2010.09.11 19:00 - Abiding

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
Pema Pera: (sorry, a bit distracted while fine tuning Phoenix, which I just downloaded as my new viewer :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I've downloaded that, but not yet used it
Pema Pera: I really like it, and it was very easy to dowload and get configured
Pema Pera: almost no changes with respect to the original SL viewer
Eliza Madrigal: And don't worry... I don't need to be entertained :) Just happy to be here
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, maybe I should sign off and try...
Pema Pera: nono, I just finished!
Pema Pera: what is on your mind these days?
Pema Pera likes to ask general questions today . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: this and that
Eliza Madrigal: you?
Pema Pera: hehehe
Eliza Madrigal likes to respond in kind
Pema Pera: that's too easy!
Pema Pera scratches his head . . .
Eliza Madrigal: Actually, I really mean 'this and that'... I read a chapter of a book this morning in which the writer was focusing on our tendencies to see this vs that... in vs out... space vs object
Eliza Madrigal: :)

I offered another version of "this and that" :)

Pema Pera: actually, if I hadn't seen you typing busily, I would have given a similar response to your return question in the following way
Eliza Madrigal listens
Pema Pera: that I was struck this morning by the strange way in which I can be at the same time incredibly busy and yet also be in a world that is totally peaceful with no pressures at all
Pema Pera: so hard to put in words
Pema Pera: like being a citizen of two different worlds at the same time
Pema Pera: Doug used to talk about something similar
Pema Pera: and there seems to be no effort involved in switching between those two worlds/realms/modalities/angles
Pema Pera: and no distance to cross either, they feel like a hair breadth away from each other
Pema Pera: does that make some sense?
Eliza Madrigal: evenness then, yes... 'everything' included in
Pema Pera: a bit perhaps too like "space versus objects" as you just mentioned
Pema Pera: "crowded time versus timeless time"
Eliza Madrigal: yes!... yes this is also what I mused on a bit.... and relative/absolute in that from space all objects are open... whereas it can be too easy to try to define space from the view of objects...
Eliza Madrigal: capture and protect space somehow... silly
Pema Pera: I feel I'm learning more and more to sense and appreciate the enormous pressure and uncertainties and possible worries that we all labor under, and at the same time the fact that underneath/in/as all that there is the more fundamental space/openness/realm of total freedom/freshness . . . self-liberating in its very arising
Pema Pera: and yes, space/objects duality is very inspiring to contemplate, turning things around . . .
Eliza Madrigal: you're resting there... is that abiding?
--BELL--

On abiding and magic.

Pema Pera: yes, abiding is abiding and no more need for a me to do anything, not even abiding, something like that :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: For me I still swing...
Eliza Madrigal: back and forth.. forgetting one thing when in another...
Eliza Madrigal: however there are more and more moments and tastes of letting the swinging happen...
Eliza Madrigal: and resting in that in some way.
Eliza Madrigal: knowing, for instance that could I just let the swing, swing... then whatever I'm worrying about releases... but not quite carrying that over from day to day...
Pema Pera: yes, and then there is this other layer of sheer magic: that we can see more and more how there is this abiding underneath and in and as all and everything *even* when we don't look and seem to have forgotten it . . . it seems like too cheap a trick, but it really works when you look at things that way . . . amazing . . .
Eliza Madrigal: amazing, yes
Eliza Madrigal: I've been musing also a bit on your new chapter, though I've only read it once. I like the exercise though...
Pema Pera: when Tilopa says "rest" he really means rest -- no need to worry about not abiding, or trying to abide, or . . .
Pema Pera: oh, thank you!
Pema Pera: I wondered whether I offered too much freedom in the exercise
Pema Pera: too many options, like confusing software packages :)
Eliza Madrigal: haha, how so? say more?
Pema Pera: oh, I gave various descriptions, not just one
Pema Pera: I guess that didn't bother you?
Eliza Madrigal: Well each person may have a picture that floats up for them specifically...
Pema Pera: (for distant-in-time readers: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/5._Presence_as_Time)

I then quoted part of the text of the exercise/exploration in that chapter, toward the end.

