2015.02.02 13:00 - Changing: Stalwart outfits and obligations

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Raffila Millgrove: Hi Bruce. you are roller skating in today?
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Raffi, Brucie
Raffila Millgrove: ooh i see cookies!
Aphrodite Macbain: Please help yourself
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Elan!
ElanVitalo Resident: Hello.
ElanVitalo Resident: We're still ice skating.
Raffila Millgrove tries out a nice cookies.
Raffila Millgrove: delish!
Aphrodite Macbain: no ice here
Raffila Millgrove: lots of chocolate chips in it.
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: I baked them today
Raffila Millgrove: very fresh. thank you!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Silas
Aphrodite Macbain: if u click on the teapot you can get all sorts of tea
Aphrodite Macbain: Did any of you read my email today?
SilasAndrews Resident: I read it. Am watching vid now....(or trying to.) Slow ISP today.
Aphrodite Macbain: She's very inspiring!
ElanVitalo Resident same with moi.
Bruce Mowbray me too.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya druth
druth Vlodovic: hi guys
Aphrodite Macbain: nice leather pants!
druth Vlodovic: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
druth Vlodovic: what are we being inspired by?
Aphrodite Macbain: I watched that video and found it interesting and inspiring
Aphrodite Macbain: http://www.ted.com/talks/zeynep_tufe...on__2015-02-02

Aphrodite Macbain: She talked about the power of social media to bring people together
Aphrodite Macbain: but suggested that we need more that to ensure any changes are sustainable
Wol Euler: greetings pabonauts
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Wol!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol.
ElanVitalo Resident: Hi, Wol.
druth Vlodovic: hi wol
Raffila Millgrove: hello wol
Wol Euler: don't let me interrupt the discussion
Aphrodite Macbain: It made me think about my efforts to meditate
Raffila Millgrove: I just read.. last week that a researcher has found that many people feel FB makes them feel sad and lonely.

druth Vlodovic: seeing all the people you aren't hanging out with
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Faze1
Aphrodite Macbain: Welcome
Wol Euler: hello frun
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, frun.
Falze1 Resident: hi, please continue, whatever topic :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Does it explain why Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: i understand this.. because .. here we used to get Xmas letters. news of the family. And even tho you lived next door and knew everything that happened all year, close up...well you read the letter -it sounds so upbeat and praise filled that you wonder.. who sent this?
druth Vlodovic: I saw a participaction ad that said "don't check our website" :-P
Wol Euler: I suppose that proves that SL is a place and the avatars are people

Aphrodite Macbain: lonely people Wol?
Wol Euler: mmhmm. If seeing them all and feeling excluded makes one sad and lonely, there is (in my mind) a clear parallel to being at a gathering and knowing nobody and feeling excluded there

Raffila Millgrove: no intention to distort.. but a need to make things sound.. very upbeat... and it leaves others who don't know you that well.. leaves them feeling like their lives don't measure up.
druth Vlodovic: beats the alternative, "here are all my agonies"
Aphrodite Macbain: Here's the web site that got me thinking: http://www.ted.com/talks/zeynep_tufe...on__2015-02-02
Raffila Millgrove: well of course you don't send out news that is depressing. you want to sound all chipper and it creates as kind of distortion.
Raffila Millgrove: did she mention any of that?
Aphrodite Macbain: no :-)
Raffila Millgrove: ah. i should have written down the name of the researcher who made that statement.
Aphrodite Macbain: she said it was hard work and that it was working together  in RL that really makes change happen
Raffila Millgrove: sorry.
Aphrodite Macbain: np.
Raffila Millgrove: ah ok. sorry. i digress then off your point. raffi lets it go for another time/discussion.
Aphrodite Macbain is blinded by druth's t-shirt
Wol Euler: oh, sorry, I misread raffi's statement. I blame it on the drugs
Falze1 Resident: thanks for the link
Wol Euler sits quietly.
Aphrodite Macbain: laughs
Wol Euler: hello shinjujin
Aphrodite Macbain: rallies
Falze1 Resident: Hi Shinju
Raffila Millgrove nods.
ShinjuJin Resident: Hello All :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Shin
Aphrodite Macbain: she compared all the rallies that happened last year
Aphrodite Macbain: with the Martin Luther king rallies
Aphrodite Macbain: which involved photocopying and mailing and working together rather than simply sending out a tweet
Falze1 Resident: This TED gets us all to go back to the slow hard way
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Falze1
Falze1 Resident: or walking the block, talking to people
druth Vlodovic: part of the problem of having things too easy is that the hard workers get lost in the slush initially
Aphrodite Macbain: I was thinking- how can avis in SL ever get together in the flesh to make change the hard way?
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes hard work lays firmer foundations

