2013.10.20 13:00 – Time and its discontents

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

 Aphrodite Macbain:

Wearing time lightly

like a soft garment,

warm but not oppressive,

not restrictive

Right now time falls heavily
on my shoulders.

Wanting a resolution to happen quickly

Patience is the handmaiden of time

Allowing us to accept its slow and steady flow,

Uninterrupted by human desire

Aphrodite Macbain: sigh
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi!!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I just sent you an email
Aphrodite Macbain: you and the rest of PAB
Eliza Madrigal looks
Eliza Madrigal: time for poems and poems for time :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I've also been writing poems
Aphrodite Macbain: yes :) for the time being
Eliza Madrigal: since this morning's session I've been pondering time as guru
Aphrodite Macbain: It can be a guru or a strict disciplinarian

Eliza Madrigal: in one of my favorite book series "His Dark Materials" and in other stories... death is always with us, teaching us... I suppose there is a similar sensibility... yet Time seems generous overall
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm perhaps if I think about death, time will be easier to accept
Eliza Madrigal: everything has a context through which it is easier to relate
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps why some things we go through we can't understand except in retrospect

Aphrodite Macbain: yes, almost everything!
Eliza Madrigal: Dogen says time moves from future to present to past
Aphrodite Macbain: Can you explain that Eliza?

Eliza Madrigal: it is rather like an unraveling
Aphrodite Macbain: nice
Eliza Madrigal: in the same way that we see connections when looking back
Aphrodite Macbain: looking backward.
Eliza Madrigal: but not as we are moving forward...how many times people will say "Oh, it makes sense now... I couldn't have A if not for B"

Eliza Madrigal: "mystery novels are written backward"

Aphrodite Macbain: I am reading Dante's Inferno
Aphrodite Macbain: and the Heretics have a special place
Aphrodite Macbain: they can see the future but not the present!
Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could see the present a bit better too
Eliza Madrigal: blinded by ambition perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: desire
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, perhaps
Aphrodite Macbain: I like the time when it comes as a flow...
Aphrodite Macbain: I get it when gardening or painting
Aphrodite Macbain: doing something with my hands
Eliza Madrigal: I relate to that…have experienced it painting... most often experience in dreams
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes able to continue waking
Aphrodite Macbain: in dreams, there is no time
Eliza Madrigal: once upon a time.. I could tap that way in writing easily... synchronistic flow
Aphrodite Macbain: and not now?
Eliza Madrigal: mmm.... well I think I had the wrong end of the stick for a while
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps by 'seeking' flow to be a certain way... hidden beliefs in formulas or superstitions
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Eliza Madrigal: like, if one is seeking validation
Aphrodite Macbain: we put a lot of demands on ourselves!
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: seeking validation- a dangerous game to play. It most often backfires
Eliza Madrigal: our poor selves...
Eliza Madrigal: haha... I'm remembering an analogy from a retreat or something... of someone kicking the self like an ATM
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether we get stronger and more resilient or the opposite.
Eliza Madrigal: both, I'd guess
Eliza Madrigal: wabi sabe ^.^ wu wei
Aphrodite Macbain: like St Paul kicking against the pricks - hurting himself only
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori! :)
Korel Laloix: Heya
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Korel
Aphrodite Macbain: we are talking about time and how we deal with it
Korel Laloix: Or lack there of?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: or too much
Eliza Madrigal: I'm glad you came early Aph... a friend is playing at a Burn2 event and I've said I'll attend... so must go but have wanted to attend your session
Eliza Madrigal: sorry to miss you Kori...again
Eliza Madrigal: sigh
Eliza Madrigal: if interested later: [12:45] Ladyslipper Constantine: DRUM will be performing at BURN2 at 1:00 pm SLT. slurl isBurning Man- Deep Hole (2,213,24)
Eliza Madrigal: really fun group
Korel Laloix: ciao
Korel Laloix smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: Ah Bye Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: miss a lingering conversation...
Aphrodite Macbain: Have fun
Eliza Madrigal: hugs
Korel Laloix: No worries...
Korel Laloix: Enjoy.
Aphrodite Macbain: cheers and thank you

