio Artful: but closer to order
Calvino Rabeni: so are we not always, in a moderate state?
nio Artful: we can go closer to order
Calvino Rabeni: how close, and what determines that?
nio Artful: totaly order is not the goal
Calvino Rabeni: true
nio Artful: our first self has told
nio Artful: .....i work and my father is working
nio Artful: so our first selfs have to work
Calvino Rabeni: you have a cosmology
Calvino Rabeni: a mythic idea
Calvino Rabeni: of what has happened to the creation over time
nio Artful: i share my belifes
nio Artful: but i am open to new ideas
nio Artful: as someone can be
Calvino Rabeni: That's a nice statement
nio Artful: we dont have n eternity to decide neither ..
Calvino Rabeni: Some people believe, that belief is important
nio Artful: one need in life
nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
nio Artful: ..
nio Artful: if there is no god
Calvino Rabeni: what do you think of the idea of a self-organizing universe, of emegent order and autopoeisis?
nio Artful: we are more easy to survive if we cultivate faith and confidence to our developings skills
Calvino Rabeni: I agree with that statement
Calvino Rabeni: but maybe the belief in god undermines faith and confidence in developing skills
Calvino Rabeni: not necessarily
nio Artful: i believe that the core of that you just described has consious -the total one- and i call it .....our first self god jehova
Calvino Rabeni: if that is true, then it would be inside all of us and in each part
--BELL--
nio Artful: sure
nio Artful: but the periferals units has no the same capacity in a pc network with a strong core ...and it is great if they are conected with the core..
nio Artful: they extend their capabilities
nio Artful: we need our core
Calvino Rabeni: I agree, but where is it?
nio Artful: we need our core self even his existance is in us
Calvino Rabeni: In a network there's no controller and scripter of everything
Calvino Rabeni: a network is strong because there is no central controlling unit
Calvino Rabeni: that's how for instance the internet works
nio Artful: in a network interacting is importand
Calvino Rabeni: yes
nio Artful: but your pc and mine need the big interner constructions that make this possible
nio Artful: but there are core constructions that make this posible to us
nio Artful: we canot ignore them
Calvino Rabeni: All those do is pass information
Calvino Rabeni: and there is of course the design aspect
nio Artful: but theis capabilities are far away biger than our pc
nio Artful: their
nio Artful: we need them
Calvino Rabeni: but the intelligences who created those designs are many people working together spread through the world, cooperating and competing in a chaotic way
nio Artful: and ofcourse we already feel that in web there must be low
Calvino Rabeni: that's how network intelligence works
nio Artful: our internet creates alot of troubles because of the lack of central control
nio Artful: ethical ones i mean
nio Artful: and there are eforts to that way
nio Artful: to make a internet low i mean to control the prosess
nio Artful: but
nio Artful: when i talk for god
nio Artful: ...
nio Artful: god is open to ideas
nio Artful: <<<<<<<<<< L O L - L O L - L O L - L O L >>>>>>>>>>
nio Artful: he have let us to experiment
Calvino Rabeni: thank goodness for that :)
nio Artful: he-she
Calvino Rabeni: Nio, I have some work to do - I'm starting to multi-task here
nio Artful: the central self is out of gendr
nio Artful: gender
nio Artful: ~',','Oh..kay..kay..kay',','~
Calvino Rabeni: And don't quite have the attention this conversation deserves :)
Calvino Rabeni: But it is good to see you here :)
Calvino Rabeni: and yesterday
nio Artful: sure
Calvino Rabeni: So let us continue later
nio Artful: i want to see the truth
Calvino Rabeni: I know
nio Artful: i canot see if i am wrong if i dont share my beliefes
Calvino Rabeni: I find that a courageous statement in a way
nio Artful: i dont want to believe something that finaly will be found lies
nio Artful: so if we hide our ideas we have more posibilities to become like lakes with no fresh new clear water
nio Artful: how we call them?
Calvino Rabeni: a swamp or bog?
nio Artful: marsh?
Calvino Rabeni: stagnant
nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
nio Artful: we need fresh rivers passing through our brains
nio Artful: and dialog is usefull for that
Calvino Rabeni: I surely agree in those two things

nio Artful: some people dont talk about politics or religion because this causes problems in relation but i feel this is dangerous as a culture and habit
--BELL--
nio Artful: we have to talk about them in a respectfull way
Calvino Rabeni: I agree, it's a problem not to talk, or to talk in a coercive way
nio Artful: is like not to go out of our house because a car can kill us
nio Artful: we already lost the game of life in this way stay in our house for ever

Calvino Rabeni: What is the most useful way to tak about religion or politics?
nio Artful: listen
nio Artful: *$* LoL *$*
nio Artful: i need to knew what my co speaker believe
nio Artful: and how that effects to his life practicaly and to his comynity
nio Artful: so i have to listen
nio Artful: something that was always dificult with you my friend
Calvino Rabeni: well also it depends on what you will do with the information
Calvino Rabeni: what is your goal or agenda
nio Artful: i have good intences
Calvino Rabeni: Yes? (smiles)
nio Artful: subjective? lol...
nio Artful: if someone has the truth
Calvino Rabeni: And I take your point about difficulty seeing my beliefs
nio Artful: you told me only for your 4 road axplorations and ken wilber
nio Artful: i also see that you are very informated
Calvino Rabeni: I could give you a very long list of different things .... then my views would be a synthesis
nio Artful: and i like you
Calvino Rabeni: which doesn't make it easy to understand by looking at the list
Calvino Rabeni: likewise Nil
Calvino Rabeni: *Nio :)
Calvino Rabeni: On everything I've learned or studied, there is a true part and a false part
nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
Calvino Rabeni: and none of them has the "truth"
nio Artful: if there is no god we have no too much hope
nio Artful: we die soon
nio Artful: i am happy that i know that my existance re-emerge trough every new life

