2013.10.10 19:00 - Universals, Knowledge etc

The Guardian for this meeting was druth Vlodovic. The comments are by druth Vlodovic.

Daedalus687 Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: :-)
Daedalus687 Resident: Hi there
druth Vlodovic: lol, funny to watch you typing with big mitts on
Daedalus687 Resident: Lol yea, it doesnt really look like typing does it
druth Vlodovic: have you been here before?
Daedalus687 Resident: I have a few times over the past few weeks yes.
Daedalus687 Resident: I like it
druth Vlodovic: ah good, saves me regaling you with dire warnings about the wiki
Daedalus687 Resident: I didn't think they were dire are they?
druth Vlodovic: "everything you say can and will be recorded for posterity..."
Daedalus687 Resident: Yea, its a little strange
druth Vlodovic: it's a subject we raise every blue moon or so in planning sessions :)
Daedalus687 Resident: So long as there is a justifiable reason for it
druth Vlodovic: science!
Daedalus687 Resident: lol
druth Vlodovic: most planned meetings in SL are posted some where on the web, afaik we're the only ones who make an issue of it
druth Vlodovic: what's your area of interest?
Daedalus687 Resident: Primarily Time/Space/Knowledge
druth Vlodovic: ohhhh
druth Vlodovic: we have a reading list somewhere
druth Vlodovic: in fact it was a book about something like that that inspired this place
Daedalus687 Resident: Play as Being is a phrase from that text.
druth Vlodovic: which I haven't read :-P
Daedalus687 Resident: Its not entirely necessary to. But it helps sometimes with some things
Daedalus687 Resident: Same could be said of most books I imagine.
druth Vlodovic: what is it about time\space\knowledge that gets your fancy?
Daedalus687 Resident: Well, specifically...it drives at the possibility of a different sort of language, a more universal and oracular one.
druth Vlodovic: oh?
Daedalus687 Resident: Yea, not much time is spent on it per se, but it suggests the possibility.
Daedalus687 Resident: If I spoke using the constituing elements of the text, it might sound like another language I suppose, but I dont know that that is indeed the type of language that is meant.
druth Vlodovic: ???
--BELL--
Daedalus687 Resident: Let me ask a question maybe...what is your idea of an oracular language that if spoken would be interpretable in some sense to a multitude of human beings?
druth Vlodovic: there seem two issues here
druth Vlodovic: oracular means predictive, which would need to be closely related to reality
druth Vlodovic: like math maybe
druth Vlodovic: interpretive to humans would need to be patterned after the human thought processes
Daedalus687 Resident: Hm..
Daedalus687 Resident: Would it be spoken?
Daedalus687 Resident: Could it be spoken maybe?
druth Vlodovic: speaking is only part of language
druth Vlodovic: gestures, facial expressions tone of voice
Daedalus687 Resident: Are those something different that language?
druth Vlodovic: it is peculiar listening to a language where inflection is used for meaning instead of emotional content
druth Vlodovic: depends on how you define language
druth Vlodovic: do you mean communication, or something more specific?
Daedalus687 Resident: I suppose I could separate out communication from language.
druth Vlodovic: usually language is considered a specific subset
druth Vlodovic: if I crook my finger at some one to say "come here" am I speaking?
Daedalus687 Resident: So we agree that communication is 'more basic' than language? Or is this misguided?
druth Vlodovic: sounds good to me
druth Vlodovic: we communicate with animals all the time and don't share common language
druth Vlodovic: or even common gestures
Daedalus687 Resident: Does one element of our shared agreement on definition of communication, as being defined as more basic than language, imply that there is something even more basic than communication?
druth Vlodovic: information processing I would suppose
Daedalus687 Resident: More basic than that?
druth Vlodovic: you can gain information about someone by looking at them that they may not be intending to broadcast
druth Vlodovic: more basic would be either sensing or thinking
Daedalus687 Resident: So-we havn't reached 'One', but so far we have: Language----Communication-----Information Processing-----Sensing....whats more basic than this?
druth Vlodovic: there is "communing" like when you sit quietly with a friend, enjoying their company
druth Vlodovic: more basic than this I don't know about
Daedalus687 Resident: Maybe I suggest that by the initial force of separating two terms that we 'create' a continuum where they may have been one to begin with?
druth Vlodovic: I'm not sure I follow
Santoshima Resident: greetings
Santoshima Resident: earthlings
druth Vlodovic: hey san
Daedalus687 Resident: Hi! :)
--BELL--
Santoshima Resident: good to see you both
Daedalus687 Resident: :)
Daedalus687 Resident: 4 is more than 2!
