2013.10.13 13:00 - Love, friendship, gratitude and dropping definitions

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Zen Arado: Hi Aph:)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Zen
Zen Arado: nobody here?
Zen Arado: they were all at meeting earlier
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes I know - one I couldn't make- 7AM
Aphrodite Macbain: Were you there?
Zen Arado: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: How did it go?
Zen Arado: they all enjoyed it I think
Aphrodite Macbain: and you?
Aphrodite Macbain: what did you drop?
Zen Arado: I felt tired
Zen Arado: still do
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm sorry. Not sleeping?
Zen Arado: not well
Zen Arado: just get exhausted
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: Any solutions to this?
Zen Arado: one drawback of SL people don't see that I am severely disabled
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bruce
Zen Arado: Hi Bruce
Zen Arado: they might understand better
Zen Arado: why I get tired
Aphrodite Macbain: How would they act differently?
Zen Arado: shrug
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Busy Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Many helloes, Aph and Zen!
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Zen Arado: I try to do too much then run out
Zen Arado: of energy
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen is saying how hard it is for him these days, how tired he is
Zen Arado: old age too
Zen Arado: try to do things like someone younger
Aphrodite Macbain: We all share that one Zen!
Bruce Mowbray listens very carefully.
Bruce Mowbray: I have several friends who complain of chronic fatigue.
Aphrodite Macbain: What do you try and do that is too young Zen?

Bruce jumps into my pumpkin bumper car

Aphrodite Macbain: Have fun Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: I found it in my inventory

Bruce Mowbray: This is amazing!
Aphrodite Macbain: and thought I'd bring it out for Canadian Thanksgiving
Bruce Mowbray: just in time for American Halloween

Bruce Mowbray: too.
Aphrodite Macbain: and my birthday!
Bruce Mowbray: :)!

Aphrodite Macbain: Can you stop doing some things Zen?.
Bruce Mowbray ponders "stop doing some things."
Zen Arado: I get tired of analysis
Zen Arado: notice the word 'anal' in that word?
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)))
Aphrodite Macbain: I am in the middle of writing a paper on friendship for my course. Friendship as per Mencius, Aristotle, Rumi and Lucretius
Aphrodite Macbain: I like that kind of analysis
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Zen Arado: I used to
Bruce Mowbray: So, perhaps your brain is tired.... not just your body.

Bruce Mowbray loves Rumi's idea of friendship.
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you consider Rumi's idea of friendship?
Bruce Mowbray: INFINITE LOVE OF EVERYTHING.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Bruce Mowbray: Meeting in field beyond right-thinking and wrong-thinking....
Zen Arado: don't forget I did a philosophy degree and MA in it
Bruce Mowbray: DRINKING the fine wine with others... on all levels.
Bruce Mowbray: (enough?)
Aphrodite Macbain: "With friends you grow wings. Alone, you are a single feather in disgrace. With them you master the wind, but alone, you’re blown in all directions."
Aphrodite Macbain: Love it!

Zen Arado: just spinning concepts and ideas
Zen Arado: body tired = brain tired too
Bruce Mowbray: I have spun far too many ideas and concepts myself.
Aphrodite Macbain: I find that invigorating, not tiring
Aphrodite Macbain: saying the same old things is tiring
Zen Arado: they lead to contradictions in the end
Bruce Mowbray: I find all creative pursuits (whether philosophical or otherwise) to be invigorating.
Zen Arado: yes I found that a bit today
Aphrodite Macbain: contradictions are just koans (said she glibly)
Bruce Mowbray: Please say more, Zen....
Zen Arado: but everyone else enjoyed it
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps you made another painting today?
Zen Arado: yeh, but koans make you realize the contradictions
Zen Arado: that's what they are for
Zen Arado: to see the futility of concepts
Zen Arado: and trying to think out life
Bruce Mowbray: .... only, don't analyse the contradictions.....?
Zen Arado: and reduce it to a formula
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmmm.

Aphrodite Macbain: dropping analysing?
Zen Arado: the contradictions skew the futility
Zen Arado: yes
Bruce Mowbray: But isn't philosophy a matter of ideological formulae? sorry -- dropping now.
Aphrodite Macbain: the bell has rung...

Aphrodite Macbain: say more Bruce?
Zen Arado: the ego keeps wanting to understand and control
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands and listens....
Zen Arado: instead of dropping all that and just see and experience
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps our brain wants more action and has a hard time stopping
Zen Arado: looking for some ground to stand on
Bruce Mowbray: Is there some "happy middle" in which the analytical brain at the experiencing "self" can meet?
Zen Arado: ah that's it now
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: a field somewhere out beyond both (as Rumi says).
Zen Arado: well we still need it for everyday life
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- or the golden mean as Aristotle suggests :D
Zen Arado: but it will never understand ultimate mysteries I think
Zen Arado: but who knows
Zen Arado: that gets formulaic too
Aphrodite Macbain: apparently our left parietal lobe of our brain is where happiness resides
Bruce Mowbray: Is there anything -- ANY thing whatsoever that is NOT an ultimate mystery?
Zen Arado: the golden mean is a fallacy though
Aphrodite Macbain: listens to Zen

Zen Arado: sometimes we need to go to extremes

Aphrodite Macbain: why Zen?

