2015.07.14 13:00 - Heuristics

The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar...

Darren Islar: hey Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Darren.
Darren Islar: you have any subject in mind?
Bruce Mowbray: ! Well, my roof is leaking so badly from recent downpours that I'm afraid I might drown
Bruce Mowbray: aside from that.. I do have something, yes.
Darren Islar: oh
Darren Islar: can you repair it?

Bruce Mowbray: I've bee thinking about "heuristics."
Bruce Mowbray: Do you know what a heuristic is?
Darren Islar: ok, you will need to explain that one
Bruce Mowbray: I have repaired it many times -- three whole roofs. It still leaks.
Bruce Mowbray: Heuristics:
Bruce Mowbray: basically, a "rule of thumb"
Bruce Mowbray: "When this happens, do this."
Bruce Mowbray: In some cases might be called "common sense" -- but,
Bruce Mowbray: here's my thought:
Bruce Mowbray: Religions (especially Buddhism) are sets (collections) of heuristics.
Bruce Mowbray: gleaned through centuries of experience.
Bruce Mowbray: Is this making sense?
Bruce Mowbray: Let me try to find a better definition....
Bruce Mowbray: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic
Darren Islar: I'm not sure that goes for Buddhism, since it's something which comes from Buddha himself, the teachings I mean, though centuries of great masters have added to it, which includes experience ... but I do see what you mean
Darren Islar: the result might be the same
Darren Islar: thanks, I found it in the meantime :)
Bruce Mowbray: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb
Qt Core: Hi Bruce, leaping
Darren Islar: hey QT
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Qt.
Darren Islar: Bruce is trying to solve a problem for us :)
Bruce Mowbray: I will show Qt what we've said so far....
Bruce Mowbray: Darren said: leaping Panther (darren.islar): I'm not sure that goes for Buddhism, since it's something which comes from Buddha himself, the teachings I mean

Bruce Mowbray: So, yiou don't think the Buddha was teaching heuristics?
Qt Core: ok, up to date
Bruce Mowbray: kk, excellent.
Darren Islar: maybe, I don't know ... the result might be the same, but as stories goes, it's not based on it .. it's based on direct experience, not on problem solving
Darren Islar: ah well, you get me :)
Bruce Mowbray: My point was that .... If direct experience indicates such-and-such, then do such-and-such. And that would be a heuristic.
Darren Islar: ok that way
Bruce Mowbray: :)

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: And when a number of these "rules of thumb" are collected into sets...
Bruce Mowbray: and those sets become "teachings," then that might become the basis for a religion or sect.
Bruce Mowbray: a collection of 'wise sayings' -- or wise rules of thumb.
Bruce Mowbray: I could give you a personal example, if you wish.
Darren Islar: please do
Bruce Mowbray: kk,
Bruce Mowbray: well, in the past few years, I've noticed that my memory seems to fail...
Bruce Mowbray: not so much long-term or short-term memory,....
Bruce Mowbray: (waits until drop is over).
Bruce Mowbray: But if I get distracted . . . [If I go to do one thing, then get distracted by something else], then i might forget the first thing I was going to do... and this could be dangerous... (Like leaving something on a hot stove, etc...) So, I came up with a heuristic for that:
Bruce Mowbray: My heuristic is -- NOTE that I have been distracted... Make a short list (perhaps of only two items)...
Bruce Mowbray: put the first thing on the list as the original thing I was going to do, and the distraction as the second thing.
Bruce Mowbray: Keep checking the list,.
Darren Islar nods
Bruce Mowbray: It doesn't matter what order I do the items, only that I remember to do them all.

Darren Islar: I see the connection with Buddhism as in using awareness for example
Bruce Mowbray: That way I have a heuristic to help me remember -- if something distracts me.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: for sure!
Bruce Mowbray: I used to really get down on myself because I'd forget the original thing -- the original project i was about to do before getting distracted.
Bruce Mowbray: So, let's say that th phone rings...
Darren Islar: the deeper level you talk about within Buddhism, the more it will fail, since it's based on rules, which means thinking, it means some awareness of it needs to be there .. realizations though don't require awareness anymore
Bruce Mowbray: (a distraction)...
Bruce Mowbray: before answering the phone,
Bruce Mowbray: I simply make a two-item list: the original project and the phone.
Bruce Mowbray: Then, after the phone call is done, I go back to my list.
Bruce Mowbray: BIINGO!
Bruce Mowbray: simple -- but effective.
Darren Islar: yes, after a while it becomes a habit
Qt Core: it looks line an interruption stack
Bruce Mowbray: yes, making the list becomes a habit.
Darren Islar: being aware of it as well
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it operates like a stack in computer programming.
Bruce Mowbray: The lists, of course, stay very small... maybe only three items, or less.