Aphrodite Macbain: BTW- speaking of hard work - I made these cookies to day- so they are fresh. :-)
Falze1 Resident: :)

Wol Euler: I don't see what the problem would be, Aph, leaving aside the internationality of SL
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess I need to meet you all in the flesh at one point or another and get to know you better
Wol Euler frowns.
Raffila Millgrove: why? the beauty of SL has been that you can be your best self here or some 'other" self if you desire. you are free here in ways you cannot be in real time. in good ways.
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I know... but according to the TED talk person, change only works well if we connect physically with others--the TED speaker is far more eloquent than I am
ShinjuJin Resident nodding
druth Vlodovic: each thing has both benefits and disadvantages which can be specific to goals
Wol Euler: we (for various meaning of "we") managed well enough to meet in RL when we wished to. I am certain that we could do so again if we wished to.
Druth Vlodovic: anonymous protesting, for instance, is hardly convincing
ShinjuJin Resident: we don't even know what physical implies yet really.... if you think about consciousness
Raffila Millgrove: one of the things I found very frustrating in my early days at Pab was that everyone.. or seemed like.. had met one another.. had history.. outside of SL. it was very off-putting to a newcomer.. I had to give up idea I'd ever.. be on the inside here. would always be a new girl. had to let that go.. just accept that reality.

Wol Euler: awwwww
Wol Euler: I'm sorry you felt that, I assure you it wasn't intentional

Aphrodite Macbain: yes- feeling on the outside looking in...how could we change that?
Aphrodite Macbain thinks Silas (who is skating all over the grass) has had too much coffee
Raffila Millgrove: it was the reality. intention has nothing to do with it. people were incredibly friendly and so kind. But they couldn't change the past.. they did.. many of them know each other very well in real time...
Raffila Millgrove: had trust and confidences between them.
Falze1 Resident: can understand Raffi, but many of us are new again and unknown
Falze1 Resident: each day
druth Vlodovic: I find that intimacy works very fast in SL, and what looks like years of closeness could actually be a chance encounter
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Raffila Millgrove: i am speaking of all the real life meetings that took place in early years and Pema brought here many people he knew.. real time. this is just a fact.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
ShinjuJin Resident: the people I am 'closest to' here has changed a number of times.... friendships come to the fore and recede
Raffila Millgrove: This is a fact. not a feeling. It's a fact. you cannot change what has happened in past.. you can only just move along and go with it.
druth Vlodovic: mind you, the only cure for "in groups" is genuine friendliness and a welcoming attitude, and toughness on the part of visitors
Raffila Millgrove: i guess what bugs me most about this.. isn't that.. it existed.. it's the people say like.. how can we change this? you can't change what's already happened.
Wol Euler: could we change your attitude to it, perhaps?

Falze1 Resident: maybe not, but you can change how we think about it
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Wol.  I was also speaking about making change within our own lives; changing our attitudes.
Raffila Millgrove: my attitude is simply.. it is what it is. I won't ever know these people the way they already know one another. that is just fact. i dont' see that as attitude. it's a .. as druth says.. toughen up and accept it and enjoy the good stuff.

Wol Euler: oh, I disagree entirely. I knew nobody here before I joined the group, I'd never heard of Pema or the others.
Falze1 Resident: and later I met a couple of the members and have them "locked" into who I met.
Wol Euler shuts up and sits on her hands again
Falze1 Resident: why Wol?
Aphrodite Macbain: locked into?
Wol Euler: I feel that I am overriding the conversation and wish to let it flow a little without my pushing
ShinjuJin Resident: when pab first crossed the line to having rl meetings i was divided about it... which would be 'more real', and which i assumed I'd never attend :) and yet now one of the things I wish I could do, is make(help?) pab flourish again so that everyone might have a chance to experience that kind of retreat. I've had to accept that things change, and that,like Storm said the other day, there are many worlds of connection
Wol Euler nods to Shinju
Aphrodite Macbain: Nicely said Shin. Perhaps things and groups just take their course and we can do nothing to change that....but I have found working on things together helps to bond us
ShinjuJin Resident: yes, and the taste of something one place helps us be responsive/alert to when it shows up in another form

