2014.06.16 13:00 - awareness and injustice, game and story

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :) You've just appeared for me, but I do not yet appear to myself
Bruce Mowbray: I am having the same problem . . . just a matter of time I think
Eliza Madrigal: A little more time than usual... going on 5 minutes and I've rebooted
Bruce Mowbray: oh my! that's the problem I was having yesterday -- and I blamed it on solar flares.
Bruce Mowbray: enormous lag!
Eliza Madrigal: If I'm dressed, all is fine
Eliza Madrigal: I can be a cloud unto myself
Bruce Mowbray: !!
Bruce Mowbray: you look great! and fully dressed, too.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers!
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu, and Aggers, sliding in for the win
Bleu Oleander: hiya all :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Bleu!
Eliza Madrigal: Will someone take a picture of me so that I can know I am clothed?
Agatha Macbeth: Just waiting for the Swan of Tuonela to finish :p
Agatha Macbeth: You ARE clothed Liz
Agatha Macbeth: (To me)
Bruce Mowbray: I will.
Bruce Mowbray: Just a sec.
Bleu Oleander: you are :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank you
Agatha Macbeth: Unfortunately HA
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu is half grey too :(
Bleu Oleander: awww
Eliza Madrigal: (promise I won't go on about this much more..will 'deal'! )
Agatha Macbeth: Nooo Bleu is blue :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bleu Monday

Eliza Madrigal: Have you all watched Aph's video?
Bleu Oleander: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Nope
Bleu Oleander: yes, just did
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't had a chance, but Storm's email made it sound so interesting
Eliza Madrigal: so I'm curious
Bruce Mowbray: me neither, but it's on my list of things to do tonight.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Curious
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: What is the gist, Bleu?
Agatha Macbeth: Love that word
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Curious!
Bleu Oleander: ah ok caught me off guard ... will watch again and pay more attention to report :)
Agatha Macbeth pokes Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: oh, hah... no that's fine

Bleu Oleander: about rational science vs emotional and subjective approaches
Bleu Oleander: I don't make that distinction though
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Bleu Oleander: so I wasn't really relating to it
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen.
Agatha Macbeth: Rational never works for me
Eliza Madrigal: I see
Zen Arado: Hi Y'aa
Zen Arado: all
Eliza Madrigal: without rational, no magical
Bleu Oleander: the rational is emotional
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zenster
Bleu Oleander: everything is emotional
Agatha Macbeth: Well I am
Bleu Oleander: hehe

Zen Arado: emotions are how you react surely?
Zen Arado: a reaction to events
Eliza Madrigal: I think emotions are the flavors of our thoughts
Bleu Oleander: emotions flavor everything ... like that word flavor :)
Zen Arado: thoughts come first though I think
Bleu Oleander: actually emotions do
Bruce Mowbray is getting emotional about Bleu's World Cup clothes . . .
Eliza Madrigal: that may depend on conditioning, whether we experience one or the other as first
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: wonders where she left her soccer ball.
Bleu Oleander: but you may mean conscious emotions

Zen Arado: do experiences give emotions or is it the thinking about the experiencing?
Eliza Madrigal feels emotion watching sports
Eliza Madrigal: basketball has been tough last few games
Eliza Madrigal: woe is me
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps bodies come into the picture somewhere . . . I mean maybe it's bodies that produce emotion rather than thoughts.
Bleu Oleander: emotions are our body's reactions to our being in the world, our experiences
Agatha Macbeth: Bodies Brucie?
Zen Arado: it's just a sensation though until we think about it and label it and decide if it is good or bad?
Eliza Madrigal: physicality greatly affects our thoughts too actually.... easy to see in every day experience, that if tired may be less patient, etc
Zen Arado: that's why just really investigating a feeling starts to render it neutral again
Bleu Oleander: they start out under the radar and become conscious so we can react to them
Zen Arado: it's a circularity then
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: called life
Eliza Madrigal: ah, I am coming into my own view, don't feel so vague
Bleu Oleander listens
Zen Arado: listens