Calvino Rabeni: What if, you could see both sides of that issue
nio Artful: in different forms ofcoarse
nio Artful: pl explain me what you mean
Calvino Rabeni: And in terms of learning, it might be worthwhile to look into the less favored possibility
Calvino Rabeni: for example, to sacrifice one's beliefs
Calvino Rabeni: and see if they can manage for themselves
Calvino Rabeni: So what if people can hope, and things can work out, without a god?
Calvino Rabeni: See because in a way, this makes a connection between god, and the needs of people
nio Artful: i am happy that every possible choise has been taken in earth by our repeated diferentieted self
Calvino Rabeni: it's like love
nio Artful: i am realy happy that i live in other bodies as atheist
Calvino Rabeni: love isn't about getting needs met
Calvino Rabeni: and yet, it does meet needs
Calvino Rabeni: the thing you said earlier seems profound
nio Artful: please use more simple sentences for me
Calvino Rabeni: I like what you said
nio Artful: explain me this again
nio Artful: love isn't about getting needs met [09:27] Calvino Rabeni: and yet, it does meet needs [09:27] Calvino Rabeni: the thing you said earlier seems profound [09:27] nio Artful: please use more simple sentences for me [09:28] Calvino Rabeni: I like what you said
Calvino Rabeni: "every possible choice has been taken by our ... differentiated self"
nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
Calvino Rabeni: Good thing to think about
nio Artful: so we have a big background of results of any attempt
Calvino Rabeni: And the choices CONTINUE to be made - it is not only in the past
--BELL--
nio Artful: to see the truth of the results
Calvino Rabeni: The lessons are yet to be learned
nio Artful: i agree
nio Artful: they continue
nio Artful: yes...
nio Artful: i make in this body this choise to believe in god because ihave the clues
nio Artful: but ...
nio Artful: i am happy because in every other bodie i know that i try other ways
nio Artful: i feel that this is an importand trick that our first self uses also to handle uncertainess
Calvino Rabeni: That's distributed intelligence
nio Artful: i believe that you are every one you sdee in earth and every spirit
nio Artful: from god to devil
nio Artful: we are them
nio Artful: but diferentietd acording our choises and our circumstanses\
nio Artful: so facing the uncertainess ...
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe "devil" is just the part of the thinking process we don't understand, or don't like, because it makes the mistakes
Calvino Rabeni: but might be somewhat grateful the mistakes are made
Calvino Rabeni: because otherwise there would be no learning and intelligence
nio Artful: i respect him even i dont want to imetate him
Calvino Rabeni: That seems sensible
nio Artful: i know that in god and in devil is the only ONE
nio Artful: the one who is in you and me too
Calvino Rabeni: But because there's "devil" in each of us (?)
Calvino Rabeni: It's good to work with it
Calvino Rabeni: And not turn away
nio Artful: if we make wrong decisions we are like a boat that even with a 1 meter away finaly gets thousand miles awy of the goal
nio Artful: if my existance becomes painfull and bring to others pain to .....i lets say become devil
nio Artful: in a permanent way painfull i mean and bad
nio Artful: no curently
nio Artful: we are the devil there
nio Artful: we are the god there
nio Artful: and the god to
nio Artful: but curently we are here in this body
nio Artful: too
nio Artful: and we have to decide what we want to emetate
nio Artful: mimic
nio Artful: or do our own new style of choise
Calvino Rabeni: I understand but don't agree that much with the metaphors

Calvino Rabeni: I don't think the boat can keep going forever in the wrong direction
Calvino Rabeni: and I don't think someone can become a devil in a permanent way
 

nio Artful: nice
nio Artful: you mean that a devil can make up his mind?
Calvino Rabeni: therefore it's not so important to avoid mistakes in the beginning
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: and the changes happen anywhere along the "journey"
nio Artful: the reality is to hard kalvino
nio Artful: we built our self
Calvino Rabeni: on a day by day basis people are always balanced dynamically somewhere between really bad and really good choices
Calvino Rabeni: that's life - life lives on the edge of chaos, not in the realm of static perfection
Calvino Rabeni: it is like the Goldilocks story
nio Artful: tone who destroy his self with drugs make changes to his bodie importand ones

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Not too hot .... not too cold .... just right.
nio Artful: these changes many times have no retiurn
nio Artful: no return
Calvino Rabeni: Just right is neither randomness nor static perfection
nio Artful: understand/
nio Artful: ?
nio Artful: 'we make up our mind but as someone told before is too late
Calvino Rabeni: Say more ?
Calvino Rabeni: What could be "too late"?
nio Artful: do you know therapists that lose any hope to cure a psihopathetic guy with no sence of shame?
nio Artful: he has created a type of existance that cnot be cured
nio Artful: god in bible says that the human beings are in a terrible situation of consiousnes that is hopless for the god himself too
nio Artful: to cure us
nio Artful: so it is told by god that only few will find the road that is hard to follow
nio Artful: <<<<<<<<<< L O L - L O L - L O L - L O L >>>>>>>>>>
nio Artful: and the most of us we will be recicled
Calvino Rabeni: I can see some truth in that, as a metaphor
Calvino Rabeni: but, now I must go, Nio
nio Artful: sory for that recicle is my humor
nio Artful: ~',','Oh..kay..kay..kay',','~
nio Artful: ty
Calvino Rabeni: Sure :)
Calvino Rabeni: Take care, be well :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye
adoro Rhapsody: bye