2010.09.24 07:00 - Dynamic Models of Reality

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was joined for this session by Bleu, Zen, Eden, Alfred, and Susan. As this session follows the early morning Time Session, we started from within a boundary .

We share with Eden a piece of the ups/downs experience of having a wallet stolen and then found with 'some things' in tact but others forever gone.. the traumatic feeling of that. :( Then Susan starts off our conversation, by answering my request for elaboration on an idea she'd introduced in the earlier session:

Susan Aloix: well there are times when i feel the loss of separation...and i am one with the sunset eliza.......or one with another
Eliza Madrigal: so there in that 'place' Susan.... say more? 

In Part II of the session, we consider philosophy, ordinary mind, psychology, satori, and groundlessly 'trying on' one another's models of reality...

Vector Marksman: I must leave_ linear time calls:) I hope to come back.
Darren Islar: need to go, sorry to say :)
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Bye to those who must go...
Hana Furlough: i should get going too
SophiaSharon Larnia: :0 Bye Victor, thanks
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)***
Darren Islar: yes the clocks trikes :)
Hana Furlough: bye everyone and happy day
Eliza Madrigal: Glad you came Vector
Bleu Oleander: bye to those going :)
Eliza Madrigal: See you again
Fefonz Quan: have a good time, all leavers :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Hana
Bleu Oleander: have a good "time"
Zen Arado: bye to those leaving
Eliza Madrigal: :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Hana :)
Eliza Madrigal: the boundary....
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: the edge of time
Alfred Kelberry: ok, it's going back to "normal" now :)
Fefonz Quan: and a wonderful weekend to all of you. good bye
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef :) Namaste
Fefonz Quan: (waves)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye :) Fef
Alfred Kelberry: fefy :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to go too, Ive missed you all and hope to see ya soon

Susan Aloix: well in that place eliza.........the fluidity of movement between self and other bursts into its own *oneness*......as though both inhabit the other....onesness......not experienced all the time...but we certainly have those moments

Eliza Madrigal: So this boundary... third place...it seems like potential
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon :)
Eliza Madrigal: miss you too
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) b4n
Zen Arado: bye Sharon
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed, Susan!
Susan Aloix: yes brilliant word *potential* eliza.....

Eden Haiku: Someone just called. Found my wallet. With no money but cards, Will get it back at 5 o'clock. At least I won't have to get a new driver's licence and health insurance card.

Eliza Madrigal: So this is actually interesting in the context of Eden's experience too...
Eden Haiku: I cancelled all other cards already.
Bleu Oleander: great Eden
Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Glad for that Eden!
Zen Arado: that's some relief Eden
Alfred Kelberry: oh, eden... you lost it?
Susan Aloix: good to hear eden
Eden Haiku: Some, yes :)

Eliza Madrigal: this idea of invasion of space... blind time
Eden Haiku: Was stolen Alfred. Horrible feeling...
Eliza Madrigal: hidden potential
Alfred Kelberry: eden, sorry about that...
Eden Haiku: My purse was on the ground. And I was distracted.
Susan Aloix: (say more eliza please re. the context of edens experience?)
Alfred Kelberry: where did it happen?

Eliza Madrigal: Well, musing on the idea that Eden was distracted... but not that she 'shouldn't have been' or was doing anything 'wrong'....
Eliza Madrigal: there was a blind spot
Eliza Madrigal: someone crossed a boundary that was kind of taken for granted as being there...
Eliza Madrigal: and that is unnerving
Eliza Madrigal: edgy
Bleu Oleander: one's blind spot is another's opportunity
Eliza Madrigal: shakes us up

Zen Arado: wonders where his blind spots are
Eliza Madrigal: saws off our branches... causes us to question
Zen Arado: should ask others maybe
Bleu Oleander: points out how small our windows of attention really are

Eliza Madrigal: so in a positive sense, we think there are boundaries between us and hm... a sunset :)