Eliza Madrigal: was just cloudy... but I wonder if "vague" can really be an emotion. When given meditation instructions often one is told to label: good, bad, neutral... just to see your own experience of what you experience
Zen Arado: yeh but that's for beginning meditators
Zen Arado: when there is a waterfall of thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: not that those labels are true, but it is a way for someone to be sensitive to themselves, self-aware
Bruce Mowbray: we experts at medication already know: Perfect Perfect Perfect Perfect.
Bruce Mowbray: not just " good" or"bad."
Zen Arado: not perfect
Zen Arado: there is no perfect meditation but there are tips for beginners
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Wol.
Agatha Macbeth: Wollie ♥
Eliza Madrigal: no expert here :)
Wol Euler: evening all, sorry I'm late
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome to my perfect world!
Zen Arado: like counting breaths
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Bleu Oleander: hiya Wol

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: [loves Woly's shirt!]
Bruce Mowbray: Perfect!
Zen Arado: anyway I don't do 'meditation'any more, I just sit quietly and see what happens
Wol Euler grins.
Bruce Mowbray: and what happens is always perfect, right?
Zen Arado: got tired of that techniquey stuff
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Zen Arado: what is perfect?
Bruce Mowbray: what is.
Zen Arado: need a judgement
Bruce Mowbray: is this not the best of all possible worlds?
Bruce Mowbray: would Leibnitz lie?

Bleu Oleander: I find the minute I call something meditation I get stressed over whether i'm doing it right or not so I don't do it anymore ... just slip into it naturally with music and art
Zen Arado: just a world
Eliza Madrigal: "just sit quietly at your table and listen...the world will unmask itself" (paraphrased Kafka)
Zen Arado: the rest is how you judge it
Eliza Madrigal: I like all the techniques, but approached as play...tinkering
Zen Arado: apologies to MR Pangloss
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with everything that is been said during the last two minutes.
Eliza Madrigal: "what does this do?"
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: it is funny that when I talk to someone about meditation, they usually think that means I'm calm... but I have to clarify that I probably wouldn't have been so interested, if calm
Wol Euler: heheheh, exactly
Zen Arado: they always ascribe a purpose
Bruce Mowbray: nods, agrees emphatically!
Zen Arado: you meditate to get calm
Bruce Mowbray: I do?
Eliza Madrigal: there are a lot of cliches I suppose
Bleu Oleander: so if already calm no need?
Eliza Madrigal: I think that is what is sold as the reason for meditation
Zen Arado: because people have had goal orientated approaches drummed into them all their lives

Wol Euler: well, "calm" is a pretty big word
Eliza Madrigal: true
Bleu Oleander: I find I still like it even if calm ... gives me a different window to look out at the world, actually both in and out
Eliza Madrigal: someone can be quite vigorous with a 'still' and steady center
Zen Arado: prefer equanimity
Eliza Madrigal: yes I like that Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: I have actually recorded my blood pressure and my galvanic skin response during meditation . . . and it's often is anything but getting calmer. I know that's the intended "purpose" for most folks, but for me increasing subtlety in experience (even though it raises my blood pressure) is what meditation is about.
Eliza Madrigal: to me that description is equanimous.... inner/outer awareness
Bleu Oleander: my bp is already low :)
Zen Arado: nothing wrong with meditating to get calm
Eliza Madrigal: sure
Bruce Mowbray: nothing wrong with meditating to do anything . . .
Zen Arado: maybe we have to start like that
Eliza Madrigal: it is just good to be aware of the stories about things
Eliza Madrigal: so that if one differs, they don't panic
Zon Kwan: heya
Bruce Mowbray: I often --- Heya, Zon!
Wol Euler: hello zon
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :)
Zen Arado: just different perspectives
Bleu Oleander: especially the stories we tell ourselves
Zen Arado: Hi Zon
Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
Eliza Madrigal: probably all stories fall into that category....because we filter out what we hear?
Bruce Mowbray: of course. each of our meditations will be unique -- uniquely ours as individuals, but also unique among all of our meditations ( as an individual.)
Zen Arado: yes Bleu...that is the really valuable thing for me....noticing and challenging the stories I tell myslef
Zen Arado: yes Bruce
Bleu Oleander: the stories we tell ourselves collectively too
Bleu Oleander: as cultures