Hiatii

druth Vlodovic: I think it is better for a group to take hiatii, rather than follow the sociological path of organizations
Aphrodite Macbain: hiatii? is that a kind of drink?
Wol Euler: hiatuses
ShinjuJin Resident sociological path? :) :::leans in to hear more::::
druth Vlodovic: cause => group => organization => doctrine => organization which cares mostly for its survival with the initial cause lost

Aphrodite Macbain: It seems that "organization which cares mostly for its survival with the initial cause lost" describes a fundamentalist group.
ShinjuJin Resident: ahhh, thank you
druth Vlodovic: hard to describe in single words lol
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
ShinjuJin Resident: squandering or scattering the juju, hehe
druth Vlodovic: hiatusus
Wol Euler: aaah
Aphrodite Macbain: breaks?
druth Vlodovic: or just periods of low activity
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
ShinjuJin Resident: winter/dormancy... sometimes looks like death

druth Vlodovic: to "revive PaB " just needs some people with time and energy and their own interests that align with the groups closely enough to arouse participation
druth Vlodovic: rather than returning to the imagined past
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: constantly reinventing oneself
ShinjuJin Resident: nods... appreciate what was but not more than what is
druth Vlodovic: "fundamentalists" tend to describe themselves as returning to a "purer" past
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: "pure" is such a misused word...
druth Vlodovic: which leads to "now" being seen as corrupted
Aphrodite Macbain: corrupted with change?
ShinjuJin Resident: and ironically, approaching anew, is one of the core notions of pab as a practice
Falze1 Resident: and there is the "been there, done that" moving into the "what next?"
Falze1 Resident: this group had such a fluidness
Raffila Millgrove: yes. i was trying to say that. that history.. has been made but... as time passes.... while you can't erase it.. you accept and move along.. to .. evolve. i wonder about the hiatus idea.. not too keen on it for health of a group. seems harder than to revive.
ShinjuJin Resident: I sometimes hear been there/done that as a kind of consumer view
Falze1 Resident: yes, it got too fab
Raffila Millgrove: and of course there are always bits of history that survive and keep a group feeing.. "at home".. like annually celebrating our birthday.
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: there is an evolution towards a smaller group
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
ShinjuJin Resident: nods
Falze1 Resident: but, now as a new person. I would like PaB to be a little 'newer' too

Aphrodite Macbain: looks at raffi- how is your poetry writing?
Raffila Millgrove: haha.
Raffila Millgrove winks.
ShinjuJin Resident: :))

druth Vlodovic: I remember that I used to get annoyed at "off-topic" chat, and it was mentioned to me that that is actually as old a tradition as Pab :-P
Falze1 Resident: shall I always come tell olden stories that Raffi doesn't feel good with?

Aphrodite Macbain: :-) I'm sure Raffi would appreciate them Falze1
Raffila Millgrove: I am going to come.. i just fear to make a solid commitment due to all this hassles of rl getting in the way of my SL participation. sucks to not show up when promises have been made.
Raffila Millgrove: Frun it was just the opposite.
ShinjuJin Resident: druth, that is one of the most interesting things to me ...the perception of what is off topic :)
Falze1 Resident: ok
druth Vlodovic: audio tape the baby and you can play that for us in penance

Raffila Millgrove: i read and read all the logs. i studied all the reports of the retreats.. i asked many questions.
Raffila Millgrove: i wanted to know everyone. it was kind of futile. but at least i tried to do it.
Raffila Millgrove: and when i asked the questions, people rather liked the opportunity sometimes to share their memories.
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
ShinjuJin Resident: sometimes it is just a case of not knowing that people are getting to know you too... like, I really loved reading Sunday's log and then looked up photos of shanghai all over the place
Raffila Millgrove: I looked at every single real life photo and tried to match up with the SL names.
Aphrodite Macbain: wow
Aphrodite Macbain: You know us more than we do
Bruce Mowbray: I still don't know most of the RL names.
druth Vlodovic: :)
Raffila Millgrove: 3 years ago i had time on my hands.. so i really did try to learn all i could of PAB and with the wiki.. gosh.. you have Books of material to digest.
druth Vlodovic: now we need you to do a guardian log, if you haven't yet
Aphrodite Macbain: yes :-)
Wol Euler smiles.
Raffila Millgrove: here is what i remember vividly... Luci. she was so active in all the photos. she seem to alive and willing to try new things. i liked her so well.. from seeing it. she seems like this here in SL too.
Aphrodite Macbain: she is just like her avi :-)
Raffila Millgrove: i got such a great impression of her from those photos and reports of a retreat at the seaside.
Falze1 Resident: :)
ShinjuJin Resident: Yes! fireball Luci
Bruce Mowbray: :)
ShinjuJin Resident hasn't met her f2f but feels like she has
Aphrodite Macbain: It was good to meet her at the rl retreat

