2014.06.30 13:00 - So Much Depends

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who after this session wrote to apologize to her very dear friend Zen, for being stretched thin and taking comments too personally.

I do want to give a better link than the one I give later in the session, to the idea I first hoped to present for possible discussion: http://integrallife.com/ken-wilber-d...y-introduction. I didn't listen to the video yet, but at least the outline below the video is much clearer, starting in the third paragraph or so. :) Thanks.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
Zen Arado: where's everybody?
Eliza Madrigal: just we two today so far
Eliza Madrigal: so you can choose topic!
Eliza Madrigal: field of opportunity ^.^
Zen Arado: I'm just out of topics :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh no, well what shall we do?? hm.... here comes Brucie...
Eliza Madrigal: he'll know ^.^
Zen Arado: what is a topic?
Zen Arado: words words words
Eliza Madrigal: ha ha ha

Eliza Madrigal: the "what is a topic" topic
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: a narrowing down of life
Zen Arado: into a specific
Eliza Madrigal: for the sake of a place of connection

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :))
Wol Euler: evening all
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello eliza, zen, bruce
Zen Arado: Hi Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: you look wonderful ~ hope you feel that way too

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :))
Wol Euler: aww, thank you
Bruce Mowbray: Hello!
Bruce Mowbray: so sorry to be late.
Eliza Madrigal: no worries ~ be happy
Bruce Mowbray: :-)
Wol Euler snaps her fingers and whistles.

Eliza Madrigal: I noticed that there was some confusion about whether or not to have guardian session Sunday... did it not happen?
Wol Euler: alas no
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know -- I could not be there.
Eliza Madrigal: sigh
Bruce Mowbray: also sighs.
Eliza Madrigal: OK ::whistles and smiles::::
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray: so much depends upon a red wheelbarrow in the rain, and chickens...
Bruce Mowbray: and ELIZA!
Wol Euler: and indeed eliza
Zen Arado: would make a nice painting
Eliza Madrigal smiles... well, I DID say I wouldn't make it but that people might want to discuss some things... a, b, c....
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh Zen, you're right
Eliza Madrigal: and a rusty ol bike leaned up against the barn...
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray: http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilre...red-wheel.html
Eliza Madrigal clicks
 

so much depends
upon

a red wheel
barrow

glazed with rain
water

beside the white
chickens.

-William Carlos Williams

Zen Arado: chicken and geese paintings are good sellers :)
Eliza Madrigal: ahhhh, nice. Thanks Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: yw!
Eliza Madrigal: what happened to you Zen...mr bottom line....
Wol Euler grins.

--BELL--

Wol Euler: http://homepages.wmich.edu/~cooneys/...wcw.plums.html
Zen Arado: knew some art club painters painted geese often because they sold well..I just painted ducks :0
Eliza Madrigal: one with the water trails behind...
Zen Arado: nice little poem
Wol Euler: I quite like WCW
Zen Arado: it paints a vivid picture
Zen Arado: a painting in words
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: speaking of red, does SL have a Jimmy Choo designer? red bottom soles?
Wol Euler: mine are :)
Wol Euler: and many shoes and boots are scripted for colour change so you can do your own
Wol Euler: these are from Maitreya
Eliza Madrigal: that's what I was noticing... ah :) Maitreya... the upcoming buddha...
Wol Euler: or a cashing-in label :)
Eliza Madrigal: how nice of him/her to give shoes, lol
Eliza Madrigal: sorry... being silly today, :)

Bruce Mowbray: ( sorry, The young man whom I'm taking two Columbus tonight to catch the Greyhound bus to New York City just arrived at the farm... He's getting reacquainted with his dog Rocco right now, but I might have to leave a bit early today.)
Bruce Mowbray: omg!
Eliza Madrigal: OK Bruce... not going to NY with him?
Wol Euler gasps
Bruce Mowbray: nope.
Bruce Mowbray: I can't do that anymore.
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray: I realize that in Chicago.... about a month ago.
Bruce Mowbray: but I will enjoy seeing his photos!
Eliza Madrigal: just too strenuous?
Bruce Mowbray: hopefully there will be a photo of a red wheelbarrow, a bike leaning against the barn, rain, and maybe even some chickens. what you think?
Eliza Madrigal: grr lagging
Bruce Mowbray: I am no longer mentally or physically capable of traveling, sad to say.
Eliza Madrigal thinks of slodging through in rainboots