Daedalus687 Resident: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: Play as math today?
druth Vlodovic: [19:28] Daedalus687: Maybe I suggest that by the initial force of separating two terms that we 'create' a continuum where they may have been one to begin with?
druth Vlodovic: I suspect we are heading towards "all things are one thing, all times are one time"
Santoshima Resident: heloo Stevenaia
druth Vlodovic: hi stevenaia
druth Vlodovic: are we?
stevenaia Michinaga: evening
Daedalus687 Resident: Are we heading towards all things are one thing all times are one time?
Daedalus687 Resident: is that what you meant?
Santoshima Resident: just got here .. haven't a clue
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Santoshima Resident: oops wrong window :)
druth Vlodovic: I was asking if this was the basis of your philosophy
Santoshima Resident: you know what I mean
Santoshima Resident: guffaruffa
Santoshima Resident: please continue
Daedalus687 Resident: I was just pointing to the tendency that to structure one term as more basic than another runs into problems of infinite regress. But the supposition of all things are one and all times are one is also disconcerting in some ways.
druth Vlodovic: ah
druth Vlodovic: I was also discussing converging parallells, eg, sensing and thinking
druth Vlodovic: is infinite regress a problem?
Daedalus687 Resident: Maybe not druth
druth Vlodovic: I was more using umbrella terms to simplify, and hopefully clarify things
Santoshima Resident: disconserting in what way?
Daedalus687 Resident: In the sense that if all things are one, then no-things have to also be one.
Santoshima Resident: one what?
Santoshima Resident: {_
Santoshima Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: I admit to a bit of a reluctance when this idea comes up :/
Daedalus687 Resident: One being.
druth Vlodovic: it seems to ignore much of reality,pretty much by definition
Santoshima Resident: one
druth Vlodovic: what would be the nature of a language which is universal?
Daedalus687 Resident: Maybe we could refine the question before we try to answer.
druth Vlodovic: ok
Daedalus687 Resident: What-would-be-the-nature-of-a-language-which-is-universal-?
Daedalus687 Resident: Any 'problems' with this construction of the question?
Daedalus687 Resident: I suppose that assumes imperfection....
druth Vlodovic: I already asked if it must be universal to reality or the mind
druth Vlodovic: there are many parts of the question that can be dissected, you pick one this time :)
Daedalus687 Resident: lol...9 questions and 1 answer in this circuit..
druth Vlodovic: parallell linguistics doesn't exist yet, though SL debates are making good headway
Daedalus687 Resident: Ok...in the very act of articulating, have I already failed to make it universal?
druth Vlodovic: of course
Daedalus687 Resident: Well, I couldn't 'not' articulate.
Daedalus687 Resident: Then I would not exist as such
Daedalus687 Resident: Taking articulation to be even more broad than just speaking, but walking or sleeping or eating
druth Vlodovic: you couldn't transmit ideas without articulating
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: but we all hold some "inarticulate" ideas
Daedalus687 Resident: I feel as if I am monopolizing the conversation, I don't mean to.
druth Vlodovic: holding continuity across a drop is not only difficult, but perhaps counter-productive
Santoshima Resident: please excuse me, i feel the need to go use some power tools . a good evening to everyone
druth Vlodovic: please go on
stevenaia Michinaga: bye san, lol
druth Vlodovic: lol, have fun san
Daedalus687 Resident: :)
Daedalus687 Resident: What do you mean across a drop?
druth Vlodovic: the pauses are generally referred to as "drops"
Daedalus687 Resident: I thought thats what you meant.
druth Vlodovic: I finished my sentance before "dropping" but posted it after
Daedalus687 Resident: I think I realize something that I continually forget...that if I hold a position of owning knowledge...of thinking that I do in fact know, the greatness of totality is more shut out than if I opened more to the possibility that I dont know so much
druth Vlodovic: "holding it lightly" is another PaB trope
druth Vlodovic: you can know as long as you know you might not know
Daedalus687 Resident: Yea, I try to remind myself that these things will return
druth Vlodovic: do you need to define (articulate) yourself to exist?