Eden Haiku: Yes, and it seems there is an epidemic of pickpocket in that area this summer...
Zen Arado: true Bleu
Bleu Oleander: "true Bleu" .... I like that :)
Zen Arado: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I shared a little sieve story the other night... that a friend gave me....
Eliza Madrigal: thought about it again when we were talking about the ocean...
Alfred Kelberry: eden, just out on the street?
Zen Arado: listens for Eliza's story
Eliza Madrigal: Short... don't worry:

the teacher asks his students how to hold the ocean in a sieve...
after much back and forth among them,
he picks it up and tosses it into the ocean.
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Susan Aloix: well..yeah its certainly the negative aspect of it eliza...i was talking more about the place of being seen deeply by nature or another in a positive light......where we are able to fully embody anothers intentions ...and they ours.........these moments when positve are places where we have transcendent experiences of *oneness*
Bleu Oleander: :)

Eden Haiku: No in a coffee shop Alfred. Sorry, so many things to organize now, I,m not really here. Have to call back the police station. Sorry for focusing only on that. Will see you later guys :) Bye for now.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Eden :)
Susan Aloix: bye eden
Bleu Oleander: bye Eden ... take care
Zen Arado: is pondering Eliza's story
Zen Arado: with ponderous mind ...
Eliza Madrigal: I appreciate that deeply Susan, re oneness...
Zen Arado: bye Eden

Eliza Madrigal: When I asked my friend what the story meant to him, he said something to the effect that his 'stuff' was spread around in that kind of expansiveness....
Eliza Madrigal: couldn't hold on to it
Susan Aloix: a place where there are no boundaries......
Eliza Madrigal: world without maps
Zen Arado: yes - like ungraspable reality
Zen Arado: flowing and changing
Eliza Madrigal: surging :)
Zen Arado: that too
Eliza Madrigal: was thinking of Eden's gorgeous poem....
Zen Arado: me too

Susan Aloix: love to hear her poem
Eliza Madrigal: I'm glad she put that in her time report... was tempted to ask her to share it verbally here
Singh Albatros: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Let me give you the link Susan...
Susan Aloix: thanks eliza
Susan Aloix: imma going to have to go after that
Eliza Madrigal: 2010/09/14: Eden Haiku

Eliza Madrigal: Okay Susan. Enjoyed your contributions today, thank you
Susan Aloix: ohh really wonderful poem

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: It isn't easy to talk about 'oneness' and interconnection... without flatlining and losing the sense of dynamic energy... so thank you
Singh Albatros: ty you all for a elevating and thoughful encounter
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Singh, glad you came. Would you like to conintue coming to the time sessions? perhaps be on the email list?
Zen Arado: bye Singh
Bleu Oleander: ty Singh ... bfn :)
Eliza Madrigal: if so, just send me your email via IM
Singh Albatros: perhaps the email list first
Eliza Madrigal: or 'pema pera'... yes that would be just fine, then you'd get a reminder
Eliza Madrigal: ty :)
Susan Aloix: My pleasure eliza......always fun to throw around thoughts in here....appreciated your questions and ideas....and everyones
Zen Arado: we appreciate yours too Singh
Singh Albatros: ty
Eliza Madrigal nods
Singh Albatros: ty all bb
Zen Arado: and Susan
Susan Aloix: bye bye all :)
Zen Arado: bye Susan
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Susan, See you again soon
Bleu Oleander: bye Susan, Singh :)
Susan Aloix: bye zen,...ty..see you soon eliza :)...bye Bleu

Eliza Madrigal: I'm not married to the topic but of course still interested. :) What else is on others' minds? hehe
Zen Arado: it's good not to cling to a topic :)
Zen Arado: I prefer the type of freewheeling discussions we have here
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal pictures wagon wheels flying all over the place
Zen Arado: I find philosophical discussion tedious now

