The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Druth Vlodovic, Riddle Sideways and myself.

Nothingness:

Zen Arado: Hi Druth :)
druth Vlodovic: hey zen
druth Vlodovic: how is life?
Zen Arado: okay I think
Zen Arado: I just got here because the region restarted
druth Vlodovic: ah
Zen Arado: I havejust moved to this slot
druth Vlodovic: lots of empty slots recently
Zen Arado: they usually have restarts on Wenesday here
Zen Arado: yes....
druth Vlodovic: you get to achieve "nothingness" without effort :)
Zen Arado: It's getting difficut to get guardians to fill slots
Zen Arado: :-)
Zen Arado: I don' know what nothingness is
Zen Arado: and I' not sre I want it :-)
Zen Arado: I thought the bell rang :)
druth Vlodovic: it did, but it never rang a second time
Zen Arado: it was another bell on my computer
druth Vlodovic: lol, multiple levbels of reality
Zen Arado: it was the wrong time for it
druth Vlodovic: oh, i heard it
Zen Arado: yep
Zen Arado: I am conditioned by the Bell of PAB
Zen Arado: when the bell rings I stop talking

Dropping and meditation:

druth Vlodovic: I started doing the dropping thing on an hourly basis
druth Vlodovic: I got a weatchj that beeps on the hour
Zen Arado: very good
druth Vlodovic: but I get nothing from it
druth Vlodovic: when I stop I just stop
Zen Arado: what do you expect to get?
druth Vlodovic: people talk about getting random thoughts and such
druth Vlodovic: I don't get anything, no thoughts, emotions etc
Zen Arado: I'd prefer my own meditation practice
druth Vlodovic: sun says "hi" :)
druth Vlodovic: what do you do?
Zen Arado: say Hi back
Zen Arado: :)

Zen Arado: I just sit for half n hour in the morning
Zen Arado: sometimes longer
druth Vlodovic: I tried that a few times
Zen Arado: sometimes twice a day
druth Vlodovic: my place isn't really set up for it
Zen Arado: meditation is getting away from our usual way of thinking about doing A to get B
Zen Arado: basically it is sitting quietly doing nothing
Zen Arado: which we find hard to do
druth Vlodovic: "we" lol
druth Vlodovic: I "do nothing" all day while I'm working
Zen Arado: well most people do I think
Zen Arado: well, you are still thinking and watching things I'm sure
druth Vlodovic: depends on your definition of "doing" I suppose
Zen Arado: I used to sit in front of a big control panel in a power station doing nothing most of the time
druth Vlodovic: when I did meditate it seemed rather typical of the mode I'm in when I'm really bored
Zen Arado: just making small adjustments
Zen Arado: I think our minds want to be busy
druth Vlodovic: mine is content just to sit there
Zen Arado: but I'l bet you are still planning and thinking
druth Vlodovic: in fact I get antsy if I spend too long without a break lol
Zen Arado: meditation lets you see that more clearly
druth Vlodovic: no, just sitting
druth Vlodovic: planning and thinking are more like work
druth Vlodovic: or play
druth Vlodovic: I think for fun, but I often need a catalyst
Zen Arado: but all these emotions and states of mind like boredom
Zen Arado: are good to investigate
Zen Arado: because we think we know what they are
druth Vlodovic: I wonder if I'd be more successful if my mind did work all the time
Zen Arado: maybe you don't realise just how busy it ? G
druth Vlodovic: maybe other people, finding a half hour, will plan their retirement or an outing with friends
Zen Arado: We seem to spend most of our time planning the future
Zen Arado: or reminiscing about the past
druth Vlodovic: "we" again :)
Zen Arado: yes sorry
Zen Arado: but it does seem to be a general thing
druth Vlodovic: I got told off recently for "talking for other people"
Zen Arado: according to meditation teachers
Zen Arado: tell me about it!
druth Vlodovic: I was completely confused since where I am it's actually polite to do that
Zen Arado: I'm ony talkng abot meditation in general
Zen Arado: and what seems to be the general experience of people
Zen Arado: I think neurocience backs this up