Zen Arado: Mitreya is the friend of all souls apparently
Zen Arado: http://www.maitreyathefriend.com/
Zen Arado: or soles?
Bruce Mowbray: clicks
Eliza Madrigal: sorry to hear, Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: hah Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: well...hm
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray: np, it was timew.
Bruce Mowbray: but thanks, Eliza.
Wol Euler nods thoughtfully.
Bruce Mowbray: time* of course.
Eliza Madrigal: Actually I've been listening to a new agey teacher/speaker lately, and am conflicted because there is a kind of cult following around her... but I appreciate some of her insights and modern feel, very much
Bruce Mowbray: Can you tell when I'm using the Dragon and when I'm not?
Bruce Mowbray: Listens.....
Bruce Mowbray: Dharma gates are everywhere!
Wol Euler: only by the occasional totally wrong word
Bruce Mowbray: even in Italy!
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce I can only tell because you apologize a lot when using dragon ;-)
Zen Arado: yeh
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: timew is not a Dragon mistake
Bruce Mowbray: but when I'm not using the Dragon, I apologize for my typing errors!!!
Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
Eliza Madrigal: yes...so you hold nothing back from us, hah
Zen Arado: is a manual mistype
Wol Euler nods.

Bruce Mowbray: Zen Knows the Dragon well!
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: yep ;)
Zen Arado: I have using it for French lately
Eliza Madrigal: wow ambitious
Bruce Mowbray: oh my!
Zen Arado: is far worse than English
Zen Arado: as you might expect
Bruce Mowbray: I can imagine it would be!
Zen Arado: it puts in the accents though
Bruce Mowbray: I wonder how the Dragon would work with something like Swahili, or maybe Latin!
Bruce Mowbray: Or Greek!
Eliza Madrigal: sanskrit...
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.

Eliza Madrigal: You prompted a beautiful rain outside btw, was bright blue a moment ago and now downpours
Wol Euler: wow
Bruce Mowbray: for me, at least, any symbolic system that's coherent and meaningful is a sort of mystery -- and amazement!
Zen Arado: look for a red wheelbarrow
Bruce Mowbray: and a bike leaning against a barn.
Eliza Madrigal: would be quite a sight in the middle of apartmentville hehe
Eliza Madrigal: (wheelbarrow)
Bruce Mowbray Wishes some of that rain would come here so his corn could be watered . . . it needs it desperately!
Bruce Mowbray: Well, just imagine looking for red wheelbarrows and chickens in New York City!

Wol Euler: my cousins' fields in Saskatchewan are under water, they've only sown in 60% of their land
Bruce Mowbray: omg.
Bruce Mowbray: THAT's TERRIBLE, Wol.
Wol Euler: the river is so high, they've stopped the ferry
Eliza Madrigal: yikes
Bruce Mowbray: oh dear.
Zen Arado: wow
Wol Euler: yes actually, going to be a pretty grim year for them

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I wonder if there are still nonbelievers with this global warming thing.
Zen Arado: some still believe the earth is flat Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: I couldn't eat avocados for all my childhood, because it was my job to gather all the fallen/spoiled avocados from our yard, pushing around the wheelbarrow with one wheel ... me and the dogs...
Eliza Madrigal: but it was green :)
Eliza Madrigal: there are nonbelievers, but more who are embarrassed to be, lately
Eliza Madrigal: some deciding it doesn't go against their religion to deny global change
Eliza Madrigal: but still saying "Oh well one country can't do anything, because China..."