Wol Euler: hello zen
ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Zen :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Zen!
Falze1 Resident: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
ElanVitalo Resident: Welcome, Zen.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Zen.
SilasAndrews Resident: Hello, Zen.
Aphrodite Macbain: we are talking about many things including how we change, how we get to know each other and umm....
druth Vlodovic: connectedness
 

Changing ourselves also requires hard work?

Aphrodite Macbain: Has anyone found ways of changing themselves- their attitudes, their prejudices, their fears?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I feel that I have
Wol Euler nods.
Falze1 Resident: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: No matter how much I meditate, I dont budge....
Aphrodite Macbain: how Wol, Bruce, Falze1?
Wol Euler: it doesn't always work, and it's never easy. it is work.
Bruce Mowbray: "Let the forest find you." (rather than you going out there to find it.)
ShinjuJin Resident has a regular practice of being humbled here
Zen Arado: but you needed the urge to change first?
ShinjuJin Resident: but never humiliated, amazingly

Wol Euler smiles.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce- how have you changed?
Falze1 Resident: there are many methods, some more or less affective for whatever situation
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Falze1 Resident: take fear
Falze1 Resident: you can face it, ignore it, make fun of it

Zen Arado: we can't stop changing ?
Falze1 Resident: yes Zen,. we can't stop changing
Falze1 Resident: even thinking back on some memory changes it and our attitudes

Bruce Mowbray: perhaps we need a sort of emptying into a more receptive mode - and then a willingness to be "found"
Aphrodite Macbain thinks how wonderful it is to be talking to such receptive people
druth Vlodovic: mostly I suspect you need a journal so you can look back and say "who the heck wrote that?"
Zen Arado: if I don't feel any need to, why would I try?
Aphrodite Macbain: When I look at my journal, I find I repeat myself over the years
Zen Arado: we are change
druth Vlodovic: lol, I like to read your comment in both directions Zen
Zen Arado: but we want to pin it down
Zen Arado: stop changing for a moment so I can see who I am :)

Aphrodite Macbain: can anyone give an example of how they have changed (apart from getting older)?
ShinjuJin Resident: seeing the patterns... is how we can play with them/step out of them/include others in our lives
Aphrodite Macbain: (change R us)
ShinjuJin Resident: so seeing repeats is a brilliant thing, if also humbling
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, very...
Zen Arado: but maybe the seeds of the change were always there?
Aphrodite Macbain: how can we change anything if we can't change ourselves?
ShinjuJin Resident: maybe the seeds precede the seeing Zen?
Zen Arado: and then something happens to finally allow it
Aphrodite Macbain waits for the big bang
Zen Arado: oh yes Shin
Falze1 Resident: or the snap
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Zen Arado: like an acorn grows when the conditions are right

druth Vlodovic: I'll tell you one way I have changed, though there is always backsliding
ShinjuJin Resident smiles
Wol Euler listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: listens

Bruce Mowbray listens.
druth Vlodovic: I accept that I don't need to
druth Vlodovic: I am who I am
druth Vlodovic: I like what I do
druth Vlodovic: not what I feel obliged to do, so now, I'm "me," shaped by me, rather than the space around me

Obligations and suits of armour

Zen Arado: but you give yourself the obligation druth?
Falze1 Resident: reading backwards = am I who am I :)
Zen Arado: unless it is an external obligation
druth Vlodovic: it isn't necessary to know myself though it is an interest of mine
Aphrodite Macbain: what obligation Zen?
Zen Arado: but even then you need the feeling you should keep the obligation
Aphrodite Macbain: to do what?

