2011.04.28 07:00 - Learning about friendship while counting teaspoons

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Storm Nordwind adjusts the help menu (type /9help while round the pool) to include the new /9grass command, while sitting quietly by himself in the pavilion.
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: The westering sun brightens the pavilion and the surrounding wisteria. Each breath passes...
Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
Alfred Kelberry: stormy-san :)
Storm Nordwind: Hello Boxy-puppy
Alfred Kelberry: where is everyone?
Alfred Kelberry: hide and seek maybe
Storm Nordwind: I think I've frightened them away
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: btw, are you on the -wiki list?
Storm Nordwind: yes
Alfred Kelberry: ok
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: so, no one has shown up?
Storm Nordwind: It happens occasionally, even at this time of day

Alfred wants to clarify something about friendship that came up in a previous session.

Alfred Kelberry: i had a topic in mind to discuss... which i forgot
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps - deep in the cosmos - there is a reason for amnesia :)
Alfred Kelberry: yea
Alfred Kelberry: um...
Alfred Kelberry: may i ask what happened when you were 44 (i think) regarding your friendship?
Storm Nordwind widens his eyes and smiles
Storm Nordwind: Yes sure...
Alfred Kelberry: it's kind of alarming to hear :)
Storm Nordwind: Alarming?
Alfred Kelberry: well, maybe friendship just changes and it doesn't mean that it's been faked or not real for many years
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps so
Storm Nordwind: But when the sun rises, you no longer need to wander round looking for it with a candle! :)
Alfred Kelberry: um...
Alfred Kelberry: i wonder how did you know it wasn't real?
Storm Nordwind: Only by comparison with what was newly discovered
Alfred Kelberry: ah

The economy of friendship?

Alfred Kelberry: a lot of friendhips are economy-based
Storm Nordwind: Are they? I can't say I've noticed that. Can you explain?
Alfred Kelberry: if you can't provide a "friend" with something, you become less of a "friend"
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: What if you "provide" for everyone, without distinction? Who then are the friends?
Alfred Kelberry: well, you always provide something, otherwise there's no connection
Alfred Kelberry: be it emotions or money :)
Storm Nordwind: So perhaps you're saying friendship doesn't exist unless you provide something that the other person thinks they "need"?
Alfred Kelberry: yep
Alfred Kelberry: the question is how conscious it is
Storm Nordwind: from which side?
Alfred Kelberry: both sides
Alfred Kelberry: maybe when you start analyzing and put conscious control over it, then it becomes less of a friendship
Alfred Kelberry: more of a partnership
Storm Nordwind: Not necessarily. Reflection works for some people in smoothing over rough bits in their own behavior.

To be sad, or be inspired?

Alfred Kelberry: well, i'd be very sad to discover that my friend(s) is not a friend when i'm 44
Storm Nordwind: I was not sad.
Storm Nordwind: Quite the reverse
Storm Nordwind: Hello druth
druth Vlodovic: hi
Alfred Kelberry: well, i don't know the details
Alfred Kelberry: druth :)
Alfred Kelberry: nice of you to join us :)
Storm Nordwind: When you swim in the shallows for your whole life, it's all the world you know. When you suddenly discover that it's just part of a wider ocean, it doesn't make you feel sad about the shallows; instead you rejoice that there's a wider whole!
Alfred Kelberry: hmm
druth Vlodovic: fun scary, like a roller coaster
Alfred Kelberry: if you put it in a scientific context it sounds inspiring
Alfred Kelberry: but friendship...
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: I hadn't thought of it as a "scientific context"! :) Just the way I see things. Life is full of wonder and discovery. Even the bits I may not like much. :)

Dropping the illusion of friendship.

Alfred Kelberry: i agree, but life's discoveries are not always joyful
Alfred Kelberry: not when one loses a friend, i'd think
Storm Nordwind: I never said anything about losing a friend. I was speaking of losing the illusion of friendship.
Alfred Kelberry: ah...
Alfred Kelberry: do you think it exists?
Storm Nordwind: what?
Alfred Kelberry: friendship
Storm Nordwind: Sure it does! Until I was 44 I just thought I knew what it was. After that point I was able to learn a little more. :)
Alfred Kelberry: so, you've learned it was an illusion?
Storm Nordwind: No. I learned my idea of it (and so many others it seemed) up to that point was illusory. I indulged in that illusion and so did others. It was all they had. They didn't discover anything better.
Alfred Kelberry: when did this realization come to you?
Storm Nordwind: When I discovered a relationship - a friendship - that put the other relationships in perspective.
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry feels sad for so many who never get to discover it
Alfred Kelberry feels happy for stormy :)
Storm Nordwind: It is the same perhaps with love and marriage! :)
Alfred Kelberry: it is with a lot of things

Would you know something was wrong?