Eliza Madrigal: Zon, did you receive the pab questionnaire? I'll give you a copy to give back to me with feedback, okay?
Zen Arado: yes the consensus of our society
Zen Arado: needs challenging too
Zon Kwan: hm..i did lose it
Eliza Madrigal: no worries, feedback is much appreciated though
Zon Kwan: okie
Eliza Madrigal: thanks :)
Bruce Mowbray: that so-called consensus -- the mutual agreement ( especially between warring parties) - the agreement to oppose each other, is why I call this a perfect world. everything balances.
Zen Arado: I don't agree with consensus
Zen Arado: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: I object!
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Bruce Mowbray: listens.
Wol Euler: some of them are pretty useful, e.g. which side of the road to drive on
Wol Euler: of which day of the week is weekend
Bruce Mowbray: yes those are some of the less subtle agreements.
Zen Arado: yes handy consensuses
Bruce Mowbray: I wish you could watch a group of Quakers trying to reach so-called consensus . . . sometimes it feels downright violent.
Eliza Madrigal: I find that conversations can get bogged down with disagreements at times, when it becomes a way of conversation
Wol Euler listens.
Bruce Mowbray: nods, agrees w/Eliza.


Bleu Oleander: I heard such a disturbing story today ... speaking of the stories cultures tell themselves
Bleu Oleander: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...y.html?hp&_r=0
Eliza Madrigal: listens
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully for the story.
Bleu Oleander: was so sad I could hardly watch it
Bruce Mowbray: brings up the webpage.
Bleu Oleander: kinda the reverse of what my culture would relate to
Bruce Mowbray: bookmarked for careful reading later . . . looks to be a very sad story.
Bleu Oleander: it is and surprising in many ways
Bleu Oleander: I don't really know much about Myanmar
Zen Arado: yes and there was a story about young British girls from Pakistan being forced into marriages by their parents when they went on a holiday there
Eliza Madrigal: I remember during the first big attack on Iraq, walking to the school to get my son and chatting with a new neighbor. I thought we had good rapport. So I said to her that I felt a bit sick to my stomach and she looked so plainly at me and said "I hope we wipe them all out."
Bleu Oleander: wow
Zen Arado: actually this was predicted in a littler arts courase I did a few years ago
Eliza Madrigal: the world shook on its axis for a moment, because she was kind of the model for everyone around... of a "good person"

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I remember that also. . . my typist was working in a group home, and when the first attack came ( Shock and Awe) another staff member and my typist embraced each other in tears.
Zen Arado: the military dictatorship held the warring ethnic groups together
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes religion and class get tied together in societies
Eliza Madrigal: and it sounds like that is what is going on there... but I have to read more... very sad
Bruce Mowbray: it seems they are not separable - religion and class, I mean.
Eliza Madrigal: (re article)
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: but they may differ from country to country
Bleu Oleander: its us vs them
Bruce Mowbray: I challenge you to look for homeless people in a congregation of Presbyterians!
Bruce Mowbray: ( that was supposed to be a joke, sorry.)
Bleu Oleander: our "groupishness" coming out in ugly ways
Eliza Madrigal: fear
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: when resources are scarce, it comes out more
Eliza Madrigal: but then there are probably other things going on we might not easily recognize, from our view
Bleu Oleander: yes for sure
Zen Arado: exactly Eliza
Bleu Oleander: property, resources, money to name a few
Zen Arado: our own prejudices etc are invisible to us
Eliza Madrigal: underground

Bruce Mowbray: I remember being shocked in undergraduate school when one of my government professors told the students ( at the very wealthy Southern Methodist University) that he was a theoretical communist.
Bruce Mowbray: ( that was in the very early 60s . . . when communist was fightn' words.)
Zen Arado: oh yes that was the Mc Carty witchhunt era
Eliza Madrigal: those are still fightin words here in Miami
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Zen Arado: Mc Carthy
Bruce Mowbray: actually just a bit later than that. . . but you got the idea!
Eliza Madrigal: due to communism = Castro for many people
Eliza Madrigal: so one can't really have a conversation about it
Eliza Madrigal: yet Capitalism's fairness largely unscrutinzed... business = opportunity
Bleu Oleander: .... and other convenient fictions :)
Wol Euler nods.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: so perhaps a more self-aware and mindful society, means there will be more room for these conversations full of conflict to take place
 

Bug cars...