Zen Arado: druth's obligations
druth Vlodovic: that is a hook worth straightening :)
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: ouch, it still has a pointy end
ShinjuJin Resident: balances shift between feeling needed and feeling obligated-the idea of "taking responsibility" as a virtue
Zen Arado: awful things, obligations
Zen Arado: doing things you don't want to do out of duty?

Wol Euler: why?
druth Vlodovic: but does the virtue come from who you are, or from outside yourself?
Aphrodite Macbain: isn't taking responsibility a virtue?
ShinjuJin Resident: honor
ShinjuJin Resident: can be... that's why I said shifting... personally - double edged sword
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Zen Arado: what virtue?

Aphrodite Macbain: caring for others Zen

Zen Arado: but we do that naturally
Raffila Millgrove: example: i have changed in this way: when asked about the poetry.. i would have said "yes" because i know there is a need to have lots of people promise to be involved.. but I don't want to promise something maybe i can't make good on.. so now i don't say "yes" even tho i have had many opportunities and even direct questions to please help.
Falze1 Resident: you do a thing ... it is up to you to feel it is an obligation, a chore, a choice, a gift, a thrill
ShinjuJin Resident: nicely said Frun!
druth Vlodovic: good for you raffila
Raffila Millgrove: if i can.. do something. I will. but it will be not out of duty, but from pleasure to be able to do it.
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Raffi- a great observation :-)
ShinjuJin Resident: seems like wisdom
Zen Arado: yes Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: so by not obligating myself with a "yes", I am free to enjoy possible pleasure of helping.
Zen Arado: others can put heavy burdens on us
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps it depends on the source of the obligation
Wol Euler nods to Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: you can't have everyone with this attitude or nothing is achieved.. you gotta have stalwarts who will routinely do the work. you have to. that luxury of not obligating yourself is nice, but only a few can do it or the organization collapses.
ShinjuJin Resident: yet sometimes if others don't commit to trying, then it can be contagious, or one or two end up with the default of doing 'for'....
ShinjuJin Resident: ah, mind reader ^^
Zen Arado: but some like obligations?
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel morally bound to act in certain ways and not to act in others
druth Vlodovic: well, nothing is a virtue if carried to extremes
Raffila Millgrove: i am just retiring my stalwart outfit for awhile... i put in enough to reward self with not accepting that role for awhile.

Aphrodite Macbain wonders what makes up a stalwart outfit

Falze1 Resident: does anybody know where the stalwart outfit store is in SL? I need one.
Raffila Millgrove: lol.
ShinjuJin Resident grins
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Aphrodite Macbain: I imagine it to look like a suit of heavy armour
ShinjuJin Resident: nods
Falze1 Resident: I sweep the floor. I love to sweep the floor. if mom said sweep the floor I might not
druth Vlodovic: a salt matter: not enough and you get sick, too much and you get sick
Raffila Millgrove: so that's change for me, to put that stalwart outfit in the closet for awhile.
Raffila Millgrove: years ago i couldn't do it.. even tho i see now. there were times I should have done it. Maybe take a hiatus as was mentioned earlier.
ShinjuJin Resident: the bell has fallen under this category, off and on, for almost everyone who has come to pab over time
Wol Euler: I suppose it depends how you define "obligation". I don't believe that sewer workers and garbage collectors go to work for any other reason than that they are obliged to do so.
Wol Euler: but we'd drown in our own shit if they didn't
Aphrodite Macbain: thank god for them
Wol Euler: indeed
Raffila Millgrove: work is survival.... to show up for the paycheck so you can eat. the lucky ones.. can do work they are passionate about.. this is so wonderful to have a job you love. many don't have it.
druth Vlodovic: the one thing multinational corporation miss is that most people want to do a good job by nature
ShinjuJin Resident: difference between obligation as good work, and obligation as slavery
druth Vlodovic: it gets trained out of us by those who try to force the matter
ShinjuJin Resident: agrees with Druth
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: not all of us :-)
ShinjuJin Resident: I feel freed by chores and feel best when I've done something well, but when it gets too much and no one notices I go away to search and heal wounds for a bit
Raffila Millgrove: they used to have endless workshops about find your passion related to work and it's so much b,s, really. there's work like garbage collecting that has to be done. few people are going to make it their passion.
Falze1 Resident: there are those who think the world is a better place because they cleaned up the shit