Pema Pera: I was refering to the various versions in:
Pema Pera: "Appreciate the presence of appearance as Time" would be the simplest notion, that we can explore as our next piece of home work. Alternatively, we can also "appreciate the presence of appearance as given by Time" or "appreciate the presence of appearance as given as Time". The last sentence can be expanded a bit more as "appreciate the presence of appearance in the way it is given as Time."
Eliza Madrigal: Well, of course your chapters require more than one reading :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: For me, even the title was sufficient...
Eliza Madrigal: and then the rest unfolded it
Pema Pera: hahaha, let me tell you something (psssst):
Eliza Madrigal leans in
Pema Pera: I had a totally different title until the very moment that I posted the chapter on the wiki :)
Eliza Madrigal: !
Pema Pera: it was an afterthought
Pema Pera: but of course once it is posted it seems so natural and preconceived . . . .
Pema Pera: the wonders of print versus oral traditions . . . .
Pema Pera: and it does fit :)
Eliza Madrigal: there really is so much there.... Presence as Time
Eliza Madrigal: for me it rather relaxes the 'doing' of appreciation in some way
Pema Pera: ah, yes
Pema Pera: that's a great point
Pema Pera: hi druth!
druth Vlodovic: hi pema, eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
Pema Pera: so yes, it is Tilopa's "rest" again
Pema Pera: in the context of his "six words"
Pema Pera: in a way, everything is in there
Eliza Madrigal: everything is in the rest
Pema Pera: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilopa#Six_Words_of_Advice)
Eliza Madrigal: Very often, as soon as I sit for meditaion, one line of the 'six words' will float up... Usually "don't try to figure anything out"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: and don't make anything happen :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
--BELL--

Quick summary:

Pema Pera: Druth, we are talking about relaxing without trying to relax :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: too much tension in the expectation that one ought to be relaxing :)
Pema Pera: yes, and that is almost unavoidable
Pema Pera: do you have a suggestion about how to avoid that problem, perhaps, Druth?
druth Vlodovic: the six words looks good
Pema Pera: yes, though at first reading of course they don't make much sense :)
druth Vlodovic: how so?
Pema Pera: oh, suggesting to not examine anything, or not control anything, will strike most people as quite odd . . .
Eliza Madrigal: yes my ordinary mind first scoffs "What am I here for then if not to make anything happen?"
druth Vlodovic: since I can remember I'd do it at odd times as a way of controling tension
druth Vlodovic: though it certainly isn't a way of life for me :)
Pema Pera: haha, yes, "controlling tension" is what we tend to want to do . . . . but then the controlling attempts are what gives more tension, typically
druth Vlodovic: when you worry about success
druth Vlodovic: accept the possibility that failkure is not a disaster and it starts to fall into place
Pema Pera: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: I enjoyed one line of practice we went over in a kira workshop "Use disaster as a way to wake up"
druth Vlodovic: wake from what?
Eliza Madrigal: hah, yes there's the question :)
Pema Pera: you'd better come up with an answer, Eliza!
druth Vlodovic: use waking up as a way to deal with disaster
Eliza Madrigal: My mantra is 'don't try to figure anything out' remember...
druth Vlodovic: lol
--BELL--
Pema Pera: you don't have to figure it out for yourself, but the mantra may allow you to figure it out for us? :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Hah, well...
Eliza Madrigal: or slip through figuring it out
Pema Pera cups his hand behind his ear

Druth offered an interesting interpretation.