Darren Islar: when I look at meditation, being aware has the same kind of ruling
Darren Islar: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Awareness is very vital, of course..... but the problerm, I think, might be with my aging brain...
Darren Islar: when you get distracted, at some point you realize doing so
Darren Islar: first that may take a long time, but after a while that period becomes shorter
Bruce Mowbray: yes, that's the point -- being aware i am distracted and acting upon thst by making the list - immediately..
Darren Islar: since every time you realize it, you go back to your breathing or whatever meditation-object you use
Darren Islar: use
Bruce Mowbray: Do you guys sometimes forget the name of some famous person -- like, say a movie star or an author, or a singer?
Bruce Mowbray: and you cn see that peron's face clear as day, but you can't think of their name?
Qt Core: yes
Darren Islar: yes
Bruce Mowbray: kk, I have a heuristic for that , too.
Qt Core: or with a name you know isn't the right one
Bruce Mowbray: I start with the alphabet... a.... b....c....d....
Bruce Mowbray: and keep my mind relaxed and free- associating....
Bruce Mowbray: and when I come to the letter that the person's name begins with (either first or last name), it is almost always the case that I remember the name immediately.
Bruce Mowbray: I did this just last night with "Tom Hanks" --- in one of his very early movies.
Bruce Mowbray: (Maybe his very first movie, actually.)
Bruce Mowbray: When I got to the letter "h" his name just popped out.
Bruce Mowbray: sry about my typing today... I think I might need tyo clip my nails (!!) ;-)
Darren Islar: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: So, that's another example of a heuristic.
Bruce Mowbray: :)

--BELL--

Darren Islar: yes, I can't place that heuristic in Buddhism though :)
Qt Core: i do something like that too
Bruce Mowbray: Do you have a personal heuristic to share, qt?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Bruce Mowbray: @ Darren: You don't think that those lists of things in Buddhism are not heuristics? --- 8-fold path; 3 jewels; four abodes, etc.?
Qt Core: none that i'm aware of at the moment, i think they almost become automatic, about the name searcg i just almost subvocalize, syllables ir letter until one "sounds good" then the name usually comes (if not i start getting angry ;-) )

Darren Islar: those are made for memorization .... Buddhism however is not the result of it
Darren Islar: hehe QT
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I'm not really making a point about the traditional religion itself... only that it (or any religion, actually might originally have started as a collection of heuristics... rules of thumb that folks wanted to remember.
Bruce Mowbray: like sayings.
Bruce Mowbray: wisdom sayings, perhaps.
Bruce Mowbray: eventually those sayings become "orthodoxy" -- and "creed" -- and wars get fought, etc....
Darren Islar: yes, that is true, Buddha didn't write anything down, his disciples did
Bruce Mowbray: but I'm just tlking about the "origin" of the sayings themselves.

Qt Core: couldn't they come "from the other way" that is being a simplification of more complex theories, made easier to remember for the one good enough to know the deep meaning and "just as rules" for less educated people ?
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, qt.
Qt Core: thinking to the sin/virtues list in catholicism too
Darren Islar: right QT, but still it flies, since what Bruce means is how it started ... it started with the teachings of Buddha, then people who liked to remember those
Bruce Mowbray: H-He-Li-Be-B-C-N-O-F-Ne_Na_Mg-Al-Si-P-S-chlorine and kisses cats.
Bruce Mowbray: That's how I memorized the first 20 elements of the periodic table.
Qt Core: Hi Mick
Darren Islar: which is actually really the start of the religion, the religion itself didn't start with Buddha, it started off with a council
Darren Islar: hey Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Guys
Bruce Mowbray: H --hee li, beb, cannof, nena, m' gal, sips chlorine and kisses cats.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Mick.
Bruce Mowbray: What an auspicious arrival...
Darren Islar: Bruce?
Mickorod Renard: sorry, was that after sidhatha or before?