Daedalus687 Resident: Maybe not. 'I' don't need to no.
Daedalus687 Resident: No pronouns could so much possibly
druth Vlodovic: I doubt I am universal even when I'm not articulate
druth Vlodovic: perhaps the separation from "universal" has a different source
Daedalus687 Resident: Or no source at all
druth Vlodovic: perhaps existence itself requires separation
Daedalus687 Resident: Oh yea, for sure!
druth Vlodovic: "Once all things were one thing, then we had the big bang!"
Daedalus687 Resident: When we were concieved we got dropped into the womb
Daedalus687 Resident: Its like a god said, hey you! it your turn to go to earth! lol
Daedalus687 Resident: I try to put my locatedness to that point in time sometimes.
Daedalus687 Resident: Like, the moment of my conception. But again I run into that problem of infinite regress
Daedalus687 Resident: So no source helps a bit
druth Vlodovic: "what did your face look like before your parents were born"
druth Vlodovic: a koan of some sort,you'd have to ask cal for it's source
Daedalus687 Resident: ?
druth Vlodovic: there is a group called "original face" which takes it's name from that quote in some manner
druth Vlodovic: I haven't deciphered it yet
Daedalus687 Resident: I am not familiar with 'koan' or 'cal'
druth Vlodovic: calvino is a member of PaB
stevenaia Michinaga: night all, be well
druth Vlodovic: koan I can't define properly right now
druth Vlodovic: 'night steve, thanks for enduring :)
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: a koan is supposed to make you stop and think
druth Vlodovic: "what did your face look like before your parents were born?"
druth Vlodovic: you ponder for a while and then learn from your thoughts
druth Vlodovic: as for me I get as far as "it didn't"
Daedalus687 Resident: ah
druth Vlodovic: spiritual philosophy isn't my strong point
druth Vlodovic: if your point of origin is your point of separation from the universal, isn't practicing universal things a betrayal of yourself?
Daedalus687 Resident: Maybe a remembering of it, not an actual state
druth Vlodovic: so for seeking understanding rather than finding a new existence
Daedalus687 Resident: An approximation of a higher place, where that place isnt higher...nor is it a place
Daedalus687 Resident: A Body of Knowledge that encompasses a unifying of subject and object...involving neither a subject nor an object, or even a unifying process
druth Vlodovic: most cultures think of their language as integral to their identity and would be offended by it's replacement by a "universal" one
Daedalus687 Resident: Optionally supplemental, not replacement I think
druth Vlodovic: 'k
Daedalus687 Resident: that last one is a quote, the body of knowledge part
Daedalus687 Resident: just to give props where props is due! lol
druth Vlodovic: I recognized its tone :)
druth Vlodovic: someday I'll buy that book and then read it and the unopened library waiting for me in my bedroom
Daedalus687 Resident: lol. I gotta say that it should really cost much...but, what do I know
Daedalus687 Resident: or cost anything*
druth Vlodovic: Pema has a workbook in the wiki along the same lines
Daedalus687 Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time
druth Vlodovic: lol,I haven't cracked that website in an age
druth Vlodovic: I should be careful saying it is along the same lines as this book I haven't read...
Daedalus687 Resident: Yea
druth Vlodovic: precision and it's expectation hampers communication to no end lol
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: you're coming apart :)
druth Vlodovic: ah well,I\m heading out
druth Vlodovic: a pleasure to talk to you
Daedalus687 Resident: wow thats to big..
Daedalus687 Resident: You too :)
druth Vlodovic: would make a good av on it's own