Zen Arado: that man who kidnapped all those youg girls thinks the earth is flat
Zen Arado: because it says it in the Koran
Zen Arado: or doesn't say it is spherical anyway
Eliza Madrigal: I wonder what he really believes... people use all these scriptures for their own justifications
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think it is about faith at all...almost ever
Wol Euler: they mine scripture for excuses to justify their own greed and lust
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and "persona" of power
Bruce Mowbray: [sorry -- just took an over-long drop to talk to Matt - the kid who'se going to NYC tonight.]
Eliza Madrigal: np Bruce :)

There were two different ideas and things were moving a bit too rapidly. I shouldn't have tried to keep up, because it frazzled me...

Zen Arado: hmm so I wonder do I twist things to make tham in line with the latest spiritual teaching I think is good?
Bruce Mowbray: now I have an IM from Soraya.
Zen Arado: I like to turn faults on myself
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: I heard a really intriguing outline of evolutionary thought, by Ken Wilbur
Wol Euler listens.
Zen Arado: not quite 'I like' but a good practice I think
Bruce Mowbray: Listens very carefully.....
Bruce Mowbray: nods, and agrees that it is an excellent practice!
Bruce Mowbray: the best that my typist has ever found, to be sure.
Zen Arado: feels virtuous
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: not sure I could do it justice... but, the basic idea is that, if there is a hierarchy of sorts... it goes something like 1 = "my way is the best way", then that is captured into and included in 2 , which = something like, everyone's way has validity...
Bruce Mowbray: Tonglen Takes me out of myself-preoccupations..... As does The Way of the Bodhisattva (Shantideva)
Eliza Madrigal: then that is included into... Hm I'm not doing well - because he describes negating one to include the other
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Zen Arado: basically we look after No. 1. them family, then friends, then the rest ?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes everyone's way does have validity... in fact everything that exists has validity.
Bruce Mowbray: Being!
Zen Arado: hmm reminds me of metta meditation
Bruce Mowbray: Yes it does, remind one of metta.

Wol Euler: I am uneasy with "everyone has validity" because IMHO some people do not. Have chosen not to.
Eliza Madrigal: haha... am too laggy to articulate correctly (sorry Ken!) lol
Eliza Madrigal: but yes it is very similar to metta
Wol Euler: I'm thinking of mass murderers, the too many school massacres.
Wol Euler: I cannot see how that has validity
Eliza Madrigal: right Wol..it is different, what he articulated... yes
Bruce Mowbray: How WHAT has validity, Wol?
Eliza Madrigal: but there is a kind of expanding that takes place
Eliza Madrigal: that changes the game at every level

Wol Euler: [13:40] Bruce (bruce.mowbray): Yes everyone's way does have validity... in fact everything that exists has validity.
Bruce Mowbray: There it is!
Zen Arado: we are all legitimate expressions of nature
Bruce Mowbray: Is there some scale for measuring validity?
Zen Arado: whether others like it or not
Bruce Mowbray: For sure, Zen.
Eliza Madrigal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_theory
Zen Arado: that young guy with father film director..
Zen Arado: who shot lots of people
Eliza Madrigal: >whew< much pleased to find that... now let me relog to hopefully stop lag
Eliza Madrigal: brb
Bruce Mowbray: hope so, Eliza.
Wol Euler reads

--BELL--

Wol Euler: perfect timing, eliza
Eliza Madrigal: hah, I see
Zen Arado: wb Eliza
Zen Arado: never was keen on Wilber
Eliza Madrigal: the page isn't great... what I wanted to point to was a well developed idea of where we are heading, in terms of the processes that seem to occur to work through the ideologies, negating one another phases
Eliza Madrigal: where there is greater inclusiveness and new categories
Eliza Madrigal: ::shrug:: well, I'm late to Wilber but I liked what he described very much
Eliza Madrigal: probably shouldn't intro ideas until I've said them aloud to myself though
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Ken Wilber is pretty amazing.
Eliza Madrigal: I have a lot of regard for people who are bridges