Alfred Kelberry: but then, if you never knew, you would be just fine :)
Storm Nordwind: You would think you were fine, just like you were programmed to think so! :)
druth Vlodovic: generally you know something's wrong
Storm Nordwind: in time
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: i mean, if you never knew the difference, how would you know?
Alfred Kelberry: when there's no difference between pain and pleasure, it's all the same
Storm Nordwind: I expect not everyone would ever know. It's like having a sense or talent that not everyone else does. Some people live their lives with it. But if you *could* know, I think (as druth intimated) you'd get a sense of unease that some part of you was not being fulfilled - eventually!
druth Vlodovic: you convince yourself that there isn't a problem, but you can still feel it even after you train yourself not to
Alfred Kelberry: well, i think most people don't have a problem with feeling uneasiness in this world :)
Alfred Kelberry: convince?
Alfred Kelberry: how can you convince yourself of something you don't know?
druth Vlodovic: hi hokon
Hokon Cazalet: hiya
Alfred Kelberry: hokon :)

An innate capacity to know or learn?

druth Vlodovic: you are born with the capacity to know
Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
Storm Nordwind: Convince: if you can't find what you're looking for, sometimes you convince yourself it doesn't exist, and you settle (perhaps needlessly) for second-best.
Alfred Kelberry: you first have to experience it (just like stormy did)
Alfred Kelberry: you're born with the capacity to learn
Storm Nordwind: some are
Storm Nordwind: I'm not convinced all are! ;)
druth Vlodovic: they learn notto learn
Storm Nordwind: I have known plenty of people who either cannot learn in some areas, or who are frightened of the consequence of learning.
Alfred Kelberry: druth, can you explain the innate capacity to know?
Alfred Kelberry: storm... yes
druth Vlodovic: if you didn't know that friendship could exist you'd never miss it, as you said, but people do, they feel it dep inside
druth Vlodovic: just some are better at covering over
Storm Nordwind: I suspect Boxy is wondering how you could know that all people can know. :)
druth Vlodovic: well, it's the burden of being omniscient
Alfred Kelberry: i wonder how a new born can know something :)
Hokon Cazalet: well we either have an innate ability to learn or we do not; if we do not, then would could not learn anythying as we could not learn the ability to learn; since we can learn something, we had an innate ability to learn
druth Vlodovic: new borns come knowing things, and they have personalities as well
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Alfred Kelberry: hokon, everyone does. some just decide not to.
Storm Nordwind: That sounds rather black or white Hokon. Your ability might be fragmented in different areas.
Hokon Cazalet: id agree alfred, with many its a choice or their capicity to learn is not as strong as others
Alfred Kelberry: druth, they acquire personalities
Hokon Cazalet: i never mentioned specific storm, and it is black and white: either you have the ability to learn something, or youll never learn at all
druth Vlodovic: you have kids?
Hokon Cazalet: unless you get brain surgery i guess
druth Vlodovic: (I know it sounds like a cheap shot, but it does make a difference)
Alfred Kelberry: ah, unbeatable argument :)
Storm Nordwind: Some people have the ability to learn in some areas and never in others.
Hokon Cazalet: that doesnt impact my argument storm, as it referred to learning in general, or learning anything
Hokon Cazalet: i didnt use it to imply i could learn anything
Storm Nordwind shrugs
druth Vlodovic: learning is change, all things change
druth Vlodovic: capacity is much bigger than we realize, but sometimes it is smaller than that of others
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
Hokon Cazalet: hehe

Are there keys to learning most anything?

druth Vlodovic: there are differences between people, and some people lack the abilty to learn specific things
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i think they lack motivation
Alfred Kelberry: given time and effort, on average, we can learn most things
Storm Nordwind: Not sure Boxy. I have had LOTS of motivation to learn about financial matters - accounting etc. - but I am very poor at doing so!
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: may i ask of the source of your motivation?
druth Vlodovic: money!
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: no wonder he failed then :)

Differences between subjects for learning.