Eliza Madrigal: I'm usually of the same mind, Zen... but there is something sort of shifting...
Eliza Madrigal: that I'm enjoying the 'tension' of things more in some way... or the 'not getting caught' in it, of it....
Bleu Oleander: hmmmm .... say more Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: It is fun as long as the point isn't lost...
Bleu Oleander: the point .... that is the point

Zen Arado: I get the feeling that philosophical debate is taking me further away from reality into abstruse and dubiuos conceptualizations....
Eliza Madrigal: maybe the way Pema in his report described getting down to *presence*... so whatever happens is happening... even conflict or distractions...
Eliza Madrigal: but presence seems the point... abiding in open presence....
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: instead of trying to freeze aand dissect little bits of it....

Eliza Madrigal: Yesterday in WoK, it was more of a philosophical discussion, or felt that way from 'within it' but if you read the whole thing... SUCH interesting ideas on the whole

Eliza Madrigal: If you let the bits, the stuff, spread out into the space...
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Zen Arado: you always manage to be so positive Eliza ...
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Glad it looks that way! haha
Eliza Madrigal: *everything* has to be practice though....
Eliza Madrigal: I just don't want to compartmentalize into 'only' talking about spiritual things but rather....
Eliza Madrigal: bring everything into the fire so to speak
Zen Arado: it's just different approaches to me
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: and some seem more fruitful than others

Zen Arado: and time is short
Zen Arado: or is it?
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Eliza Madrigal: !!
Zen Arado: :)

Zen Arado: I think I wasted too much of my life with philosophy already
Zen Arado: been there ..done that...
Zen Arado: don't want to be drawn into it again
Eliza Madrigal: If I felt a discussion was 'just' ego-massaging philosophy, then I'd disconnect pretty easily I think....
Eliza Madrigal: ie "look how much I know ABOUT such n such"
Zen Arado: there seems to be ego involved usually
Zen Arado: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: maybe its a question of ratios...
Zen Arado: and I don't feel inclined to have to read up about that stuff again

Bleu Oleander: traditional philosophy vs lived personal philosophies ...
Eliza Madrigal: YES!
Zen Arado: yes Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: >point<

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: What makes PaB different, is that... it is inclusive of any kind of discussion... even philosophical and 'what so n so said' but doesn't stop there
Bleu Oleander: that said, it is sometimes helpful to learn what others before you have thought

Zen Arado: is wondering about 'spiritual compartmentaization' and if he is falling into a trap with it
Eliza Madrigal: well, sometimes those discussions do get lost at a certain level though....
Eliza Madrigal: and I think you are protective about that Zen
Eliza Madrigal: which seems a really wonderful thing :)
Zen Arado: or I get lost you mean Eliza :)

Bleu Oleander: the question for me is does my personal philosophy agree with observations about reality? and does it help me to live my life in a better way

Eliza Madrigal: sometimes though, we stop listening to so n so, and replace them for a so n so who is more 'spiritual' seeming

Eliza Madrigal: Ah, like your excellent question earlier Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: the model
Zen Arado: a more pragmatic approach Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: (and no Zen I don't mean you I definitely mean we)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: and maybe I should be more practical too
Bleu Oleander: there is no theory-independent concept of reality?
Zen Arado: I think reality will always be theory independent
Eliza Madrigal: timelessly,
Eliza Madrigal: theories are given in time

Zen Arado: but that is a theory too I guess
Zen Arado: why do we theorise so much?
Zen Arado: must be our humanness

Bleu Oleander: so each model of reality, if it agrees with observation, is a good one?
Zen Arado: but still only a model

