2011.04.14 01:00 - Independent Thought or Tradition?

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Alfred Kelberry and myself.

We mostly talked about how much weight we should give to teachings and handed down traditions versus how much independent thinking we should do:

Alfred Kelberry: zen-san :)
Zen Arado: Hi Boxy :)
Alfred Kelberry: your session?
Zen Arado: how are you this morning?
Zen Arado: yep
Alfred Kelberry: not bad
Alfred Kelberry: i have to go in a bit
Alfred Kelberry: thought i'd pop in
Zen Arado: sure
Zen Arado: not many coming last week or so
Zen Arado: too many meetings maybe
Alfred Kelberry: i see the prayers wheels from here
Zen Arado: prayer wheels
Zen Arado: ?
Alfred Kelberry: is it like a wheel of fortune?
Zen Arado: place I am going to this weekend has prayer wheels
Alfred Kelberry: neat :)
Zen Arado: a big Tibetan temple in Scotland
Zen Arado: I don't understand the need for them though
Alfred Kelberry: what are they for?
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Zen Arado: beats me
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: do they make any sound while spinning?
Zen Arado: lots of things crept into Tibetan Buddhism from other Tibetan religions I guess
Zen Arado: no
Zen Arado: remember there were two rows of them
Zen Arado: and you gave them as push as you went past them
Zen Arado: there's no God to pray to in Buddhism
Zen Arado: people seem to need them
Alfred Kelberry: yes, apparently
Zen Arado: I am more into Zen
Alfred Kelberry: there were no monks in dharma teachings either
Zen Arado: depends how you define 'monk' I guess
Alfred Kelberry: religious symbolics was added later on as dharma practice traveled the lands
Zen Arado: a monk is someone who leaves home to devote themselves exclusively to the teachings
Zen Arado: oh yes
Zen Arado: Buddhism has changed and adapted itsef to different cultures
Zen Arado: is still changing
Zen Arado: there is a kind of Catholic Buddhism developing in Ireland I think
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i don't think the early texts say anything about devotion to teachings
Zen Arado: you confess your sins to Buddha (only kidding)
Alfred Kelberry: heh, catholic buddhism :)
Alfred Kelberry: that's lovely. i like how open buddha teaching is :)
Zen Arado: in fact there is a sutra which specifically warns against following teachers and authorities and teachings
Alfred Kelberry: zen, ah, yes
Zen Arado: and tells peole to test any teaching in their own experience
Zen Arado: the Kalama sutra
Alfred Kelberry: a person who's entered into the path becomes independent of others in the buddhist teaching - like that :)
Alfred Kelberry: i feel much closer to this notion
Zen Arado: I wouldn't go that far
Alfred Kelberry: to the early texts where religion is not present
Zen Arado: you wouldn't even have the teaching if others hadn't passed it down
Zen Arado: and we need the support of others in our practice
Zen Arado: but we must still think and investigate for ourselves whether the teachings are valid in our lives
Alfred Kelberry: you can have it, but you don't "need" one
Zen Arado: "Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them."
Zen Arado: I am wary of lone individual kind of iinvestigations
Zen Arado: we exist as communities
Zen Arado: and are very interconnected with everyone else
Zen Arado: Hi Observerm :)
Zen Arado: that's why I don't like Kant
Alfred Kelberry: it doesn't exclude community. it merely says do not follow one lead. think for yourself.
Zen Arado: or individualist type philosophies
Zen Arado: oh yes
Zen Arado: we don't have to follow the herd
Zen Arado: but we must remember we are not separate form others either
Zen Arado: but why should we start from scratch every generation if others have thought and tried great ideas already?
Alfred Kelberry: not separate, but independent
Zen Arado: trouble is that nowadays there is so much out there we don't have time to investigate it all
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: but are we independent?
Zen Arado: we are so dependent on others for everything
Alfred Kelberry: re: from scratch - we don't, we investigate various ideas and then come to our own conclusion
Zen Arado: think of the vast chain needed to bring food to supermarkets for us
Zen Arado: yeh but even in science we build on the ideas of others
Zen Arado: Isaac Newton said he had only stood on the shoulders of giants
Alfred Kelberry: but it's also important to ponder the fundamentals
Zen Arado: oh yes of course
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i think you take it too literally

Zen Arado: maybe
Alfred Kelberry: ah! time... sorry, i really have to go
Alfred Kelberry: enjoy the contemplative hour :)
Alfred Kelberry: it's been a nice talk
Zen Arado: sure boxy
Zen Arado: thanks for stopping by