Zen Arado: seems like splitting reality into finer and finer categories
Zen Arado: (that's the polite view)
Bruce Mowbray: I have enjoyed his insights from as far back as I can remember! -- the 60s?
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: How about Subtler and Subtler experiences?
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Zen Arado: descriptions
Zen Arado: not experiences
Eliza Madrigal: if one cares about "science deniers" n such
Eliza Madrigal: then it makes sense to find ways to bridge understandings
Eliza Madrigal: widen scopes
Zen Arado: seems like a lot of philosophy I studied
Zen Arado: just convoluted dead ends
Eliza Madrigal: well you've been fortunate Zen... but I'm honestly not interested in philosophy for its own sake
Bruce Mowbray: Could that philosophy be phenomenology?
Zen Arado: no I never studied that
Eliza Madrigal: rather for connection. I really feel like the issues we care about can only be worked with by inclusiveness
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: academics trying to find something unique
Zen Arado: spinning out theoriues
Bruce Mowbray Loves inclusiveness!
Wol Euler nods.
Zen Arado: inclusiveness?
Bruce Mowbray: Inclusiveness of everything that has being.
Eliza Madrigal: even if it is PAINFUL for me to listen to someone who is pro gun, I feel I need to be able to hear and understand..stand in their shoes and argue their point
Zen Arado: oh yes but there is a limit to that
Eliza Madrigal: so that I can persuade them to do the same
Eliza Madrigal: and we have some hope of an opening
Eliza Madrigal: or shift...

Zen Arado: I don't have to listen to every crackpot conspiracy theirist etc
Eliza Madrigal: of course not... no need to stop and have every argument
Eliza Madrigal: but if one can make compelling cases
Eliza Madrigal: or at least show care
Eliza Madrigal: I think it matters
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe it doesn't, but I prefer to think so
Wol Euler: it all matters (see China and global warming)
Eliza Madrigal: that's what I was thinking of... back at that issue...
Eliza Madrigal: a person has to care about the case being made, even if they think it is wrong
Eliza Madrigal: because another human being is making the case
Eliza Madrigal: and they represent others and somewhere in there probably don't listen because they were treated badly or with arrogance, or who knows what
Eliza Madrigal: sorry to rant... but it really is kind of sad and scary, the situations we're in...so polarized
Wol Euler nods.

Zen Arado: I just don't have the inclination to study him seriously
Zen Arado: life is too short
Bruce Mowbray Ponders " what matters is a red wheelbarrow in the rain, and the chickens... and perhaps a bike, rusty, leaning against the old barn.
Zen Arado: unlesss you are really interested in the kind of things he says
Eliza Madrigal: not about him...but the idea has some traction for communicating across different world views...
Bruce Mowbray: good people, Matt and I are going to Columbus, he to catch a bus to New York City, and I to tag along.
Bruce Mowbray: thank you so much for being here.
Zen Arado: I suspect a lot of what he says makes sense..it is gleaned from Zen and other sources
Eliza Madrigal: OK Bruce, have a lovely ride
Bruce Mowbray: I needed this! today!
Zen Arado: but some of it is a bit crackpot too
Bruce Mowbray: may we all be happy in our individual ways , , ,
Zen Arado: byee Bruce
Wol Euler: bye bruce, bon voyage visitor
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good people.

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: I don't know... don't know his writing well..just not sure why 'not' consider various ideas
Zen Arado: no harm in that
Eliza Madrigal: I was particularly interested in your thoughts not about him, but about the idea...
Zen Arado: he has a lot of ideas...
Eliza Madrigal: I just couldn't get the hierarchy articulated well
Eliza Madrigal: in this case it was just the basic outline that I thought touched much of what we've done here
Eliza Madrigal: not what we set out to do, mind you, lol
Zen Arado: I read him or watched a video or something but wasn't impressed at the time
Zen Arado: brilliant but ...
Zen Arado: just my impression

Eliza Madrigal: regretfully, I have to go now... son is at an IT camp and I need to pick him up
Zen Arado: kk byee Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: sorry to be jumpy, if I am...have been on the computer all day with work training and my buffers may be thin
Wol Euler: awww
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
Wol Euler: rest up, buff those bumpers :)
Zen Arado: take care :)
Wol Euler: bye zen, take care
Zen Arado: byee
Eliza Madrigal: thanks, bye for now