Zen Arado: probably not Bruce
Zen Arado: but that's too scary
Bruce Mowbray: well, surely it is an abstract idea.... but so are planets in other galaxies.
Aphrodite Macbain: Not so abstract. Those are measurable.
Zen Arado: what are? what is 'abstract?
Bruce Mowbray: How about peasants in 3rd world countries, whom no one ever sees.....? but only imagines? Bruce Mowbray: are they also abstract?
Aphrodite Macbain: someone sees them- usually news cameras
Bruce Mowbray: "abstract" is beyond experience -- only a function of the analytical mind.
Aphrodite Macbain: planets in other galaxies are measurable Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: most of them are not seen even by news cameras.
Bruce Mowbray: so to me, they are abstractions.
Bruce Mowbray: unless somehow I find a window of compassion---
Bruce Mowbray: to look through.
Aphrodite Macbain: They exist in our minds until we meet them
Zen Arado: if we measure something it is not abstract?
Bruce Mowbray: and one of the things Rumi gives us is such a window.
Aphrodite Macbain: a window of love?
Zen Arado: 'man is the measure of all things'

Zen Arado: some Greek philosopher said
Bruce Mowbray: Protagoras?

Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, a window of love.
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what they thought...
Aphrodite Macbain: I am a widow of love. Giggles
Bruce Mowbray: I am capable of becoming a window of love....
Zen Arado: our tiny insignificant viewpoint

Aphrodite Macbain: but ourselves are all we have Zen
Bruce Mowbray: unfortunately, most of the time i have my blinds pulled down.
Bruce Mowbray: at least pulled down toward those who probably need my love the most.
Zen Arado: love just is
Zen Arado: whatever it is
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Bruce Mowbray sips gin.
Aphrodite Macbain: It has an effect on the way we see things Zen
Zen Arado: Cor. 13
Zen Arado: why separate it out?
Aphrodite Macbain: even if it's thru a glass darkly
Zen Arado: is  us
Bruce Mowbray: The "glass" is a mirror.
Zen Arado: or try to manufacture what we already are?
Aphrodite Macbain: Beings R us?
Zen Arado: be love
Zen Arado: or stop not being love
Bruce Mowbray: Love can only be a "being" -- not a thing....
Aphrodite Macbain: Manufacture or try and understand- sending out hypothesis after hypothesis
Zen Arado: or just stop
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Love is a way of being in the world.
Bruce Mowbray: Not a thing in the world.
Bruce Mowbray: or perhaps that is too abstract?
Zen Arado: you can't love everyone
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think so.
Bruce Mowbray: when I recall that every gesture of "love," I recall from others has always been an act
Aphrodite Macbain: It is an emotion made up of electronic particles, dendrons and axons
Zen Arado: love is abstract if we abstract it
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: not just a thought, or some useless object.
Zen Arado: it can be an expression
Bruce Mowbray: The gift without the giver.... is dead.
Zen Arado: or expressed
Aphrodite Macbain: It is a felt emotion in the body
Zen Arado: but still there anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: we don’t really "give" love
Aphrodite Macbain: we feel it
Aphrodite Macbain: in our biological body
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.. Ponders whether love that is not a two-way thing is really love -- maybe just a noble "hope."
Zen Arado: you can't make yourself love
Bruce Mowbray: right -- you cannot command love.
Zen Arado: all these things are two way
Aphrodite Macbain: I can simply love something
Zen Arado: even seeing
Aphrodite Macbain: to different degrees and types
Zen Arado: and object seen

Aphrodite Macbain: or thought about
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph. You might make an excellent hermit, then because unless hermits can "just love something," there is no way they will survive as hermits.
Zen Arado: if you make it into degrees
Aphrodite Macbain: I can love abstracts like nature or ideas or smells, or ideas...
Zen Arado: split it up
Aphrodite Macbain: Berti's on at 2
Zen Arado: it becomes obvious with love that if you reduce it to distinctions it goes
Zen Arado: remember the merchant of Venice?
Zen Arado: something like that
Aphrodite Macbain: Mercy?