Aphrodite Macbain: What's new with you Korel?
Aphrodite Macbain: It's been ages
Korel Laloix: Well.. moved back in with Grandma yesterday.. so getting things back in order.
Korel Laloix: Cleaning up and the like...
Korel Laloix: Doing some detail work.
Aphrodite Macbain: It must be nice to be back
Korel Laloix: It is... just a very unfortunate situation..
Korel Laloix: But done with... at least for a couple of years.
Korel Laloix: Well. not sure how long I am going to stay in this area really.
Korel Laloix: How things been with you"?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm. Could be better
Korel Laloix: oh?.. things out of sorts with you?
Korel Laloix: Hopefully temporary if so.
Aphrodite Macbain: I hope so Thanks Korel
Korel Laloix: Not that I can spell today.
Aphrodite Macbain: me neither
Korel Laloix smiles
Korel Laloix: Anything you need to talk about with it?
Aphrodite Macbain: What stops you from staying with your grandmother?
Korel Laloix: Well... long story... but one of her sons moved back in... So I had to move out.
Aphrodite Macbain: Has he moved out again?
Korel Laloix: lol... not by choice

Korel Laloix: So moved back in yesterday.. And she is back to trying to force feed me again...
Korel Laloix: So they had to rip a bit of my old room out and redo it.

Aphrodite Macbain: We are sort of talking about time and holding it lightly
Wol Euler: evening all
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Wol
Korel Laloix: Heay
Aphrodite Macbain: among other things
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler listens.
Korel Laloix: Going to have to take up bulimia as a hobby I think.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am glad your grandmother is feeding you! I hope her cooking is good :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bulimia shouldn’t be an option
Korel Laloix: I tis fantastic for sure.
Korel Laloix: I was sagging with my weight for a bit... but not now.
Aphrodite Macbain: send us a recipe
Aphrodite Macbain can't imagine Korel sagging
Korel Laloix: lol... meant my weight... was getting down to 75ish.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah makes more sense.
Aphrodite Macbain: During the break, try looking at the quality of the time u spend dropping
Korel Laloix: it amazes me how much weight I can loose eating junk food all the time.
Wol Euler: well, there isn't much nutrition in it
Wol Euler: just sugar and fats
Korel Laloix: And lots of lovely yummy tastes as well..
Korel Laloix: I so love pop tarts.
Wol Euler smiles.
Aphrodite Macbain: I tried to sit and listen to my breathing but I got distracted
Korel Laloix: I completely failed to drop... fixed tea.
Aphrodite Macbain: What does holding time "gently "mean to you
Wol Euler: had a video on in the background (just listening) and forgot to pause it.
Aphrodite Macbain: so many distractions
Aphrodite Macbain: we don’t notice
Aphrodite Macbain: until we pay attention
Wol Euler nods.
Korel Laloix: Seems to mean to me a waste of time... I think time should be used with a passion.
Aphrodite Macbain: what kind of passion?
Korel Laloix: Whatever you are doing.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm
Aphrodite Macbain: I am anxiously worrying about something
Korel Laloix: Homework, doing Sl, running, sex, thinking, etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: and I wish I could let it go
Aphrodite Macbain: I realize I have so little control over my emotions
Aphrodite Macbain: positive or negative
Wol Euler listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: I want to stop worrying, thinking about something and I can’t stop
Aphrodite Macbain: Distraction brings temporary relief
Aphrodite Macbain: but underlying everything there is this anxiety
Korel Laloix: I am not sure controlling emotions is a good thing.
Korel Laloix: But worry I think can be done too much.
Aphrodite Macbain: picking away at the scab
Wol Euler: I agree that controlling emotions is not a great idea - and besides, in my experience it doesn't work
Wol Euler: they get out anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: but if they are hurting your life
Wol Euler: I think of emotions as symptoms rather than diseases
Wol Euler: as it were
Wol Euler: what you feel is the emotion, but what causes the pain is something else
Wol Euler: one isn't sad because of sadness
Aphrodite Macbain: no
Aphrodite Macbain: one is sad because something has triggered the sadness
Aphrodite Macbain: which sets off a chemical reaction that floods your body
Korel Laloix: I like more the idea of using emotions than suppressing them.
Korel Laloix: But. I know the down side of that as well.
Wol Euler nods.
Korel Laloix: Goes back to my dislike for the equanimity concept.
Aphrodite Macbain: you don’t like equanimity?
Aphrodite Macbain: oops
Aphrodite Macbain: I yearn for it so I can get back to living
Korel Laloix: Think it should be avoided as much as possible.
Korel Laloix: Equanimity I mean
Aphrodite Macbain: why?

