2010.09.23 19:00 - Death Becomes Us

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga. I substituted for Paradise tonight.

Something about the full moon or the equinox, or both brought out many new people tonight.  The topics discussed ranged from poetry, to the moon, to death and regional planning... enjoy

Hope McAlpine: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Hope and druth
Hope McAlpine: is it all right that I'm here ?
stevenaia Michinaga: ofcourse
Hope McAlpine: thank you
stevenaia Michinaga: I am sitting in for Paradise tonight who is not at a RL location w/ Internet
stevenaia Michinaga: *Paradise
Hope McAlpine: nods at Steven
stevenaia Michinaga: how are you Druth
druth Vlodovic: pretty good
druth Vlodovic: how's steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: I have been sitting here with Tibet for the past 20 minutes, what has your meditation been about Tibet?
stevenaia Michinaga: *about
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps when he returns he can tell us
druth Vlodovic: meditating too deeply :)
stevenaia Michinaga: is there such a place?
stevenaia Michinaga: is
stevenaia Michinaga: too deep?
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps is it those place that invites going top a deep place
stevenaia Michinaga: *THIS
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if there is such a place that improves tying :)
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: I think it's typo day in SL
stevenaia Michinaga: fir me it's more part of my nature
druth Vlodovic: hi neo
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Neo
stevenaia Michinaga: happy Rezz day as we call it here
NeoGeo Kwan: hi all
stevenaia Michinaga: welcome to SL, we record our conversations here and post them on the group's Wiki, is it ok if we post your comments
Ewan Bonham: Hiall..
druth Vlodovic: hi ewan
Hope McAlpine: hi Neo
Tibet Enzo: namate all
stevenaia Michinaga: I gave you a notecard with information about our group
NeoGeo Kwan: yeah no probs
stevenaia Michinaga: great, thanks
Tibet Enzo: do you know the footprints poem?
stevenaia Michinaga: how did you find our little group?
stevenaia Michinaga: n, Tibet, what is it?
Tibet Enzo: that's what i was meditating about...
NeoGeo Kwan: just arrived in this world 10mins ago
stevenaia Michinaga: please go on Tibet
Tibet Enzo:

Footprints in the Sand

One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.

Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky. In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand. Sometimes there were two sets of footprints, other times there was one only.

This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life, when I was suffering from anguish, sorrow or defeat, I could see only one set of footprints, so I said to the Lord, You promised me Lord, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always.

But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life there has only been one set of footprints in the sand. Why, when I needed you most, have you not been there for me?  

The Lord replied, The years when you have seen only one set of footprints, my child, is when I carried you.

Tibet Enzo: read it if you want...
stevenaia Michinaga: :), did you write that?
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Aphrodite
Tibet Enzo: oh no! actually no one is quite sure about its author...
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello
Hope McAlpine: hello Aphrodite
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Hope
Ewan Bonham: Hi aphro..
Aphrodite Macbain: Ewan :-)
Tibet Enzo: ...and by the way "Lord" should be perceived in a broad sense
stevenaia Michinaga: how did you come across that poem?
stevenaia Michinaga: hello gordon
druth Vlodovic: you haven't seen it before?
Tibet Enzo: was given to me by a very special friends in one of my worst moments...
Gordon Valeur: Hi May I sit down?
stevenaia Michinaga: we record our conversations here Gorgon, do you mind is we include your comments?
Tibet Enzo: its quite well known...you find it easily on the Internet....
--BELL--
Hope McAlpine: hi Gordon
druth Vlodovic: grab a seat gord
Gordon Valeur: Thank you! It's alright to record what I say!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Gordon, Pila, druth
Aphrodite Macbain: Has someone just delivered a poem?
stevenaia Michinaga: thx
Pila Mulligan: greetings Aphrodite and everyone (laggy here)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, let me repost it:
stevenaia Michinaga:

Tibet Enzo: Footprints in the Sand 

One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.

Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky. In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand. Sometimes there were two sets of footprints, other times there was one only.

This bothered me because I noticed that during the low periods of my life, when I was suffering from anguish, sorrow or defeat, I could see only one set of footprints, so I said to the Lord, You promised me Lord, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always.

But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life there has only been one set of footprints in the sand. Why, when I needed you most, have you not been there for me?  

The Lord replied, The years when you have seen only one set of footprints, my child, is when I carried you.