Eliza Madrigal: Pema gave me a funny analogy the other day, of 'ordinary mind loops of ideas'... as though there is Fox news always playing propaganda in the background... and we don't even hear it....
Bleu Oleander: we theorize in order to be in the world and with each other
Bleu Oleander: always only a model?
Zen Arado: but more than we actually need to maybe....
Eliza Madrigal: but when we know it is propaganda, there is room to change the channel to question to make comparisons.... to give space to other possibilities
Bleu Oleander: or maybe not
Zen Arado: because I think reality is ungraspable Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: none of them have to be 'right'
Alfred Kelberry: what? fox news?
Bleu Oleander: my point Zen exactly
Zen Arado: trouble is we believe and freeze our models
Eliza Madrigal: or can be right, yes
Bleu Oleander: just needs to be right for me .... or for you ..... or for us ....
Zen Arado: or for now...
Bleu Oleander: :)

Eliza Madrigal: Well, it is the ethics discussion also here.... ie skillful means. We can 'rehearse' what 'seems' right
Eliza Madrigal: in a given situation
Eliza Madrigal: but that exact situation is not what will come up
Zen Arado: exactly
Zen Arado: I mean....
Bleu Oleander: yes

Alfred Kelberry: eliza, can you explain what is "ordinary mind loops of ideas"?
Bleu Oleander: models need to be fluid
Bleu Oleander: dynamic
Eliza Madrigal: what we take for our own thoughts, Alfred....
Eliza Madrigal: not realizing we've picked stuff up
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: arguments we are having in our head without hearing it...
Zen Arado: but the nature of them is not that ?
Alfred Kelberry: like a tune that you heard on a radio?
Eliza Madrigal: yup!!
Zen Arado: any concept freezes things?

Bleu Oleander: don't like the phrase "ordinary mind" .... feels all minds are extraordinary!
Eliza Madrigal: Smiles @ Bleu!!
Alfred Kelberry: pema could just said that instead of cryptic looping minds :)
Eliza Madrigal: hah Alfred. Well, it was an analogy which really helped me

Alfred Kelberry: but what are our thoughts? how can you distinguish?

Zen Arado: 'ordinary mind' in Zen can mean an enlightened mind
Eliza Madrigal: ordinary mind is used in two ways I've heard in buddhist teachings... one like 'don't seek more than your perfectly fine ordinary mind'
Eliza Madrigal: naked mind
Zen Arado: to show that that too is 'ordinary'
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Alfred Kelberry: you can label any thought being "a tune on a radio"

Bleu Oleander: don't like the distriction of enlightened/non-enlightened minds
Zen Arado: me neither
Bleu Oleander: we are all enlightened is different ways
Zen Arado: who knows what enlightenment is?
Bleu Oleander: celebrate each others contributions

Eliza Madrigal: And another way, to discern between insightful thinking and a reasoning out of things... (in time)
Alfred Kelberry: bleu, i think we're "capable" of becoming enlightened
Alfred Kelberry: but seldom do
Bleu Oleander: I think we all are already Alf
Zen Arado: we are enlightened already

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: :)
Alfred Kelberry: then why meditate to reach what we already have?
Bleu Oleander: exactly Alf
Zen Arado: ha - that is a very famous question Dogen asked Alf
Alfred Kelberry: hmm...
Eliza Madrigal: question I ask every day, in meditation :)

Zen Arado: we meditate because we are enlightened
Zen Arado: and meditatiing is enlightenment
Bleu Oleander: meditation is a tool
Alfred Kelberry: what buddhist school says we're already enlightened?
Bleu Oleander: one of many tools
Zen Arado: Zen
Zen Arado: and others I think
Alfred Kelberry: zen? how about zazen and satori?
Zen Arado: it's our true nature
Zen Arado: we just cover it up with thinking
Bleu Oleander: thinking is enlightenment

Eliza Madrigal: yes... in a sense, when we say "Namaste" we are saying "I honor the Buddha in you"
Zen Arado: zazen is just another name for meditation
Zen Arado: satori is seeing our true nature