Darren Islar: Mick we are tallking about heuritics
Mickorod Renard: I dont know much about the origins
Bruce Mowbray: I have just given three of the ones I use, personally.
Darren Islar: the council was after the Buddha, there were three of them, they came together to learn from his disciples and start to write things down
Mickorod Renard: ty
Darren Islar: later on there were two other councils, with more writing and those are known as the tipitaka
Bruce Mowbray: Are you saying, Darren, that LISTS were not intentionally made for purposes of easier recall?
Darren Islar: or the three baskets
Darren Islar: no, I follow you there Bruce, as for the start of the religion itself, lists were made, yes
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Darren Islar: it's why I say it still flies, though Buddhism is about realizations, those can't be listed
Darren Islar: its' just 'there'
Bruce Mowbray: for sure...
Bruce Mowbray: The real spirit of any religion cannot be contained in its heuristics.
Bruce Mowbray: any more than the art of medicine can be contained in mnemonic devices for the memorization of cranial nerves, for example.
Qt Core: you may start to follow them until you get the underlying meaning ... become illuminated ?

--BELL--

Darren Islar: no, but the used techniques do, they are highly based on learning and habit ... exactly QT
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Qt Core: remind me about when i was learning limits in math class
Bruce Mowbray: Wasn't the Catholic rosary (and the mala beads of Hinduism, too) originally designed to be a memory device in prayer?
Mickorod Renard: is there a reason for using 'heuristics' or could it be metaphoricals?
Darren Islar: no it's to simply count the mantra's you do
Qt Core: so you can fall into it fully, not even having to count it
Darren Islar: as in stories which come to mind in some situations .. yes
Bruce Mowbray: counting is the purpose of Buddhist mala beads... (and probably Hindu, als), but the Catholic rosary has different pryers for different beads, I think.
Qt Core: so you wont start to count how many left ;-)
Darren Islar: but I guess that can be classified as a heuristic as well
Bruce Mowbray nods, I would consider the Catholic rosary to be a heuristic,, although I really don't know that miuch about it.
Darren Islar: I have no idea Bruce

Qt Core: the difference between the rosary prayers is showed by the distance between beads
Bruce Mowbray: !
Bruce Mowbray: Even a grocery list is a sort of heuristic.
Bruce Mowbray: hmm, really, Qt. Wow. I didn't know that.
Darren Islar: yes, you can wonder if life itself was possible without it, even animals have their habits, often learned
Qt Core: basically there are ten little intervals and five bigger, sometimes with same bead sizes sometime not
Mickorod Renard: facinating
Bruce Mowbray: When my wife and I married, we exchanged mala beads that we'd made for each other... putting the "necklace" of beads on each others' necks.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that is fascinating, Mick...
Darren Islar: hmmm .. nice
Mickorod Renard: nice
Bruce Mowbray: I want to learn more about the Catholic rosary.
Qt Core: wikipedia could help i presume ;-)
Darren Islar: well, we have an Italian in our midst
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I will look it up later -- after this session.
Qt Core: (i think i never handled a rosary, maybe i followed someone using one
Darren Islar: no, but I take it that within your culture you get into contact with it
Qt Core: yes, i have a big
Darren Islar: I'm brought up within protestants
Bruce Mowbray wonders if there was ever a Protestant rosary....
Darren Islar: *between
Qt Core: yes, i have a big "ornamental"one on a wall in my house too
Qt Core: (with beads half an inches wide at least)
Darren Islar: I don't think so Bruce, most of those things were 'distracting'