Storm Nordwind: And the difference (I discovered many years ago) between that and, say, natural sciences, is that financial matters are based on artibrary rules that can be changed next week, whereas as sciences can be deduced from first principles
Hokon Cazalet: there has to be limits, i mean like my smartest cat is at the level of a 2-3 yr old forever, she seems unable to progress further; im sure there's general limits for our species, then limits per person
druth Vlodovic: oh? and how are you at catching mice?
Hokon Cazalet: thats a practical matter, if i had trained myself since birth im sure id be good at it, if not, it's not cuz of my brain but my body's structures
Alfred Kelberry: stormy, there are first principles in economy as well. a lot of human factor though :)
Storm Nordwind: Motivation? Running a company. The tax man. Needing to help others. Taking the role of Kira Institute Treasurer! ;)
Hokon Cazalet: actually "first principles" and deduction is more how metaphysics works; natural science is inductive but . . . id agree economics isnt scientific in either sense
Hokon Cazalet: hehe storm
Alfred Kelberry: so, a career?
Hokon Cazalet: you still got people advocating trickle down economics when that got empirically debunked in the 1930s
Alfred Kelberry: i think perelman would have problems understanding finances too
Storm Nordwind: Who is that?
Alfred Kelberry: yet i'm sure he has the ability
Alfred Kelberry: math guy

An example of differences between subjects.

Storm Nordwind: When I got my private pilot's license (over 20 years ago) I had to take 10 exams. (Now I believe it's 11.) I got 95%+ for all exams - except one for which I got 90%. That bad one was "Air Law" ... for the same reason as before - that it was memorizing lots of arbitrary stuff.
Hokon Cazalet: yeah i have problems with that, i like to know the essences of things, the essential relations (why i love math)
Alfred Kelberry: ah, so we had a carpet ride with a certified pilot! :)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
--BELL--
Hokon Cazalet: im scared of flying
Storm Nordwind smiles and nods
Hokon Cazalet: i know there's a physics explanation why airplanes work, but i always feel they should hit the ground . . . same with bicycles, why i never ride them; they seem to work by magic! (yes with all my attempts at being smart, i still in the end, follow my feelings :Þ )
Alfred Kelberry: people fall as well :)
Hokon Cazalet: id feel safer in a rocket-ship
Hokon Cazalet: hehe

Prior familiarity!

Storm Nordwind: Bicycles are indeed magic. Only certified magicans can ride them - though they're allowed to qualify in previous lives. :)
Hokon Cazalet: !
Hokon Cazalet: that explains it
Hokon Cazalet: i never qualifgied in my previous life
Hokon Cazalet: being a janitor
Alfred Kelberry: i'm on a practical side with planes. it simply saves a lot of time.
Hokon Cazalet: (hehe everyone in past-life regressions are always famous people, wouldnt most of us had been boring nobodies?)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: yes it does
Alfred Kelberry: i do have my concerns too though
Storm Nordwind was not knowingly Cleopatra in a previous life :)
Hokon Cazalet: lol thatd be funny being a different sex
Alfred Kelberry: or a robodog
Hokon Cazalet: it'd suck if you learned you were adolf hitler
Storm Nordwind: Oh I'd have no problem with previous lives as male or female
Hokon Cazalet: me either =)
Alfred Kelberry: there's no past life sadly
Hokon Cazalet: id just find it amusing
Storm Nordwind: I can categorically state that I was not Adolf Hitler
Hokon Cazalet: yeah i dont believe in reincarnation myself, dunno, maybe its true, but
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: i'd be pleasantly surprised if it was
Hokon Cazalet: given my interests, and why i pursue them, i suspect (if past lives are real), i was a preist, or some vagrant making money illegally
Hokon Cazalet: hehe me too
Hokon Cazalet: though id wanna know who i was
Storm Nordwind: Why would you want to know? What would you do with the information?
Hokon Cazalet: wb druth =)
druth Vlodovic: thanks
Storm Nordwind: Welcome back druth
Hokon Cazalet: hehe alfred
Hokon Cazalet: id use the info to help inform me on who i am, lets me know alot more of my life-narrative that was hidden from me, yet was propelling me

Questioning a creator.