Aphrodite Macbain: beautiful !
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for sharing that
Hope McAlpine: is there a topic for tonight?
stevenaia Michinaga: I am rarely the one to appreciate poetry, but it does have a nice plot twist
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) steve
stevenaia Michinaga: not yet Hope, they usually preset themselves when the time is right
stevenaia Michinaga: *present
Hope McAlpine: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: It's fall equinox. everything should be in balance.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder why I'm not
Tibet Enzo: ..and as i said "lord" in the poem should be perceive in a broad sense rather just a religious one...
Hope McAlpine: I can always think of something .. just let me know
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you Tibet
Tibet Enzo: welcome
druth Vlodovic: we just passed the Chinese full moon festival, a time to look at the moon and think of absent family
Hope McAlpine: absent family under what circumstance ?
Aphrodite Macbain: Ah yes. what is the myth about the moon. I believe thre is a goddess involved somewhere
stevenaia Michinaga: everywhere
Aphrodite Macbain: ancestors?
Mollie Spot: and soon we will celebrate DÃ a de los Muertos
stevenaia Michinaga: it s also the Jewish harvest holiday
Hope McAlpine: I love Dia de los Muertos
druth Vlodovic: I think it is just that if everyone looks up at the moon at the same time then it creates a kind of togetherness, (pre-Internet I bet) :)
stevenaia Michinaga: relating more to the moon than the day of the month
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. this is a transitional time of year. apparently tied to the agricultural calendar when the fields are ploughed under and nature rests - at least in the northern hemisphere
Pila Mulligan: hmm, equinox plus a full moon :)
Ewan Bonham: And togetherness is like a large prayer..
Aphrodite Macbain: =?
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Ewan, missed your arrival
Aphrodite Macbain: (talking to Pila)
Mollie Spot: jung would be proud of the underlying human need to celebrate this time of year
Gordon Valeur: A person close to me says the full moon changes the weather!! I haven'[t been able to agree with that yet
Ewan Bonham: hi steve and all
Hope McAlpine: leaves falling... iar turning cold.. darkness become the ruler of the night... the stillness and quietness... almost to the point of dying
Hope McAlpine: * air
Hope McAlpine: changing
Aphrodite Macbain: rain, rain and more rain on this west wet coast
stevenaia Michinaga: seem you have to take your head out of one place and put it somewhere else to appreciate the equonox
Mollie Spot: but without the death, there will be no life in the spring
Hope McAlpine: nods at Mollie
Pila Mulligan: Aph: "Not since 1991 has a full moon occurred on the same night as the fall equinox, and it won't happen again until 2029, wrote astronomer Tony Phillips in a NASA announcement."
Hope McAlpine: oh!
Hope McAlpine: Wonder what is the interpretation for that ?
Ewan Bonham: What does that all mean?
Aphrodite Macbain: wow. Thanks. How curious that this is so.
Hope McAlpine: what does that mean ?
Ewan Bonham: is there some symbolism behind that?
stevenaia Michinaga: a nice day for balance
Hope McAlpine: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: doubts the sky will fall
Pila Mulligan: well, just another coincidence :)
Pila Mulligan: one of many in life it seems
druth Vlodovic: did everyone see Jupiter?
Aphrodite Macbain: I think so Pila - but a dramatic one. I can't even see the moon!
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, something worth taking not of, like all the other ones
Pila Mulligan: yes, lovely sight druth
Hope McAlpine: yeah but I think each change may represent something
stevenaia Michinaga: *note
Ewan Bonham: yes, Jupiter is very bright...almost a little moon..
Pila Mulligan: can you feel the full moon?
stevenaia Michinaga: there is an alignment of the planets as well
Hope McAlpine: feel?
Pila Mulligan: I feel it in dreams
Aphrodite Macbain: Must go again. Great to sit with you all for a while
Pila Mulligan: a different dream sense at full moons
stevenaia Michinaga: night Aphodite
Ewan Bonham: bye aphro..
Pila Mulligan: by Aph
Gordon Valeur: The moon seems bigger - closer to the equator!
druth Vlodovic: have fun aphrodite
Hope McAlpine: night Aphodite
Aphrodite Macbain: nite all
Hope McAlpine: let me ask..
Hope McAlpine: does the full moon play a significant role in a spiritual sense?
Pila Mulligan: for some people it does
Pila Mulligan: such as traditional lunar calendars
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: there are payers for the moon
stevenaia Michinaga: Prayers