Zen Arado: yes and people cry out against global warming but refuse to stop driving bug cars long distances
Bruce Mowbray: In my opinion here is the biggest "myth" so far in the 21st century: "United we stand!" - - - (that slogan during the months after 9/11....) I suspect that those middle Eastern invasions divided the country (USA) far more than it United it.
Eliza Madrigal: bug cars are okay, lol...
Zen Arado: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: ^.^
Wol Euler: http://photos.evo.co.uk/images/front...o_511957_7.jpg
Bruce Mowbray: bug cars --- I trust you aren't referring to mine . . . which has not been washed for a long time ( but still compact, nonetheless)
Eliza Madrigal: well certainly revealed the divisions in some ways, unfortunately within families at times, like mine
Zen Arado: that's more like it :)
Eliza Madrigal click
Bruce Mowbray: a multitude of bugs splattered all over the car.
Bleu Oleander: hehe had phone call and came back to "bug cars"
Eliza Madrigal pictures kids hanging off top
Zen Arado: is smug becaue he doesn't drive a car
Bleu Oleander: missed a segue there lol
Bruce Mowbray: just opened the last webpage!
Eliza Madrigal: I drive the equivalent of a bus now, but it is only recently in my name to trade
Bruce Mowbray: love it! I want one!
Zen Arado: but would if he could


Bruce Mowbray: wishes there were public transportation to his typists farm, alas.
Eliza Madrigal: there are decisions that are obvious to make, but really without thinking and creating collectively, we won't get far
Zen Arado: but there isn't because peole prefer the convenience of cars
Eliza Madrigal: I really still believe that Jonah Leher was right when he said that the problems of our time aren't the work of lone geniuses, for the most part
Eliza Madrigal: (even if he was shown to be clipping intellectual corners in various ways)
Zen Arado: leaders have to lead the herd where they want to go
Zen Arado: or maybe nudge them a little bit
Bleu Oleander: where are today's leaders?
Eliza Madrigal: hard to redesign whole cities that took 20 years to get into the mess they're in
Eliza Madrigal: or 50 years
Bleu Oleander: or 2000 years
Eliza Madrigal: :)


Bruce Mowbray: each of us can be a leader -- actually, IS the leader -- of her own life. I mean, isn't that what free will is all about?
Zen Arado: imagine if Obama decried the use of automobiles and trebled the tax on gas?
Wol Euler: well 2000 yr old cities tend to look very different to 50 yr old ones
Eliza Madrigal: maybe leaders = hero too much now, and heroes get built up and chopped down for sport in our societies
Wol Euler: definitely true, eliza
Bruce Mowbray: the cost of gasoline will go up anyway, Zen --- if these disputes in the Middle East continue --- and surely they will, because both sides of every dispute are entrenched ( and in agreement with each other that the violence must continue.)
Eliza Madrigal: well many not happy right now with Obama's "war on coal" but some saying "well finally something..."
Zen Arado: but gas is so cheap in the US still
Zen Arado: it's about 3 times the cost in Europe
Wol Euler nods.

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: I'm noticing that I don't mind our conversation about this today, where normally I'd rather get into more contemplative topics
Zen Arado: http://www.handicare.com/en/products...25/c-188/p-107
Bruce Mowbray: I am surely saying "well finally something!" But remember, every attempt of the current administration to do something about ecology, air and water pollution, or global warming -- has been blocked by a Republican Congress. I say it's time for Obama to do a lot of executive orders . . .
Zen Arado: what I drive heheh
Eliza Madrigal: click
Eliza Madrigal: stylin'
Eliza Madrigal: wear your sweater like that too?
Bruce Mowbray: Cool! I want one of those -- to replace my transport chair.
Zen Arado: nope
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: you could buy a good car for the price
Bruce Mowbray: "MORE SPEED! MORE JOY!"
Bruce Mowbray: ponders the implications . . .
Zen Arado: mine only does 6 mph
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: that's twice the speed of a person walking . . .
Zen Arado: some walk fast
Bruce Mowbray: nods, indeed they do.
Eliza Madrigal: every life circumstance is different... I'm really careful not to judge, even with huge hummers driven by what seem 16 yo boys out strolling. I am remembering a log of Wol's where, I think Crusty, said, "but how do you know that hummer driver doesn't have a smart car at home too?" vice versa
Eliza Madrigal: I can appreciate our conversation because I think it comes from a place of our keeping aware of relative ignorance
Bruce Mowbray: when my typist walked across the United States, he monitored his "speed" very carefully -- and his normal walking pace was almost precisely 3 miles an hour -- and that enabled him to compute when he would arrive at the next town, camping place, whatever. 3 mph !
Zen Arado: yeh but we can criticise the attitudes or unaware consensus of our cultues, not individuals
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: goodness Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: wait a minute!