Bruce Mowbray: So to summarize my original point: because of my aging brain and my forgetfulness when distracted by something, I now use a heuristic to help me remember
Qt Core: i doubt that Brice, the rosary is all about Mary's cult, so don't think protestantism would approve
Bruce Mowbray: make a very small list.
Darren Islar nods to QT
Bruce Mowbray: then, after the distraction hs been taken care of, return to the list in my mind...
Bruce Mowbray: The "list" would almost never have more than three items.
Qt Core: a list in your mind or on paper ? was going to ask how you remember there is a list and where it was
Bruce Mowbray: in mind, only.
Bruce Mowbray: but I ALWAYS make lists when i go shopping.
Bruce Mowbray: I only go into town if I have three or more things to go in for....
Darren Islar: it's a way of programming yourself
Darren Islar: making it a habit
Bruce Mowbray: If I don't make the list, though, I might be going into town, say, to do laundry,m banking, and grocery shopping... but if I don't put ALL of those on the list, I would probably forget one... like forgetting to take the laundry.
Darren Islar: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I get to town (15 miles away) and suddenly remember that I'd forgotten to bring the laundry.
Bruce Mowbray: :((((
Bruce Mowbray: but if it's on the list... And if I remember to check that list before leaving the farm, then I'd remember the laundry.
Bruce Mowbray: See how much fun it is to get old?
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Qt Core: one of the few program in my smartphone i really use is a simple list manager ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Great idea!

--BELL--

Darren Islar: I'm afraid I need to go guys, already another appointment waiting
Bruce Mowbray: Time to be off.
Qt Core: it has special functions for grocery list too
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, everyone.
Mickorod Renard: bruce,,hold on
Mickorod Renard: a mom
Bruce Mowbray: kk. I will wait,,,
Mickorod Renard: he he ty
Darren Islar: see you next time folks, thanks :)
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Darren!
Mickorod Renard: just a quicky, I dont think I can make it tommorow
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Mickorod Renard: I mean Thursday
Mickorod Renard: dreams
Bruce Mowbray: yes, to Eliza's session.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Bruce Mowbray: kk, sry to hear that.
Mickorod Renard: but I have a dream I could leave just in case
Bruce Mowbray: but that's how it goes sometimes.
Bruce Mowbray: Great. would you like to give it to me?
Bruce Mowbray: I could share it with the group.
Mickorod Renard: yeh, would have liked to have not missed it
Bruce Mowbray: Well maybe someone else will have a dream...
Mickorod Renard: that would be very kind Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: I could ahve yours just in case...
Bruce Mowbray: have*
Mickorod Renard: fantastic
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, qt!
Mickorod Renard: bye QT
Qt Core: Bye all!
Bruce Mowbray: be well!
Bruce Mowbray: I also have a dream to share, but it's quite short.
Mickorod Renard: thats great,,mine is a bit long
Bruce Mowbray: kk, I have your dream now.
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Bruce Mowbray: "Gun shop"
Mickorod Renard: but if you are there play it by ear
Bruce Mowbray: kk, will do.
Mickorod Renard: yes, thats the one
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: I will have it in my inventory, just in case.
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,its not all about gun shops
Mickorod Renard: great,,there is a lil bit of sex in it too
Bruce Mowbray: Great!
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: ok,,that was it Bruce,,,are you keeping well?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I am well, ty.
Mickorod Renard: thats fantastic
Bruce Mowbray: But we've had WAYYYY too much rain recently.
Bruce Mowbray: my roof is leaking,m actually.
Mickorod Renard: yay, we tend to get what you get later
Bruce Mowbray: We've had only one day without rain in over a month.
Mickorod Renard: ouch,,my house in France leaked,,it was a huge roof done in roman tiles
Mickorod Renard: thats amazing Bruce...sounds like england,,or more so Ireland
Bruce Mowbray: I have fixed and fixed and fixed it, but it still leaks in place when the storms are very heavy.
Bruce Mowbray: places*
Mickorod Renard: yes, mine in France was bad if it was windy too
Bruce Mowbray: hmmm.
Mickorod Renard: it blew the rain up and in
Mickorod Renard: I just had lots of buckets in the end
Bruce Mowbray: I built this house 13 years ago, and the roof has always leaked... every though I put three new roofs on it.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, LOTS of buckets!
Mickorod Renard: what type of roof is it?
Bruce Mowbray: That is comforting to know, Mick.
Bruce Mowbray: It is too flat a roof...
Mickorod Renard: ahh
Bruce Mowbray: needs more of a slatnt to it.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Bruce Mowbray: metal roof.
Bruce Mowbray: kk, I should go now.
Mickorod Renard: now you can get these sheets to lay on first,,then tile on top
Mickorod Renard: ok,bye Bruce
Mickorod Renard: take care
Bruce Mowbray: maybe I should do that.
Bruce Mowbray: Take care!
Mickorod Renard: c u soon
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.