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Qt
Wol Euler: helo qt
Qt Core: Hi all!
Korel Laloix: And excuse for moral cowardice... throws away a great source of motivation... gives excuses to be emotionally callus and tolerate injustice, etc
Wol Euler: hello lila
Qt Core: Hi lila
Aphrodite Macbain: why should we be motivated by emotions. Why not be motivated by rational principles
Korel Laloix: Heya
Lila Darkmatter: oops, sorry Qt
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Lila

Lila Darkmatter: (back...burn2 knocked eliza offline and she couldn't get back)
Wol Euler: oops
Korel Laloix: hmm.. Try to be romantic with someone based on logic... not sure I can see that one.
Korel Laloix: Or paint or write a great poem... all with only rational thought?
Korel Laloix: Sorry... I just can't see that.
Korel Laloix: Same idea on the negative side as well.
Aphrodite Macbain: a balance between rational and emotional is equanimity for me
Lila Darkmatter: I found the text she was looking for for you though, Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Aphrodite Macbain: great, thanks!
Korel Laloix: But most don't see it that way i don't think Aph.
Wol Euler: different motivations for different things, I guess
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess we need to define our terms
Wol Euler: both have their correct uses
Korel Laloix: I prefer to get mad and use that emotion for positive change... it is a source of energy for most.
Lila Darkmatter: momentary energy
Aphrodite Macbain: nods it can be a great motivator for good things but also for bad things
Wol Euler: the angry muse :)
Wol Euler: well yes of course :) so can anything
Wol Euler: most genocides have been very rationally planned
Wol Euler: as has the eradication of diseases
Wol Euler shrugs.
Lila Darkmatter: hidden anger is just as toxic though looks the same as equanimity on the surface perhaps
Korel Laloix: Both seem solid conclusions.
Aphrodite Macbain: most genocide is fuelled by hate and fear
Aphrodite Macbain: and executed rationally
Aphrodite Macbain: we need a balance of emotions as well
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: and perhaps a pinch of compassion
Lila Darkmatter: do we believe "time heals all wounds" ?
Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think Qt?
Korel Laloix: Compassion is another trick word.
Aphrodite Macbain: Time seems to dull the pain Lila...
Korel Laloix: Time heals all wounds.... in terms of reliving the guild of the hurter... but not always the feelings of the hurt.
Wol Euler: Time leaves scar tissue.
Korel Laloix: guilt
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Wol smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: Wol, smiles
Korel Laloix: I have to say though... time does help.. I have a lot of scars that are fading.
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: I find emotion interrupts rational thought- it is always more powerful
Wol Euler: they eventually do, yes, though you might still get a twinge once in a while
Korel Laloix: But rationale thought can kill a good emotion as well though.]
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not convinced of that Korel
Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I had been more rational when I fell in love with someone. I would have realized it was never going to work.
Lila Darkmatter: hmm, I bet a lot of people wish they could "decide" whether to fall in love or not
Lila Darkmatter: :P
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles and nods
Wol Euler smiles.
Lila Darkmatter: its like deciding whether to be born
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: hmm. Sometimes you can catch yourself...
Aphrodite Macbain: Berti at 2
Korel Laloix: But for me... the rational thoughts about the person I want to meet never work out.
Lila Darkmatter: "Looking around here I've decided this wasn't such a good idea.. or maybe I meant to aim for Japan..."
Korel Laloix: At least in getting the relationships going.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Korel Laloix: So short vs long term there.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. Short term gain for long term pain
Wol Euler: which perhaps brings us to time again :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Plaisire d'amour etc
Lila Darkmatter: :)
Qt Core: wondering about the Vulcan way now ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: Time in the short term
Wol Euler: "holding time lightly" might mean letting short term BE short term, not stretching it out artificially at any price
Aphrodite Macbain: I like that
Aphrodite Macbain: a lot
Aphrodite Macbain: that requires reason and not passion though
Lila Darkmatter: I've heard it said actually that this is different for genders... that a female falls in love then changes her life to accommodate whereas a man feels ready then begins to look for someone to commit to
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hmm not in my most recent experience
Korel Laloix: Sounds reasonable.
Qt Core: so there is still hope for me ;-)
Wol Euler: there's always hope :)
Korel Laloix: But not sure how general than can be put out.
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at Qt. There is always hope, I hope
Wol Euler: meta-hope
Aphrodite Macbain: we live in meta-hope that things will get better?
Korel Laloix: I hope so.
Lila Darkmatter: I'm having a barrage of thoughts on the topic and see no time to pour them through the funnel, lol
Wol Euler: heheheh
Aphrodite Macbain: Start with one Lila
Lila Darkmatter: hm... impossible.. They have to do with connections, and context... and desire being tied together with other things "strangers to ourselves"
Aphrodite Macbain: strangers to ourselves?
Lila Darkmatter: what we want, what feels to free us, we want from a context of some sort, I think...
Lila Darkmatter: so in a book called strangers to ourselves they did a test where they talked to people on and off a bridge...
Lila Darkmatter: asking the same question/test
Lila Darkmatter: to measure what they wanted or if they found someone attractive.. I forget the exact test... but it mattered where they were
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: location location location
Lila Darkmatter: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: context is everything?
Lila Darkmatter: not everything, but should be looked at
Lila Darkmatter: it has to do with how we see one another, in roles, as well
Lila Darkmatter: for instance how someone may hear eliza differently than lila
Aphrodite Macbain: So I would feel very differently if I were standing on a beach in Italy or a mountain in the alps?
Wol Euler: dont you? :)