Zen Arado: woder if it does any good though, preaching at people
Bruce Mowbray: could you explain that please, Zen?
Zen Arado: raise awareness Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: are you saying that cultures may be criticized but not individuals?
Eliza Madrigal: I'd say preaching has limited effect
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: especially if making someone 'other'
Zen Arado: the attitudes eg racism that may be unconsciously held
Zen Arado: but then again I don't like it when people do that to me
Bruce Mowbray: so, pardon my sickness, but are you saying that racism is a cultural rather than an individual experience?
Bruce Mowbray: not sickness!
Bruce Mowbray: THICKness!
Bruce Mowbray: darn this Dragon!
Zen Arado: like people always going on about cruelty to animals on Facebook
Bruce Mowbray: about to give it up.
Zen Arado: oh yes Bruce
Zen Arado: we are so influenced by attitudes around us
Eliza Madrigal: even if one's own cause, one doesn't like to be bombarded with it :)
Bruce Mowbray: (it does make some very interesting mistakes, however. like that last one --- Thickness versus Sickness..... hmmmmmm.)


Zen Arado: like gayness was totally wrong and sick when I was young
Bruce Mowbray: listens carefully.
Zen Arado: an imprisonable offence
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Eliza Madrigal wakes up Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: :p
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Bruce Mowbray: (over here, too, Zen.)
Zen Arado: and most people agreed with that
Eliza Madrigal blows vuvuzela
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Bruce Mowbray: continues to listen.....
Bruce Mowbray: please go on, Zen.
Agatha Macbeth: buu
Eliza Madrigal: am listening, just tickling Aggers too, lol
Zen Arado: heheh
Bruce Mowbray: buuu?
Zen Arado: that's better
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!


Zen Arado: remember ML King?
Bruce Mowbray: there's something in me that wants to believe (know) that individuals can go in different directions than the cultures they were raised in.
Zen Arado: he raised awareness of the injustices to blacks
Bruce Mowbray: I do remember ML King very well. . . I saw him speak once in Dallas.
Bruce Mowbray: please go on.
Eliza Madrigal finds it interesting that MLK got a "c" in public speaking
Zen Arado: must have worked on it :)
Bruce Mowbray: and Einstein failed high school mathematics courses. . .
Zen Arado: hope for us yet
Eliza Madrigal: or simply become impassioned
Bruce Mowbray: !!

Zen Arado: but aren't we all a bit like sheep?
Eliza Madrigal: do any of us have people in our current age that we feel are worthy "leaders"
Zen Arado: maybe that's why Jesus used the sheep analogy so much
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: saw a sheep's brain disected recently and it looked a lot like a human brain :)
Eliza Madrigal: sheeple
Zen Arado: maybe we get the leaders we deserve
Zen Arado: cometh the hour cometh the man and the reverse too
Eliza Madrigal: I have a running list of people I'd like to have dinner with, but I don't know that there is anyone I think could do a better job with my life than I'm doing
Bruce Mowbray: ponders what "Good Shepherd" might mean. . . . helping?, enabling?, rescuing?, including -- especially including.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: baaah
Bruce Mowbray: actually, we get the worlds that we deserve . . . our choices make it so.
Bleu Oleander: deserve?
Bruce Mowbray: --- our choices and a few asteroids, well directed.
Wol Euler: we get the worlds that we chose

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: waves
Zen Arado: byee Zon
Bruce Mowbray: .... wonders if that deserves a "snap."
Eliza Madrigal: deserve is a flag word for me , but I get the gist of meaning
Zen Arado: but what we choose is because of all the influences upon us
Bleu Oleander: not sure we always deserve or choose our worlds, don't think we have that much control
Bruce Mowbray: I mean, Wol's comment about choice . . . and my own.
Zen Arado: we can't stand outside society
Wol Euler: we don't, usually, but we could
Zen Arado: I think free will is a myth
Wol Euler: mass murderers do, as do those who quit their jobs to start orphanages in the third world
Wol Euler: or ski bums
Eliza Madrigal: I feel it is a combination
Zen Arado: what I choose is the product of all my experiences, interests, prejudices cuture, education and on and on
Bruce Mowbray: or hermits?
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: we are born into conditions and attitudes and yet have opportunities to transform, with great effort at times
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: but even those opoortunities are gifts
Zen Arado: yes but somethng made us want to transform
Eliza Madrigal: auspicious circumstances
Zen Arado: like people who want to stop smoking
Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Zen. but I think where we might disagree is in my saying that your influences are a " perfect path."
Bruce Mowbray: all along the way . . . perfect.
Bruce Mowbray: all of those influences have brought you here.
Bruce Mowbray: and perfectly so.