Aphrodite Macbain: and then it accumulates again
druth Vlodovic: when there are punitive consequences to not doing good you start looking for little tricks to "work the system" and much of the satisfaction of the job itself goes away
Raffila Millgrove: you can take pride in your work.. any work.. but good grief.. passion for work. that is partly luck.. that you saw and took the opportunity.. or were able to make one.
Zen Arado: I know women who love being care workers

Raffila Millgrove: there's a difference between pride and passion in work i think.
ShinjuJin Resident: nods, like ability and talent
druth Vlodovic: there are rhythms in all of life
Raffila Millgrove: pride is possible in almost all work ... passion is different.
druth Vlodovic: things get better and worse over time due to many things, including simply mood
Falze1 Resident: seems to be what attitude YOU put on it
Aphrodite Macbain: attitude is everything
ShinjuJin Resident: if like me, most people will do a lot of uninteresting things for the chance to stumble upon the fascinating jewels along the way
Zen Arado: lots of life is mundane yes
Raffila Millgrove: really? you get a very horrible boss there is no attitude you can put on it.. you gotta wait till he/she is gone or find another position.. there is no attitude that's going to make the job a happy one.
Zen Arado: we have to slog through
Wol Euler: the secret of happiness is to learn to enjoy the uninteresting things
ShinjuJin Resident: :))
druth Vlodovic: for instance, I just realized that on my street I hardly ever see garbage floating around or people's bins and lids sitting in the middle of the street after garbage pickup
druth Vlodovic: so somebody is taking pride
Aphrodite Macbain: we can't always be in a constant high - it would be exhausting
Zen Arado: yes agree with Wol
ShinjuJin Resident: and that pride becomes collective
Wol Euler nods.
Raffila Millgrove: i think we have to acknowledge that some experiences are just downright unpleasant and make plans and hope for change.
Zen Arado: live in the present with full awareness and life is more interesting
druth Vlodovic: and horrible bosses, and coworkers; decide if something is a drag or not
Aphrodite Macbain: acceptance of things as they are?
Falze1 Resident: live near somebody that likes to sweep the floors and streets
Zen Arado: but still....
ShinjuJin Resident: rituals can be very freeing
Zen Arado: hell is other people as Sartre pointed out
Raffila Millgrove: you accept, i think, what you cannot change, the rest you consider if you can.. make a change...
druth Vlodovic: I am afraid that many multinationals have decided that if they make work horrible then the workers will ask for less, or maybe they are just bad people :(
Aphrodite Macbain ponders the concept of bad people
Raffila Millgrove: what we miss .. are the opportunities to make change.. sometimes we don't see them till too late.. or we don't want to "make waves".
Zen Arado: so more awareness again?
Raffila Millgrove: I am not always sure on what i have to accept and what i could.... make it different...
Aphrodite Macbain: nods. Sometimes just resisting can make change
ShinjuJin Resident: largely I think it is ignorance, that people live in very diff worlds

Wol Euler: combined with an ignorance that those doing "lesser" work are not lesser persons for it
Zen Arado: not thinking things 'should' be a certain way
Aphrodite Macbain: who defines "lesser work?"

Wol Euler: the people who feel that do, aph

Wol Euler: I guess you never worked in McDonalds?

Wol Euler: the office workers who came for lunch treated us like dog dirt

Raffila Millgrove: you get greed into a picture Shin.. it's not ignorance. it's greed and that seems to be getting more common.. or maybe it's just a cycle and we're in a greedy one.
ShinjuJin Resident: and really, how could one know if they didn't experience it. With illness, i find I get the most advice from people who have never been ill
ShinjuJin Resident: well intended loving people
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
Raffila Millgrove: yeah as a cancer survivor.. what i hand out is nothing. i just listen and nod. i rarely say a word of 'advice'. i was first one of my age group to go down with it.. so i been "listening" a long time now which is ok...
ShinjuJin Resident thinks of Buddha leaving the palace.. palaces are generally invisible when you are born into them
Wol Euler: exactly
Zen Arado: Mc Donalds palaces
Zen Arado: why did I say that?