druth Vlodovic: I was worried :)
Pila Mulligan: NASA paid a bundle for it too
stevenaia Michinaga: don;t have them handy
Gordon Valeur: I think the moon can act as a vehicle for mood change
--BELL--
Mollie Spot: the moon has an effect on the tides and animals, so in some sense it has some sort of energy, and since energy can never be created or destroyed just changed, it could be channeled into many things including spiritual energy
stevenaia Michinaga: http://telshemesh.org/water/jewish_cycles_of_the_moon_jill_hammer.html
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Marijo
Pila Mulligan: hi Marijo, welcome to Second Life
stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to have a seat
Gordon Valeur: Hello Marigo
Marijo Briand: no thanks
Pila Mulligan: and Mollie, welcome also (SL born yesterday :)
stevenaia Michinaga: ...dissappears...
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mollie Spot: coming and going like the seasons'
stevenaia Michinaga: seems the season changes brings out quite a few new faces.. speaking of coincidence
Mollie Spot: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: Hope , you said you may have a topic?
Hope McAlpine: ahh...
Hope McAlpine: yeah... kinda..
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Hope McAlpine: we have discussed about dying
Hope McAlpine: natures are changing
Hope McAlpine: getting darker and all
Hope McAlpine: and yet death are greatly fear among us
Hope McAlpine: why?
Mollie Spot: people always fear what they don't understand
Pila Mulligan: fear of death may vary in degree from one culture to the next
stevenaia Michinaga: you would think we would have the same fear of dreams
Gordon Valeur: Death means stopping! We'[re afraid of stopping!
Gordon Valeur: Hope
Hope McAlpine: yes?
druth Vlodovic: death of others carries a weight of separation, regret at time not spent
Hope McAlpine: physically yes....it stopped
Pila Mulligan: nice observation Gordon :)
Hope McAlpine: but our soul ?
Gordon Valeur: \And yet stillness is the foundation of our knowledge
Pila Mulligan: maybe the soul needs a body to move
Gordon Valeur: Anyway .. don't take my words as definitive. I'm coming across to categorical Sorry
Hope McAlpine: Gordon your point is valid
Gordon Valeur: Great!
stevenaia Michinaga: seems the closer you are to death, the less you fear is, thinking soldiers, and those very old who accept its inevitability
Hope McAlpine: slowly shake my head...
Hope McAlpine: I do not think that way Steven
stevenaia Michinaga: acceptance
Hope McAlpine: acceptance yes
Pila Mulligan: what's your thought Hope?
stevenaia Michinaga: when it is your time, you can choose to fear it or accept it
Hope McAlpine: fear vanished inter eyes of death .. among solder s? no...
stevenaia Michinaga: this is true with most things
Hope McAlpine: they do it because the passion of their desire to serve overpower their fear
Hope McAlpine: their fear of death
Hope McAlpine: I run police and fire memorial garden
Hope McAlpine: I Hear this often
druth Vlodovic: it's a balance, do you make the attainment more important than life, or life less important than the attainment?
Hope McAlpine: that would depend on a person to choose I think
Gordon Valeur: So ... I wonder if we can live with this fear .. accept the fear itself and watch is disappear!
Mollie Spot: it seams that my first life is calling me back, peace to you all until we meet again.
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Molie
druth Vlodovic: and mollie passes from us...
Hope McAlpine: be well Mollie :-)
Gordon Valeur: druth you said something = will you repeat it please
Pila Mulligan: bye Mollie
stevenaia Michinaga: druth Vlodovic: it's a balance, do you make the attainment more important than life, or life less important than the attainment?
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: one of the critical points in discussing death is the idea of a part of us -- such as a soul -- that does not end at death ... our view of that particular point helps define our view of dying
Hope McAlpine: do you think the media today somehow formed perspective on death ?
druth Vlodovic: I've been reading a book by the Dali Lama, interesting to read about a belief system that carefully avoids believing in a soul
Pila Mulligan: interesting idea from a 14th incarnation :)
druth Vlodovic: oh, I was thinking of religions and government propaganda, with the previous bit
druth Vlodovic: it has to do with a bit of him relocating during the process of dying, kind of confusing
Pila Mulligan: Hope, what would be your answer to the question about media defining death?
Hope McAlpine: well...
Gordon Valeur: I think if I recognize the limits of knowledge and recognize the traps I can get into with language, 'soul' and 'death' can be great big traps!