Aphrodite Macbain: What is friendship?
Zen Arado: you dissect the life out of it
Zen Arado: pound of flesh
Aphrodite Macbain: rather than just feel it.. yes
Zen Arado: and friendship too
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Zen Arado: 'you are my friend so therefore you should... list..
Zen Arado: is that friendship?
Zen Arado: listens too
Bruce Mowbray: No, that is more like capitalism.
Bruce Mowbray: a deal for a deal.
Zen Arado:yes
Zen Arado: what is friendship then?
Aphrodite Macbain: that is not true friendship - when they can be "used"
Bruce Mowbray: Getting along?"
Bruce Mowbray: Flowing along?
Bruce Mowbray: Sharing along?
Zen Arado: can it be reduced to a formula?
Bruce Mowbray: Meeting in a field....
Aphrodite Macbain: In the book by Mencius, Book 5 part B when asked about the principles of friendship, Mencius replied,

In making friends with others…do not rely on the advantage age, position or powerful relations. In making friends with someone you do so because of his virtue, and you must not rely on any advantages you may possess.

Zen Arado: every friendship is different
Aphrodite Macbain: Aristotle gave specific examples of what constitute various types of friendship. He asks

“What is one’s good as a true friend?” and answered that there are three kinds of friendship: friendship based on utility, friendship based on pleasure, and friendship based on goodness of character. The first two kinds of friendship are based on superficial qualities, preventing these sorts of friendship from being long lasting. A friendship based on goodness of character, however, is the best kind of friendship he said, because these friends love one another for whom they are and not for what they stand to gain from one another.

Bruce Mowbray: Well, then, perhaps, friendship could be forgiving each other their respective neuroses.
Aphrodite Macbain: Both Mencius and Aristotle say roughly the same thing
Aphrodite Macbain: respect, sharing of values?
Bruce Mowbray: and going for the higher "we" rather than the individual neurotic "you's."
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Zen Arado: that last one is very idealistic though
Aphrodite Macbain: Friendship is one mind in two bodies.
Zen Arado: lots of factors involved
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: not simple
Bruce Mowbray can't imagine sharing his mind with anyone else -- Who would WANT it?
Zen Arado: friends have mutual advantage to each other
Aphrodite Macbain: I have lots of acquaintances but not many true friends
Zen Arado: bottom line
Bruce Mowbray: so benefit to both sides, Zen?
Aphrodite Macbain: I don’t agree Zen
Zen Arado: usually
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Zen Arado: but not a formula
Zen Arado: either
Aphrodite Macbain: Friends are the siblings God never gave us.
Aphrodite Macbain: I have to go my friends...
Bruce Mowbray: at least not an equation of equal balances on both sides?
Zen Arado: you don't ever see that in friendships Aph?
Zen Arado: oh no
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don’t have friends so I can USE them
Zen Arado: sharing of interests is high for me
Zen Arado: too
Aphrodite Macbain: I have friends because they make me feel at home and inspired all at once
Zen Arado: but it is mutual using
Zen Arado: give and take
Zen Arado: as in all relationships
Bruce Mowbray: is "acceptance of who you are" part of the deal?
Zen Arado: except mother and children perhaps
Aphrodite Macbain: I hesitate to employ the word "use". It makes friendships simply utilitarian
Bruce Mowbray: whether or not you share interests?
Zen Arado: use is a bad word to describe it

Zen Arado: suggests one sidedness

Aphrodite Macbain: bye for now dear friends. :) takes off in her pumpkinmobile

Bruce Mowbray: But, from earliest childhood, we learn things (behaviors and thoughts) that serve us with utility...
Zen Arado: reciprocity
Bruce Mowbray: so, utilitarian is virtually bred into us.
Zen Arado: reciprocity
Bruce Mowbray: do it if it gets you milk, safety, warmth, comfort, etc.
Zen Arado: these things are natural though
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Zen Arado: sounds bad when you reduce to words and formulas
Bruce Mowbray: Where did the Pumpkin Lady go?
Zen Arado: my original point
Bruce Mowbray: well then, what if we just do it -- perhaps even impulsively -- without words and formulas?
Bruce Mowbray: May I give you an example of what I mean?
Zen Arado: just enjoy someone's company without analysing whether they are getting more or less than you out of it?
Zen Arado: sure
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I agree with you, Zen.
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: I just attended a session about this sort of thing...
Bruce Mowbray: and at one point I said,
Bruce Mowbray: "The impulse of gratitude - -
Bruce Mowbray: all by itself -- without motive or ulterior plan-
Bruce Mowbray: is the thing that 99% of the time
Bruce Mowbray: compels me toward prayer."
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands.
Zen Arado: mmm
Zen Arado: the point of the Merchant of Venice
Bruce Mowbray: really?
Zen Arado: love and friendship should not be calculated
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed.
Bruce Mowbray: The grocer counts everything....
Bruce Mowbray: - Kazanzakis.

Zen Arado: The calculating mind kills love
Zen Arado: and maybe life

Bruce Mowbray: "How do I love thee? Let me count the ways."
Bruce Mowbray: (doesn't work!)
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: I feel drained now