2014.04.27 07:00 - Awareness as description of Attention

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Aloha :)
Bleu Oleander: how was your week?
Eliza Madrigal: Ohh the whole week? :::thinks back:::
Bleu Oleander: distant past :)
Eliza Madrigal: seems that way... each day so different... each part of the day so different....
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: overall restlessness, but of an, I think, decent sort :)
Eliza Madrigal: how was yours?
Bleu Oleander: very nice ... cooled off a bit ... last breaths of cool air before the hot sets in
Eliza Madrigal: nice! very hot here already

Bleu Oleander: been reading a terrific book
Bleu Oleander: Consciousness and the social brain
Bleu Oleander: by Michael Graziano

http://brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp

Bleu Oleander: neuroscientist from Princeton
Bleu Oleander: really stretching my mind!
Eliza Madrigal: yes I'm a bit familiar... How stretching?
Bleu Oleander: you know his work?
Eliza Madrigal: He has written for Aeon I think, and/or Nautilus...
Bleu Oleander: same brain regions and computational processing that are used in a social context to attribute awareness to someone else are also used to construct our own awareness and attribute it to ourselves ... basically
Eliza Madrigal: ah, actually I was reading an article of his yesterday: http://aeon.co/magazine/being-human/...form-humanity/

found this there also which explains his theory better than I can:

http://aeon.co/magazine/being-human/...ousness-works/

Eliza Madrigal: but please say more?
Bleu Oleander: he's written novels also
Bleu Oleander: very creative thinker
Eliza Madrigal: so we are limited in seeing ourselves, as we are limited in seeing others.. creating an effect of filling in or projecting ?
Bleu Oleander: yes limited by our "machinery" as such
Eliza Madrigal: I guess one question is, what is the stuff we are projecting or attributing.... not just 'data' but feelings/consciousness... awareness, as you say?
Bleu Oleander: so awareness is a description of the process of attention
Bleu Oleander: well his theory says awareness is data
Bleu Oleander: all information
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Bleu Oleander: awareness is the schema for attention
Bleu Oleander: attention is the process of focus
Bleu Oleander: and awareness is our description of that process
Bleu Oleander: so we attribute awareness to others
Bleu Oleander: we do the same to ourselves
Eliza Madrigal: seems still to have the same underlying question mark of 'we'...'we who..' lol
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: "we" the process that creates the sense of self
Bleu Oleander: self-knowledge is just another category of knowledge
Bleu Oleander: another interesting book related to these ideas is "On Being Certain" by Robert Burton
Bleu Oleander: read it a while back
Bleu Oleander: how we attach the feeling of certainty to our beliefs
Bleu Oleander: feelings as descriptions of emotions
Bleu Oleander: information added to chunks of other information
Catrinamonblue Resident: 's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
Bleu Oleander: hiya Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: morning :) sry to be late
Eliza Madrigal: knowledge only matters in the context of a 'we' for our purposes, although the idea of we springing from a knowledge unlike what we know is interesting
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat :)
Bleu Oleander: so awareness is described by the brain rather than produced by the brain is his basic idea
Eliza Madrigal: that makes sense... actually a lot of people think of the (individual) brain as sort of receiver, like on a radio
Bleu Oleander: I don't think he means as a receiver
Eliza Madrigal: described - interpreted?
Bleu Oleander: no
Bleu Oleander: well yes in a way
Bleu Oleander: like when you describe your feelings
Bleu Oleander: it is interpretation of physical processes
Eliza Madrigal: part of my personal problem when describing my feelings is that I rarely perceive them as personal
Bleu Oleander: why is that?
Bleu Oleander: who's feelings would they be?
Catrinamonblue Resident: listens
Eliza Madrigal: my feelings seem very entangled with others... so for instance it is painfully difficult to say "I want ___ " because whatever I receive, the pleasure or benefit of that is contingent on how it affects others
Bleu Oleander: so if you say I want breakfast that is contingent on how it affects others?
Eliza Madrigal: I can receive more pleasure if experiencing someone else's pleasure... get caught up in that...
Eliza Madrigal: and odd as it seems... sometimes.. at least the experience of breakfast
Eliza Madrigal: I may have the idea of breakfast, which is a good one, to my mind
Bleu Oleander: not sure I understand that
Eliza Madrigal: but I already know that if I go ahead with that, I may not enjoy it as much by the time I have it unless factoring others...
Eliza Madrigal: not something I can describe well either :)
Bleu Oleander: factoring how many others?
Bleu Oleander: all of humanity?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm also working against it consciously at this point in my life... to be more decisive and Steve Jobs like "tell them what they want" lol
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have always lived the philosophy that it never hurts to ask, the worse they can say is no. For me if I say I"I want.... " I usually will also say "it's fine if the answer is no"
Bleu Oleander: well no need to go that far LOL
Eliza Madrigal: it can feel that way actually, Bleu
Catrinamonblue Resident: I give the other person the choice of what they would like
Eliza Madrigal: re "all of humanity" - as though any personal identity only finds fruition in larger expression
Eliza Madrigal: so do you think of yourself as more "adaptable" than others Cat?
Catrinamonblue Resident: not really no :) just perhaps that I do really try to think of the other person... to allow them the choice of if they want to help me or not...
--BELL--
Catrinamonblue Resident: knowing that we all have a choice in our actions or inactions
Catrinamonblue Resident: I guess I learned long ago that my happiness or well being is not dependent on others but only myself... my pleasure is my own :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: I think we might be more interconnected than that though
Bleu Oleander: for me my happiness is tied to many
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh true we are not alone but for myself I learned I could only rely on myself for my happiness, was always disappointed when others did not understand or enjoy what I did
Bleu Oleander: the "no man is an island" theory of happiness :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think once we're aware of interconnectedness, it is hard not to factor or question...
Eliza Madrigal: even feelings that before seemed all one's own
Bleu Oleander: feelings I think are one's own but have causal relationships with others and our environment and our memories and experiences
Eliza Madrigal: not sure... do feel to 'pick up' someone else's emotion's at times,... and the idea that it 'may be' that, has been a help when I felt pulled under
Bleu Oleander: that's more a mirroring than an actual picking up of anothers emotions
Eliza Madrigal: maybe I don't have those lines quite down :)
Bleu Oleander: your emotion mirrors another ... basically empathy
Bleu Oleander: so feel a connection
Eliza Madrigal nods.. then for some, there may be a boundary issue, where they can't quite tell the difference... enter so far
Bleu Oleander: feeling a closeness?
Catrinamonblue Resident: I do feel a connection with others but I guess perhaps I learned to keep lines between? boundaries to keep myself safe perhaps?
Eliza Madrigal: Storm used to tell me that before he did empathic work there were conscious boundaries set.. rituals for that...
Eliza Madrigal: and I guess I understand the why of that, or why people, like psychiatrists, keep firm opening and closing and time boundaries
Bleu Oleander: we all experience some sense of boundaries
Bleu Oleander: otherwise we might dissolve into infinity in our minds, which does happen to some
Eliza Madrigal: the lines are very interesting
Eliza Madrigal: lines of compassion
Eliza Madrigal: self/other
Bleu Oleander: vary from one to another
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: going to have to go guys... sry :)
Bleu Oleander: take care Cat
Eliza Madrigal: okay Cat...
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye :)
Eliza Madrigal: bfn :)
Bleu Oleander: bye
Bleu Oleander: I just watched the last class of Buddhism/Psychology