Npt if I were very miserable or very in love.
Lila Darkmatter: if you were in a context in which you felt like you were floating away and someone offered you a tether..
Aphrodite Macbain: does eliza feel different from Lila?
Lila Darkmatter: it might seem appealing, or more appealing, than if buried half under ground and someone offered you a tether
Lila Darkmatter: sometimes :)
Wol Euler: (Berti in three minutes)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Lila Darkmatter: see... knew I couldn't get the thoughts out, hahha... sorry
Aphrodite Macbain: yes if the situation was desperate Lila
Lila Darkmatter: in that regard, distance and time DO help... to see in diff contexts
Lila Darkmatter: and if something is lasting
Aphrodite Macbain: Please feel free to say more Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Lila Darkmatter: then it will find a place in many contexts and times
Aphrodite Macbain: the past is easier to deal with than the present I guess
Lila Darkmatter: "it is then that like a log you should remain " :)
Aphrodite Macbain: the present ties my guts in a knot, the past has no effect
Aphrodite Macbain  rolls over like a log
Lila Darkmatter: (((Aph))))
Wol Euler: let me recommendDaniel Kahneman "Thinking, fast and slow", about the difference between how people decide and how they *think* they decide.
Aphrodite Macbain: :) Thanks!
Wol Euler: and with that, goodnight, Berti calls
Lila Darkmatter: ooh definitely want to read that
Wol Euler: take care, be happy and full of good time
Korel Laloix: ciao
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks everyone
Lila Darkmatter: enjoy Berti! :) Kids are going through attic things
Lila Darkmatter: and I want to see :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I think I need Berti today
Korel Laloix: Take care.
Lila Darkmatter: <3
Aphrodite Macbain: I’ll practice being a log
Korel Laloix: I am off as well.
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Qt, Korel Lila
Korel Laloix: Take care
Qt Core: bye Korel
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the hat
Korel Laloix: chat