Hope McAlpine: I think society's concern with maintianing youth
Hope McAlpine: and somehow that made it more difficult to accept death
Pila Mulligan: true
druth Vlodovic: "corruption"
Pila Mulligan: :)
Gordon Valeur: I think life is essentially a mystery! :)
Gordon Valeur: And with life , so with death
druth Vlodovic: I fund that the Christian ceremonies around it actually made things harder, rather than easier
Hope McAlpine: druth... there are all kind of christiany...
stevenaia Michinaga: Although not near death experience , I was in an auto accident once where I could have died, but the process of wrangling my are off a wet road eventually let me to be upside down in a corn field with not one bit of adrenalin, however once upside down I had two thoughts as the roof began to cave in under the weight of the car and the front window began to break, one was... SHE*T NOW , after all that I'm going to die (crushed) standing still? Upside down?, the other was... look at how clean the floor is, as all the mess that was on the floor was now on the ceiling?
Hope McAlpine: it would be difficult to clump it together and same the same perspective
Pila Mulligan: bye
Pila Mulligan: Ewan
Ewan Bonham: night all!
druth Vlodovic: Anglican, though the chaplain at the hospital was no great shakes either,
druth Vlodovic: what a time for an advertisement
Tibet Enzo: we do not accept death because in a very egocentric way it causes us unbearable pain while it may be a path for those that leave...
Gordon Valeur: Yes! I agree. druth! All kinds of stuff comes of this
Pila Mulligan: Steve's upside down world ... glad to see you escaped it
Gordon Valeur: Religion seems to be at service to this business of death
stevenaia Michinaga: thx Pila
druth Vlodovic: lol, I've heard stories, strangely relevant to our location, of people who thought they were about to die suddenly seeing the world with crystal clarity
Gordon Valeur: Steven: I was in an accident in a VW. The battery used to be housed under the back seat. I remember most how the battery was rattling around in the back seat. Expected to get acid all over me
stevenaia Michinaga: mine was a VW too
Gordon Valeur: A bit of clarity for me
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes it's nice when expectations aren;t met
Gordon Valeur: You got it. that's when things are great!
Tibet Enzo: religion is a tool that allows people to overcome their limitations and despair
Gordon Valeur: \for me....
stevenaia Michinaga: and me, not being crushed to death
Gordon Valeur: Tibet ... I think that's a pretty good statement!
Tibet Enzo: thanks G
stevenaia Michinaga: you speaking of organized religion, Tibet?
Tibet Enzo: not at all. i'm very critic about organized religions....
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: it can tibet, I just found myself filled with rage that they seemed to be using the occasion to promote their creed, and tell everyone to be full of despair if they didn't cling hard to it, a very negative way of promoting themselves, and hoplessly opportunistic
Tibet Enzo: ...and i prefer "belief" to "religion" in the sense that the 2nd leads to alienation...
Tibet Enzo: ...control and narrow minded beings
druth Vlodovic: not that I was thinking clearly at the time :)
Tibet Enzo: sa creative beings, we're allowed to develop mind frames that help us to overcome our limitations, frustrations and fears...
Hope McAlpine: excuse me.. I'm afraid I must run now
Hope McAlpine: good night to all :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Hope
druth Vlodovic: cya hope
stevenaia Michinaga: join us again
Tibet Enzo: bye hope (love your name!)
Pila Mulligan: bye Hope
Hope McAlpine: thank you :-)
Hope McAlpine: * waves bye bye *
druth Vlodovic: I hate to say goodbye to her for that reason lol
Gordon Valeur: Help Everyones going!!!
Tibet Enzo: so do i!
Gordon Valeur: Good bye all you guys that gotta go
stevenaia Michinaga: night tibet
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for returning
Tibet Enzo: but it's not "goodbye"..just "see you soon"
druth Vlodovic: I hope I haven't offended anyone irreparably
Pila Mulligan: may I please add a poem to the log?
druth Vlodovic: 'night tibet, gordon
Tibet Enzo: goodnight Steve...
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Mona
Tibet Enzo: safe pathes to all
Gordon Valeur: nite
Pila Mulligan: ... one of my favorites, done it here before ...
Pila Mulligan: Empty Infinity -- Without beginning, without end, Without past, without future. A halo of light surrounds the world of the law. We forget one another, quiet and pure, altogether powerful and empty. The emptiness is irradiated by the light of the heart and of heaven. The water of the sea is smooth and mirrors the moon on its surface. The clouds disappear in blue space; the mountains shine clear. Consciousness reverts to contemplation; the moon disk rests alone.