https://class.coursera.org/psychbuddhism-001

Bleu Oleander: you?
Eliza Madrigal: ohhh really liked the last lectures
Eliza Madrigal: even wrote the professor for the first time :)
Bleu Oleander: I don't follow the "enlightenment" part
Bleu Oleander: do you?
Bleu Oleander: maybe have to be Buddhist to accept or understand that?
Eliza Madrigal: well, say more? I may have written about the part you mean
Bleu Oleander: I don't agree with not-self, emptiness or impermanence as ideas that if you accept them means you have achieved "enlightenment," whatever that is ...
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: I also don't believe in "ultimate truth" or "moral truth"
Eliza Madrigal: I don't see 'enlightenment' as some end state
Bleu Oleander: so what is it to you?
Eliza Madrigal: I sort of feel, and this is why I disagreed with the 'rebellion against natural selection' that what we consider enlightenment is just the next evolutionary leap
Eliza Madrigal: a beginning really
Bleu Oleander: how does one know one is enlightened?
Eliza Madrigal: and to me, non-duality, or not self (beyond self and other thinking) includes dualities in a kind of diverse but open play... so what I wrote about had to do with his imagination that enlightenment meant you could no longer enjoy a "competitive" football game
Eliza Madrigal: you could enjoy it... but enjoy the underlying play as well, not taking it overly seriously
Bleu Oleander: I personally thought that was a weak example
Eliza Madrigal: I certainly can't answer the "how does one/anyone know" question
Bleu Oleander: so how would anyone know?
Eliza Madrigal: most teachers I like, buddhism or otherwise, don't really like the word, or understanding of the word...
Eliza Madrigal: I feel... Dogen gave the best description
Bleu Oleander: I've not found anyone who does
Bleu Oleander: what was his?
Eliza Madrigal: He said "to study the self is to forget the self, and to forget the self is to be enlightened by the 10,000 things...." he was talking about a kind of intimacy
Eliza Madrigal: Einstein's "friendly universe", I think anyway
Bleu Oleander: I still don't know how that would allow him to declare himself as enlightened though
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think he would :)
Bleu Oleander: for me the self is a process not a thing to exist or not exist
Eliza Madrigal: not sure "enlightened" is a good translation of what is meant
Bleu Oleander: so what value is the word enlightened then?
Eliza Madrigal nods... I think that aspect of your understanding is what many of us have had to learn... looking for "a particular/fixed self" is how to study and see directly

Bleu Oleander: to me its about declaring oneself special ... the very thing one should be working against?
Eliza Madrigal: hah yes!

Eliza Madrigal: like the 'compassionate' person who is above the one they are compassionate "to"
Bleu Oleander: I think many are still thinking of the self as a kind of "soul"
Bleu Oleander: or little man in the head
Bleu Oleander: once you see it as a process the problem fades
Eliza Madrigal: yes... it is also a benefit of travel, of which I think education/philosophy is one sort
Bleu Oleander: then can adjust the process
Eliza Madrigal: yet... for me, there are people in the world who are more 'out of the way' than others
Eliza Madrigal: whose self isn't in the way of their love
Eliza Madrigal: humbling... not sure one can learn that academically
Bleu Oleander: so self as a process can move forward or back in priority
Bleu Oleander: self process is always running, sometimes more in the background, sometimes more out front
Eliza Madrigal: and at the (no) center... a kind of openness?
Bleu Oleander: yes no physical center
Eliza Madrigal: no self (has priority)
Eliza Madrigal: non-self
Bleu Oleander: but not "non-self"
Bleu Oleander: self process is always running unless some kind of brain damage to certain areas of brain
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps conscious nonself is the way to understand no self...a door
Eliza Madrigal: like words to get beyond words
Bleu Oleander: I don't understand non-self at all
Eliza Madrigal: :) time for guardians session...lol
Bleu Oleander: non-self process wouldn't make sense to me
Bleu Oleander: ok thanks for coming
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for being here, always interesting
Bleu Oleander: sorry can't stay for guardian mtg today
Eliza Madrigal: okay...have fun
Bleu Oleander: you too!
Bleu Oleander: bye for now
Eliza Madrigal: bfn