Eliza Madrigal: Satori seems a kind of space looking at space....
Alfred Kelberry: zen, i know that
Zen Arado: usually only glimpses
Eliza Madrigal: I was in a shoe store the first time I snapshotted this kind of glimpse...
Zen Arado: as if it is obscured
Alfred Kelberry: i think it's a matter of perspective
Eliza Madrigal: I was standing there and thought "Hey! the default looping thing isn't happening... Look! Quiet!" then, it was kind of undone....
Zen Arado: I only trying to explain what my conceptions of this are
Eliza Madrigal: but then I knew that... tasted that
Zen Arado: it isn't clear to me
Alfred Kelberry: since we reach enlightment *within* us, therefore we possess this quality
Zen Arado: as Eliza says = you have to taste it
Zen Arado: like trying to explain what strawberry ice cream tastes like
Eliza Madrigal: it wasn't something I was able to conjur... but flipped everything inside out.... to emptying rather than filling, in a way

Eliza Madrigal nods @ Alfred
Bleu Oleander: prefers chocolate icecream :)
Eliza Madrigal: but 'out there' isn't excluded
Eliza Madrigal: nor philosophy :)

Alfred Kelberry: ok, i see it now
Zen Arado: it's all part of it
Alfred Kelberry: it's often helpful to step back and see a different perspective :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
Bleu Oleander: I find that is always helpful Alf
Eliza Madrigal: try things on
Eliza Madrigal: different brains even
Zen Arado: I think we just practice and wait and see
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: that's my attitude anyway

Eliza Madrigal: if we aren't afraid of losing our 'selves', we can do that...
Eliza Madrigal: really try other views on
Bleu Oleander: empathy
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: imagination
Zen Arado: no two people see things in the same way anyway
Bleu Oleander: one of the great things that make us human
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes we share a glimpse together...
Zen Arado: cut off the branch we are sitting on
Zen Arado: ouch!
Eliza Madrigal: think that is what Susan was describing
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Zen
Eliza Madrigal: Ruthless Empathy!
Alfred Kelberry: yet so few people do that, which gives a lot of work for shrinks :)
Zen Arado: yep
Eliza Madrigal: :) Alfred
Eliza Madrigal: psychology isn't excluded either
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Alfred Kelberry: they basically say, go out and talk - be open :)
Bleu Oleander: ha!

Zen Arado: people seem to prefer to run around in mind circles
Eliza Madrigal: that's where the pauses come in :)
Alfred Kelberry: recursion :)

Zen Arado: we don't need shrinks - we just come here:)
Bleu Oleander: or anywhere people are having conversation
Eliza Madrigal: if it is a conversation...
Bleu Oleander: exactly

Alfred Kelberry: zen, i think everyone does in a way
Zen Arado: DIY shrinks
Eliza Madrigal: I went to a wonderful therapist for a year... Zen meditation guy as it turns out but didn't 'tell' me that ...
Eliza Madrigal: it was traditional therapy but basically, he made space for me... a sacred open place
Eliza Madrigal: that's all :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Zen Arado: wonderful Eliza
Zen Arado: wasn't my experience
Eliza Madrigal: it was something I couldn't give myself at the time
Zen Arado: I went to a therapist for 2 sessions
Zen Arado: that was enough
Zen Arado: waste of time

Eliza Madrigal: what he couldn't give me... and this illustrates the 'difference' between contemplation and philsophy (for me)... was Groundlessness

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: when the student is ready .....
Zen Arado: the teacher will come....
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Zen Arado: you are my teachers
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Peer Review!
Zen Arado: God help me :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahahahah
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Zen Arado: sorry
Zen Arado: didn't want to massage your egos :)
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: I better go
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, me too
Bleu Oleander: thanks Zen and Eliza and Alf
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you guys. Interesting session :)
Zen Arado: thanks for interesting discussion
Bleu Oleander: bye all for now
Zen Arado: bye
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now. Appreciate you Much _/!\_
Alfred Kelberry: a good talk as always :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, glad you've been coming Alfred :))
Alfred Kelberry: bye leggy blonde :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now ;-)