Zen Arado: until the desire to stop is greater than the desire to continue, they can't
Bruce Mowbray: is this not what Dharma Gates are about?
Eliza Madrigal: think of all the great talents who are never noticed in their time, but who support generations after them
Zen Arado: you can call it perfect if you want to Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: they made choices and followed passions they never saw flower in someone else's eyes
Bruce Mowbray: and I do! that is my experience -- no! -- not true. that is how I choose to view my experience.
Zen Arado: yes but why did they make that choice?
Zen Arado: is what I am saying
Eliza Madrigal: no tellin
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: for love of the game?
Zen Arado: all of what came before
Bruce Mowbray: are you making an argument for determinism . . . as opposed to free will. Zen?
Eliza Madrigal: Pema sometimes has talked about how young science is... and think of that... most work on things they will not see justified
Zen Arado: the 17th Century philosopher Hobbes is interesting on that
Eliza Madrigal: or at least many
Wol Euler: Higgs was bloody lucky to live to see his Boson discovered
Zen Arado: nope both are just philosopher's ideas to me
Eliza Madrigal: beyond , yes
Bruce Mowbray loves to listen to astrophysicists... they have a larger "circle of perception," perhaps.
Bruce Mowbray: especially Neil Degrasse Tyson --- WOW! my hero!
Eliza Madrigal: I think that's the range theoretical many lives proponents are working with too ^.^


Zen Arado: we choose but it isn't a sole individual doing the choosing if you see what I mean
Bruce Mowbray: you've got to start young -- like Einstein: who lived long enough to see many of his early theories be proved.
Bruce Mowbray: or like the Wright brothers!
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: one of whom lived long enough to take a jet airplane from Dayton to Washington DC . . . TRUE!
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: interdependence
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Zen Arado: the Wright brothers couldn't invent a plane until the time was right for it
Bruce Mowbray: totally agree with the Zen on that one.
Bruce Mowbray: and they did invent it!
Bruce Mowbray: when the time was right.
Eliza Madrigal nods... conditions need to be ready... see this with start-ups too
Zen Arado: Leonardo was a genius but he couldn't build a helicopter
Zen Arado: though he had the principle
Bruce Mowbray: nods.


Eliza Madrigal: I have to go after the next pause, but want to thank you all for a nice session, if a little weird with Aggers so quiet :P
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: buu
Bruce Mowbray: do you feel that da Vinci's insights and inventions were products of his culture -- or more results of his own genius?
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: thanks Eliza
Zen Arado: I better go too
Bruce Mowbray: me too.
Zen Arado: I'm getting preachy
Bruce Mowbray: THANK you everybody!
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: always a bad sign :)
Bruce Mowbray: time to scrape up supper.
Wol Euler: goodnight, then, and bon appetit
Eliza Madrigal: Nite friends
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Brucie you ol' scrapist
Wol Euler: thank you, eliza and everyone
Bleu Oleander: oops sorry too many phone calls
Zen Arado: byee
Bleu Oleander: bye everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal is still going to enjoy the pause ^.^
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: didn't mean to cue everyone to scram
Eliza Madrigal: :)


Bleu Oleander: did I miss anything? :)
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
Wol Euler: like shaking a supersaturated solution
Eliza Madrigal: interesting calls?
Bleu Oleander: work
Bleu Oleander: and yes interesting!
Eliza Madrigal: brains calling?
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bleu Oleander: I love that we get calls from so many people smarter than we are lol
Eliza Madrigal: a good feeling, being out of one's depth
Eliza Madrigal: when not terrifying :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: keeps one on one's toes, and a bit humble
Wol Euler: both of which are good
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: fortunate
Bleu Oleander: its fun!
Eliza Madrigal: see - love of the game, or process, or whatever one's metaphor
Wol Euler nods.
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Bleu Oleander: love the game you're in
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Wol Euler: Wol's Principle: it is always worth listening to an expert, whatever their field might be
Bleu Oleander: agree that

--BELL--

Wol Euler: _/|\_
Agatha Macbeth: buu
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Wol Euler: goodnight all
Bleu Oleander: take care all
Agatha Macbeth waves
Eliza Madrigal: Goodnight
Bleu Oleander: ♥ ♥ ♥