Alfred Kelberry: my first question to "god" would be: what was before the big bang? :)
Alfred Kelberry: i assume he would have no answer for "why are we here"
Hokon Cazalet: i like history, i see history as a spiritual kinda thing, sorta
Alfred Kelberry: history is awesome
Hokon Cazalet: "I dunno what happened, I had somebody else make the universe" - God
Storm Nordwind: As the Buddha is reported to have said, Alfred, perhaps you need to deal with being happy and removing your suffering before working out where the universe came from :)
Alfred Kelberry: so much peculiar stuff that haunts us to this day
Alfred Kelberry: hokon! :)
Alfred Kelberry: no, that would be a major bummer
Hokon Cazalet: yeah, in some ways i find it cool a lot of history has been lost, it adds mystery to all we do
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
druth Vlodovic: best to do all things at once, gives a more balanced life
Alfred Kelberry: stormy :)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, history in many ways is an interpretation
Hokon Cazalet: yeah cuz we cant go back and see what actually happened
Alfred Kelberry: especially early history with so few sources
Hokon Cazalet: yup

Mysteries and self-reliance.

druth Vlodovic: I prefer mysteries that arise from having information, and investigating things
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Hokon Cazalet: me too
druth Vlodovic: mysteries that come from not knowing stuff that was known seems artificial
Alfred Kelberry: huh?
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe

Learning from the past.

Alfred Kelberry: can you please explain, druth?
druth Vlodovic: somebody once chided me for wanting to rely on my own resources and ignore the thinkers of the past, she called it "arrogant" :)
--BELL--
Hokon Cazalet: i dont think its arrogant, i just find it unwise, if every generation reinvents the wheel we wont make any progress . . . contrary-wise, your a new mind with a different perspective that needs to be cultivated into it's own as well, if we stay in the shadows of the past, we wont progress either
Storm Nordwind: You can draw on both though
Hokon Cazalet: thats what i believe one should do
Alfred Kelberry: stormy, buddha approach :)
Storm Nordwind: History repeats itself because no one listens the first time :)
Alfred Kelberry: i wonder if wars will cease to exist one day
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps when those that can do war cease to exist?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, most likely
Alfred Kelberry: humanity
Alfred Kelberry: red giant will eat us

Vast time scales; vast distances.

Hokon Cazalet: yup, the sun will get hungry in a few billion years
Hokon Cazalet: and puff out
Hokon Cazalet: though the sun's radiation levels in 500 million years will (probably) too high to support life
druth Vlodovic: in the meanwhile we have been making progress, it is easy to forget that
Hokon Cazalet: yup =)
Alfred Kelberry: yet i think we'll go extinct way before that
Hokon Cazalet: i think humans in some form will make it out there into space
Hokon Cazalet: but thats cuz i got fuzzy feelings :Þ
Alfred Kelberry: it's funny how we're unable to relate to huge time spans
Hokon Cazalet: yeah
Alfred Kelberry: like 500 millions years
Alfred Kelberry: it's just a number for us really
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Alfred Kelberry: i'd like to live a few thousand years though
Hokon Cazalet: i like how in astronomy that dont measure the distance between planets in terms of miles, but in terms of the distance from the sun to the earth (astronomical unit - AU); makes it easier to grasp the solar system
druth Vlodovic: we ned big international meetings, inviting everyone
Hokon Cazalet: me too
druth Vlodovic: and every half hour someone will yell
druth Vlodovic: onigokko
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
druth Vlodovic: stop
Hokon Cazalet: =(
Hokon Cazalet: it ended =(
druth Vlodovic: hehe, you don't think that would work?
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
druth Vlodovic: it is always waiting in the wings for people to wake it up
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Alfred Kelberry: light years is a nice measure :)
Hokon Cazalet: yup =)
Hokon Cazalet: its sad that the nearest star in 4 light years away =(
Hokon Cazalet: is*
druth Vlodovic: better than 4 heavy years
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: 8 minutes :)
Hokon Cazalet: lol alfred
Hokon Cazalet: there ya go with that fancy copernican view of the solar system, i say the sun is made of aether!

Question: How many teaspoons in a cubic parsec?
Answer: 1 cubic parsec = 5.96074924 × 10^54 US teaspoons!
... and other silliness ...

