2012.02.19 01:00 - Kirchensteur

Eliza posted this session from the auto-listener database...

[01:02] Wol Euler: good morning, yaku
[01:02] Yakuzza Lethecus: guten morngen
[01:03] Yakuzza Lethecus: morgen :)
[01:03] Wol Euler: alles in ordnung heute?
[01:04] Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, got my coffee and checked on several things, also easter vacation
[01:04] Yakuzza Lethecus: a flight i am eagling upon got cheaper and i might book today even without having a go an a needed vacation day :P
[01:05] Wol Euler: ah :)
[01:06] Wol Euler: that is an advantage, sure
[01:06] Yakuzza Lethecus: what´s an advantage ?
[01:07] Wol Euler: not needing to use a holiday for travelling
[01:07] Wol Euler: use in the sense of "waste" :)

[01:08] Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, easter is good because of the friday and monday and it´s the same in sweden, they don´t have as many vacation days as we germans recieve
[01:08] Wol Euler nods.
[01:08] Wol Euler: I doubt if many countries do :)
[01:08] Wol Euler: it seems to me that every month has at least one holiday in it, some two or three
[01:09] Yakuzza Lethecus notices that he´s using vacation and holiday interchangably sometimes, but yeah that´s also true :)
[01:10] Wol Euler: hmmmmmm, I think they are interchangeable. Vacation is english and holiday american.
[01:10] Wol Euler: not all holidays are "holy days" :)
[01:10] Wol Euler: that origin is long lost
[01:11] Yakuzza Lethecus: there was a time when i went at least for easter and christmas to church, but then i even lost that habit, just free days by now
[01:12] Wol Euler: probably the majority do not, these days

[01:12] Wol Euler: although I was reading a piece in the local paper about the struggles of the local church with declining attendance
[01:12] Wol Euler: they pointed out that still more people go to church than to live soccer
[01:12] Yakuzza Lethecus: i am still paying my tax tho
[01:13] Wol Euler: so clearly the problem is not the "audience" as such, clearly that still exists
[01:13] Wol Euler: because nobody thinks live soccer is going to go broke
[01:13] Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
[01:16] Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s a devils circle, they put "gemeindein" together and the pastor´s are becomming anonym
[01:16] Wol Euler nods.
[01:17] Yakuzza Lethecus: so less identification, more ppl leave, more putting together, and in the end the organization itself try´s to keep itself alive
[01:17] Wol Euler: yep

[01:18] Wol Euler: it's hard to know what they could do to break out of that cycle
[01:18] Wol Euler: they are trying to solve it as a corporation would, closing branch offices and consolidating their products and services
[01:18] Wol Euler: but that doesn#t apply well to people
[01:19] Wol Euler: the analogy to soccer is a false one, I think, if it relied on donatoins and a small tax support it would be in trouble too
[01:19] Wol Euler: but they charge admission.
[01:20] Yakuzza Lethecus: they don´t recieve taxes everywhere, i think even in france they rely more on donations but never really got into that
[01:20] Wol Euler nods.
[01:21] Wol Euler: I wonder when it started to go bad? Presumably some historian could tell us
[01:22] Wol Euler: because htey were getting enough income even a hundred years ago to be putting up large churches everywhere

[01:22] Wol Euler: perhaps it coincides with the modern social state
[01:22] Wol Euler: it now provides services that the church used to do
[01:23] Wol Euler: and since we pay the state through taxes, people sensibly ask why they should pay the church now for something it no longer does
[01:23] Yakuzza Lethecus: just googled, in france it was around the revolution that they lost theire chruch tenth (kirchenzehnt?)
[01:23] Wol Euler: "tithe" is the usual word in english.
[01:24] Wol Euler: still in use, apparently mormons are expected to tithe. There is said to be a huge social pressure to do so, though of course it is "optional and individual"

[01:28] Wol Euler: I don't pay Kirchensteuer, actually. Purely by chance.
[01:29] Wol Euler: when I moved here, the Anmeldeamt asked me, really casually, what church I belonged to. I had no idea what the question meant, so I answered really casually "none"
[01:29] Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
[01:29] Wol Euler:if she has asked instead "which church do you wish your taxes to support", I might have given a very different answer
[01:32] Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder who recieves the money if you belong to a different church or won´t ppl be taxed at all if ur muslim or any other confession then lutheran or catholic
[01:33] Wol Euler: good question!
[01:33] Yakuzza Lethecus: if it count´s at all
[01:33] Wol Euler: I don't know but I would guess that all christian religions are treated in the same way, receiving kirchensteuer
[01:33] Wol Euler: and I would hope that synagogues and mosques do too
[01:33] Wol Euler: but I don't know.
[01:34] Wol Euler: that's really a good question :)
[01:34] Yakuzza Lethecus: http://de.answers.yahoo.com/question...3194012AAlganT
[01:35] Yakuzza Lethecus: sry for the log, it´s in german
[01:35] Wol Euler: nice find, yaku :)

[01:36] Wol Euler: summary: synagogues yes, mosques no. These are financed by donations, but largely by support from foreign countries
[01:36] Wol Euler: it doesn't say that the mosques could not be supported through Kirchensteuer, so presumably they choose not to
[01:36] Wol Euler: so as to escape state supervision, perhaps
[01:38] Wol Euler: perhaps "escape" is too strong a word
[01:39] Yakuzza Lethecus: but might partially be true
[01:39] Yakuzza Lethecus: i will log out, thx for the time on a sunday morning
[01:40] Yakuzza Lethecus: enjoy the day
[01:40] Wol Euler: bye yaku!