'Success':

druth Vlodovic: maybe that's why i'm not really very successful in many ways
Zen Arado: how do you mean?
druth Vlodovic: I don't fit the usual mode of modern methods of existence
druth Vlodovic: of course, it could just be me feeling sorry for myself :)
Zen Arado: If you start meditating for long periods, you start to see through a lot of the delusions I think
druth Vlodovic: I feel cut off from life a lot, I wonder if it isn't because i'm not always thinking, analyzing etc
Zen Arado: maybe success is one of them
Zen Arado: what is success?
druth Vlodovic: I see people not only seeing the world around them but putting names and values on things, they know the make and model and year of every car in the parking lot, for instance
Zen Arado: Most pople sem to equate it with money and material things
Zen Arado: the incessant labelling and conceptualising
Zen Arado: comparing with others
druth Vlodovic: "everything in moderation" I guess
druth Vlodovic: but if people specialize and practice a lot they can get seriously good at things
Zen Arado: seeing only the surface value of things
druth Vlodovic: even forget that there is effort iinvolved
Zen Arado: oh yes, and why not?
Zen Arado: My problem was always that I never knew what I really wanted to do
druth Vlodovic: "was" lol
druth Vlodovic: how did you solve that?
Zen Arado: still is I guess :-)
Zen Arado: I never did :-)

Riddle Sideways: Hi Zen and dRuth
Zen Arado: wb Riddle :)
druth Vlodovic: hi riddle
Zen Arado: we are talking about success

Choosing likes and dislikes:

druth Vlodovic: one thing I find is that if you don't evaluate everything then one thing is a good as another
Riddle Sideways: the WebEx got disconnected by somebody at the meeting table
Zen Arado: what ever it is?
druth Vlodovic: it becomes difficult to decide if you even like something
Zen Arado: Can we decide to like something?
druth Vlodovic: we train ourselves
Zen Arado: I thin we do or we don't
druth Vlodovic: an infant will think that poop is as fun as playdough, but most adults don't
Zen Arado: but what gives you the impulse to want to do that?
druth Vlodovic: because they train themsevels to think of it as "yucky"
Zen Arado: Yes :-)
Riddle Sideways: or did adults train them
druth Vlodovic: I read a lot of michael moorcock, who often plays with societies where there is no real morality
Riddle Sideways: would not be yucky unless told so
druth Vlodovic: the whole "pain and pleasure are a matter of preference" thing
druth Vlodovic: then I sit and say "why do I like sci-fi?"
Zen Arado: yes, and we can't govern this I thik
druth Vlodovic: and in odd moments the only answer I have is "because the sort of person I think I am likes sci-fi" lol
Riddle Sideways: all those sci-fi what-if stories
druth Vlodovic: we can
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: I loved sci-fi when was i my teens
Zen Arado: I was
Riddle Sideways: you still are zen
Zen Arado: heh
Zen Arado: 60 teens
Zen Arado: :)
druth Vlodovic: in the whole "nature versus nurture debate" I came down on the side of "people start with natural preferences but it is all mutable"
Zen Arado: I think nature nurture is a false dichotomy
Zen Arado: both are present and govern how we choose or make decisions
Zen Arado: I think

Labels and objectivity:

druth Vlodovic: labels, we use them to help us define things, but it is easy to forget that each label is just an invention, a convenience with no actual reality
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: and words are just sounds with no inherent meaning
druth Vlodovic: but useful
Zen Arado: and the labels separate things out of reality
druth Vlodovic: if we remove all labels we end up removing as well some of our advantages
Zen Arado: so we then think they are separate things
Zen Arado: yes it is useful
Zen Arado: we can use the labels but remember they are only labels?
druth Vlodovic: an idea with magic is that you can manipulate a thing by manipulating it's labels
druth Vlodovic: but all this is is a reflaction of the way we think
Zen Arado: Isn't that what mathematics does?
Zen Arado: Yes
druth Vlodovic: I think that when you get into "science" and especially "math" you are trying very hard to make the labels as specific as possible
Zen Arado: I alwas think of the way the ear immediately attaches an identity to a sound as soon as we hear it
druth Vlodovic: this same tendency is what often makes philosophy useless lol
Zen Arado: we can't just keep it as a sound
Zen Arado: why do you think that about philosophy Druth?
druth Vlodovic: well, people start trying to fix meanings to such things as morality
druth Vlodovic: they try to make it math
Zen Arado: Though I tend to agree
Zen Arado: yes
druth Vlodovic: but then instead of using observation they try to use reason
Zen Arado: they use logic on words
druth Vlodovic: so instead of it getting closer to reality it gets closer to preconception
Zen Arado: as words have a definite meaning
Zen Arado: as if *
druth Vlodovic: observation is moving closer to the world, reason is moving closer to your own mind
Zen Arado: it gives a false impression of precision?
druth Vlodovic: you can get really wonky results that only make sense if you divorce yourself from observation
Zen Arado: yes, but our mind is also part of the world

Zen Arado: In quantum theory there is something about the Observer always affecting the results
Zen Arado: We can't detach ourselves from the world
druth Vlodovic: "a scientist can never observe an animal, he can only observe an animal being observed by a scientist"
druth Vlodovic: but if you give up the attempt then the results get messy
druth Vlodovic: like a reporter giving up on producing the impossible "unbiased account"
Zen Arado: And science can't be objective because a scientist still has to choose what to investigate, and that choice is governed by all of his previous experiences and the culture he lives in
druth Vlodovic: it's not what you say that is dangerous, but the implications :)
druth Vlodovic: "if science can't be objective we can make up a fantasy and use that"
druth Vlodovic: I see that over and over :(
Zen Arado: True objectivity is impossible but we still have to do our best, recognising that
druth Vlodovic: lol, I have to go, people are bugging me
druth Vlodovic: have fun guys
Zen Arado: Okay Druth
Zen Arado: thanks for the coming :-)
druth Vlodovic: thanks for hosting :)
Zen Arado: byee
druth Vlodovic: cya riddle

Voice Misrecognition :) :

Zen Arado: I am still struggling with voice typing. It gets irritating when it puts in our instead of are etc
Zen Arado: :-)
Zen Arado: I trained it using JFK's inaugural speech the other day
Zen Arado: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."
Zen Arado: a great speech!
Riddle Sideways: sorry, was on conference call
Zen Arado: np
Riddle Sideways: that dictation seemed to work
Riddle Sideways: do you have to correct much before sending?
Zen Arado: yes, it knows that bit :-)
Zen Arado: sometimes yes
Zen Arado: it misses letters and spaces
Zen Arado: other times it is okay
Zen Arado: there is a little dictation box I can use and that is better
Zen Arado: but I hav to to bring it up each time
Zen Arado: the viewer doesn't seem to work fast enough to handle the speed of the typing
Zen Arado: if I type straight into the chat window
Zen Arado: but I m gettng the hang of it
Riddle Sideways: you have to paste everything?

Zen Arado: I'm trying to use the chat window for short sentences
Zen Arado: and use the dictation box for longer sentences
Zen Arado: I thought the problem was that the computer wasn't fast enough
Riddle Sideways: please keep me updated on how it works and tricks
Riddle Sideways: want to start using it too
Zen Arado: but I just got a new computer which has an i7 processor
Zen Arado: I have been using voice recognition for over 10 years
Zen Arado: But I still wouldn't bother with it except for long e-mails or writing
Riddle Sideways: and yet android voice seems to work better
Riddle Sideways: it is using the same dragon back there
Riddle Sideways: can't do long sentences either
Zen Arado: It's just that the fingers of my left hand are hard to open now
Zen Arado: it works very well in Mirosoft word
Zen Arado: it just doesn't work well in non-standard windows
Zen Arado: I have a version of Dragon software on my iPhone and it works quite well for long text messages
Zen Arado: my accent doesn't help either :-)
Riddle Sideways: :)
Zen Arado: anyway, I better go
Riddle Sideways: ok bye for now
Zen Arado: bye for now Riddle :-)