Storm Nordwind remembers getting his first UNIX system 25 years ago and using the "units" program to find the number of teaspoons in a cubic parsec :)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Alfred Kelberry counts
Alfred Kelberry: wow
Hokon Cazalet: thats funny, my calculator can do stuff you needed huge computers to do decades ago
Alfred Kelberry: what system was it, stormy?
Storm Nordwind: Boxy - some things improve with age, but not my memory :)
Alfred Kelberry: eh
Hokon Cazalet: if i did my math right, i got 1.7x10^53 teaspoons in a cubic light year (oh he did parsec)
Hokon Cazalet: i wonder what hand-held devices will do in a few decades . . .
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Hand-held will be passé. Museum pieces. Implants will be more fashionable.
Hokon Cazalet: hehe probably so =)
druth Vlodovic: just try taking it back tot he shop
Hokon Cazalet: like in the deus ex games, infolink - cell phone in your brain
Hokon Cazalet: lol druth
druth Vlodovic: for power you could attach a mini turbine to your bloodstream
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: instead of water power, blood power
Hokon Cazalet: actually thats a cool idea
Storm Nordwind: Dropping the power every 15 minutes... "Here comes another 9 second black-out..."
druth Vlodovic: finally, a practical application of blood magic
Hokon Cazalet: lol druth
Storm Nordwind: I'd rather attach it to someone else's bloodstream thank you very much :)
Alfred Kelberry: stormy, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ory-simple.png
Alfred Kelberry: probably system v
druth Vlodovic: storm, tying people down to recharge his cellphone
Hokon Cazalet: ol
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Boxy, but top-level only. For example, I have no clue how the SCO-UNIX I used a couple of years after the teaspoons thing fits into that diagram
Hokon Cazalet: techno-vampires!
Hokon Cazalet: brb i lost something of mine
Alfred Kelberry: did you work on pdp11?
Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
Hokon Cazalet: found it
druth Vlodovic: um, good
Storm Nordwind: I did work on a PDP11 in 1971, but never with UNIX
Alfred Kelberry: eh
Alfred Kelberry: cool
druth Vlodovic: that's the problem with minituarization and implants, you sleep on it wrong and you can't find the on switch afterwards
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Hokon Cazalet: an infolink would be obnoxious, all the spam calls, into your mind directly
Storm Nordwind: you can pay extr afor the spam-free service
Hokon Cazalet: also upgrades would be an issue
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Storm Nordwind: Reincarnation
druth Vlodovic: that's the uninstall option
Hokon Cazalet: yeah maybe download your mind into a new and enahced body, homo sapeins 3.4
Alfred Kelberry: karma point system brain implant
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: that would be useful
Alfred Kelberry: below certain level and...
Storm Nordwind: How do you know that's not already happening? ;)
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: the question is who's the karma system vendor :)
Hokon Cazalet: bill gates
Storm Nordwind: You are
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Storm Nordwind: We all are
druth Vlodovic: uh oh, I'd hate to see how they would evaluate you for karma points
Alfred Kelberry: yes
druth Vlodovic: vote NDP -10 points
Hokon Cazalet: some angel God assinged and is bored with his job
druth Vlodovic: cause negativity by complaining about your job -2 points
Hokon Cazalet: "ok you have a net plus of 27 karma points, head up to first level of heaven, next!"
Alfred Kelberry: druth :)
Storm Nordwind: And here you are
Hokon Cazalet: hehe druth
druth Vlodovic: yay! I knew I liked this place
Storm Nordwind: Now you've spent your surplus points, how are you going to earn some more?
Alfred Kelberry: 28 karma points and you're upgraded to sl viewer 2 :)
Hokon Cazalet: oh you either come back to earth or head to a level of hell
Hokon Cazalet: you cant stay in heaven forever =)
Storm Nordwind: That's -28 Boxy
Alfred Kelberry: haha
Hokon Cazalet: hehe alfred
Alfred Kelberry: :P
druth Vlodovic: I thik the upgrade would come with negative karma
Hokon Cazalet: lol
druth Vlodovic: I've got to go, have fun guys
Storm Nordwind: yes me too
Alfred Kelberry: oh, time!

"even good karma is a problem"

Hokon Cazalet: one thing i like about the karma system, is even good karma is a problem, cuz your still stuck on samsara
Hokon Cazalet: bye druth =)
druth Vlodovic: oh yes, one last thing
Alfred Kelberry: thank you folks
Hokon Cazalet: bye storm
Alfred Kelberry: it was fun
druth Vlodovic: onigokko
Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
Hokon Cazalet: lol
Storm Nordwind waves
Hokon Cazalet: hehe alfred, your running
Hokon Cazalet: byeeeee