druth Vlodovic: "waking up" "shaking up" I suspect they are looking for ways to end complacency and routine, diseases of both a society of plenty, and a society of rigid and cerfully defined codes of conduct and thought
Pema Pera: yes, I think both aspects are involved
Pema Pera: and also waking up to the freedom we all have to turn away from that, whenever we want
Eliza Madrigal: (ah, sorry wasn't typing so much)
Pema Pera was wondering . . . :)
druth Vlodovic: lol, I turned blue holding my breath in anticipation
Pema Pera: hahaha
Eliza Madrigal: I was fielding IMs for a second and lost myself :)
Pema Pera: you'll have to make up something now, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not quite to the point of being completely busy and completely at peace yet...
Eliza Madrigal: like Pema :)
Pema Pera: o o . . .
Pema Pera: or:
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Pema Pera: O.o
Eliza Madrigal: @.@
Pema Pera: how does Wol do that again?
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is o.O
Pema Pera: O^o ?
druth Vlodovic: ??
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: oh, ways to raise an eyebrow
Pema Pera: in emoticons
druth Vlodovic: ^^
Pema Pera: (*^_^*)
Eliza Madrigal: Its the little things.... hehe >.<
druth Vlodovic: nice kitty pema
Pema Pera: anything that Eliza can use to skip having to respond hehehe

I could do better on the kitty front:

Pema Pera: =^+^=
Eliza Madrigal: la la la la
druth Vlodovic: we all must help one another after all
Eliza Madrigal: yes, thank you druth, very generous :))
Pema Pera: :-)
druth Vlodovic: I've been considering what similarities exist between the rigid east and busy prosperous west that we seek their solutions with such avidity
druth Vlodovic: solutions from their past, that is
Pema Pera: I think we need all the help we can get . . . .
Pema Pera: and looking at familiar problems through unfamiliar cultural ways is yet another way to shake us up
Pema Pera: I find it interesting sometimes to talk to those rather rare Japanese who have become Christian -- going the other way
Pema Pera: (about 1% of the population, I believe)
Pema Pera: hi Lucy!
druth Vlodovic: hi lucinda
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lucinda :)
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pema, druth,Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Sorry to leave just as you are getting here but I am so sleepy
Eliza Madrigal: I hope you are doing well?
Lucinda Lavender: yes
druth Vlodovic: what have you found?

I wish I had more time to answer druth's question more properly; next time?

Pema Pera: I'll have to get going soon too . . . . having skipped breakfast and it now being noon :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Glad :) And pretty new hair
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, not good Pema
Pema Pera: ah, you mean in talking with Christians in Japan, druth?
Lucinda Lavender: evening here...just ate dinner
druth Vlodovic: yes
druth Vlodovic: bye eliza
druth Vlodovic: have fun
Lucinda Lavender: see you soon...
Pema Pera: hmmm, many aspects, but mostly just the new angles
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Night, Thanks :)
Pema Pera: as in looking through a telescope from the other side.
Pema Pera: (sorry to have to leave, just as you came in, Lucinda!)
Lucinda Lavender: Pema, before you go, do you think you could tell me what happens when you try to claim a session? Since a change in viewer I have had a confusing time...
Lucinda Lavender: or may be druth?
Pema Pera: you click on the base of the fountain
Lucinda Lavender: ok
Pema Pera: have you done that before?
Lucinda Lavender: oh yes
Pema Pera: then choose "claim"
Lucinda Lavender: and since the new viewer it has not offered claim
Pema Pera: and then you should get the option to have the URL sent to you in an email
Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
Lucinda Lavender: yes of course...
Pema Pera: really?
Pema Pera: I don't know about the new viewer . . .
Lucinda Lavender: have done it several times before this new viewer
Pema Pera: perhaps Steve knows?
druth Vlodovic: hi steve
Lucinda Lavender: I will ask him...thanks tho
Lucinda Lavender: hi Steve
Pema Pera: sorry I can't help you further -- and if Steve doesn't know, it would be good to send an email to the PaB group
Pema Pera: hello and goodbye Steve!
Lucinda Lavender: ok good
Pema Pera: and bye druth, nice talking with you again!
druth Vlodovic: he needs lunch!
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm trying a new iphoneviewer
Pema Pera: bye Lucinda!
druth Vlodovic: take care of yourself pema
Lucinda Lavender: take care...
Pema Pera: thanks, likewise!
Lucinda Lavender: bye and thanks
Lucinda Lavender: well...