stevenaia Michinaga: I would not worry, Druth
Pila Mulligan: bye Tibet
stevenaia Michinaga: nice Pila
stevenaia Michinaga: yours?
Pila Mulligan: it is at the end of Wilhelm's translation of the Secret of the Golden FLower
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: how's your practice doing these days?
stevenaia Michinaga: was just at tai chi tonight, found out a friend and his wife are joining the class
Pila Mulligan: nice
stevenaia Michinaga: the was the recent chairperson of the Regional Planning Commission, I am the current Chairperson, he is a socialist and professor
Pila Mulligan: sounds cool to me
Pila Mulligan: I find it funny that people get so bent over the idea of so-called socialized medicine
stevenaia Michinaga: he told be the executive director who is quite old does tai chi, this makes much sense knowing him for quite a few years
stevenaia Michinaga: I agree, Pila
Pila Mulligan: doing tai chi certainly has helped me get older
Pila Mulligan: keeps things less rigid
stevenaia Michinaga: he is a very flexible thinker
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: has been the executive director for decades
stevenaia Michinaga: commands great respect
Pila Mulligan: planning is an essential element of civilization too
stevenaia Michinaga: yet is a wonderful cynic
Pila Mulligan: Hawaii has suffered for a lack of it
Pila Mulligan: in many places
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: Pennsylvania requires it but does not require anyone to follow it
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: mind if I use that line in the upcoming budget hearings on Monday?
Pila Mulligan: not at all
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Pila Mulligan: actually the essential idea is simple organization, at a land use level
Pila Mulligan: organized building
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: I know it well
Pila Mulligan: and the interesting thing is that by the end of this century I bet it will be organized restoration -- i.e., unbuilding
Pila Mulligan: we will eventually have more buildings than we want
stevenaia Michinaga: getting close to that now, maybe not to many buildings, but many not in an appropriate place
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: or appropriate uses
stevenaia Michinaga: everyone concerned about value, not utility
stevenaia Michinaga: future value
Pila Mulligan: making more buildings has been driven by population growth -- tons of money has been made just from satisfying that demand
stevenaia Michinaga: preventing appropriate uses if it devalues theirs
Pila Mulligan: but as population numbers begin to decline there will be a reverse demand
Pila Mulligan: ... making more natural spaces
Pila Mulligan: spaces*
stevenaia Michinaga: fuel costs can also severely impact building placement
Pila Mulligan: hmm, how so?
stevenaia Michinaga: cost of heating and cooling distant homes and the cost of getting from the home to places of employment and commerce (shopping)
Pila Mulligan: I see
stevenaia Michinaga: if you can walk to work, why would you spend hugh sums to commute
stevenaia Michinaga: the trick is to get the desirable homes near the workplace
Pila Mulligan: walking or biking anywhere you need to go on a regular rbasis would be the ideal
stevenaia Michinaga: I used to walk to work for 8 years
Pila Mulligan: cool
Pila Mulligan: I walk to work now (in the next room:)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: when wife broke her leg, she commuted across the hall to her office
Pila Mulligan: :) it is easy
stevenaia Michinaga: no lossed time
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: and saves gas, as you just noted
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, sometimes I do walk or ride bike to the supermarket, or take the bus to work
stevenaia Michinaga: not often enough, ofcourse
stevenaia Michinaga: according to google, I can ride my bide to work along a canal that runs between the two citied, and if I can ride back , our busses have bike racks
stevenaia Michinaga: there are options
Pila Mulligan: that's nice
Pila Mulligan: bike racks
stevenaia Michinaga: on the outside of the busses
Pila Mulligan: well, speaking of waking, Ithink I will go do the same before it gets dark here
Pila Mulligan: alking* :)
Pila Mulligan: w*
stevenaia Michinaga: night plia
Pila Mulligan: maybe waking too
Pila Mulligan: nite Steve, nice to see you
stevenaia Michinaga: (what to name this session....
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: nigth Pila
Pila Mulligan: peace