Aphrodite Macbain: lol Zen

Zen Arado: :)
ShinjuJin Resident: Raffi, it is hard, yet probably there is a comfort only you could give at times
Wol Euler nods to Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: well the fact that i survived seems a comfort in a way. lol
ShinjuJin Resident giggles
ShinjuJin Resident: YES
Raffila Millgrove: that's all i can offer really. just being around still.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes-here you are Raffi!
ShinjuJin Resident: thanks for hanging around, Raffi :)
Aphrodite Macbain claps
Falze1 Resident: YEA
Wol Euler applauds!
Zen Arado: thanks everyone for hanging around so long
Zen Arado: :)
ShinjuJin Resident: :)) agrees

Aphrodite Macbain: yes- what a great bunch you are
Raffila Millgrove: truthfully.. all this listening to cancer stories. gosh i hate it. it's not good for me. i don't' want to focus on it, but i have to listen .... once i told the person.. hey i just cannot be here to support you.. i am so sorry. when you get your hair back.. i will take you to lunch and you can tell me all about it.
Zen Arado: why is it always such a big shock when you get cancer?
Zen Arado: I mean a high proportion do
Raffila Millgrove: she was very understanding and had lots of other support so i got together as friends with her after her hair came back. very relieved she lived thru it all.
ShinjuJin Resident: I've done something similar Raffi... can make one seem ruthless but they probably were less apologetic about self care, for your having shown that
Aphrodite Macbain: and she had you there as a friend
Raffila Millgrove: honestly, people with heart trouble are much easier somehow to "deal with" than cancer. Cancer.. is one scary thing.. all around.
Wol Euler: I think because it's an alien beast inside us
Raffila Millgrove: lot more suffering and pain in cancer than heart that's for sure.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. a vicious silent intruder
Zen Arado: but still we think WE can't get that, only other people
druth Vlodovic: funny, there isn't always a "right" way to do or say something, and we tend to get hung up on doing it the "right" way

Death and nothingness

Raffila Millgrove: i read somewhere that people are less afraid of death.. than they are of suffering... that's where the fear is. not actual death.
Wol Euler: agreed, raffi, that is definitely true in my case :)
ShinjuJin Resident likes to listen to stories on things like Moth podcast, where people get a chance to tell more whole stories, dark light in-between, be irreverent, typical etc
Aphrodite Macbain: nods, yes, it's the dying that we fear, not the finality of death itself
Zen Arado: though I think the ego fears non existence ferociously
Raffila Millgrove: it is true according to a lot of studies. people don't want to suffer and they especially don't want to drag friends and family thru their suffering.
ShinjuJin Resident nods
Zen Arado: that's what religions are for...to give hope of continuation
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Wol Euler: http://themoth.org/
druth Vlodovic: "what dreams may come" good movie btw
Raffila Millgrove: you don't really have to suffer these days.. with end stage cancer.. the thing is that so many people/families etc.. think they have to fight and hang on and can't take advantage of .... a different way to let go.
Zen Arado: nothingness is so ..empty
Falze1 Resident: Oh, I love the Moth
druth Vlodovic: I'll take nothingness
Zen Arado: it's not much fun maybe:)
Raffila Millgrove: what dreams may come is one of my fav movies. visually it is absolutely stunning.
Aphrodite Macbain: Buddhism teaches us how to die..
ShinjuJin Resident: sometimes the feeling of uselessness is the suffering, letting go of what you thought you'd accomplish, etc. even if it is an illusion that if you'd not had the obstacle you would have necessarily done the things :)
druth Vlodovic: it is hard to "let go" and I often find myself on the edge of the cliff, working up the courage to fly, rather than hang on
Wol Euler: that film sounds incredibly weepy but I think I'd like it
ShinjuJin Resident: beautiful film
ShinjuJin Resident: Buddhism questions whether we're alive in the first place, too
druth Vlodovic: it is and it isn't, it's one of Mork's best dramatic roles (I can never remember the actor's name)
Wol Euler: Robin Williams
Bruce Mowbray: Robin Williams
ShinjuJin Resident grins... Mork!
ShinjuJin Resident: lolool
druth Vlodovic: yeash, him
Zen Arado: yeh death is conceptual as Norman Fischer said in a recent talk
Aphrodite Macbain: remembers Mork and Mindy
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we can talk about death next week...
Zen Arado: heheh
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if people will come...
Zen Arado: we might be dead
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I will come, if I can.
Zen Arado: or :(
ElanVitalo Resident: me too.
Falze1 Resident: good, you are obligated not to die before next week
SilasAndrews Resident: me too.
ShinjuJin Resident: I try. My son is in pianoso I'll always be late
Wol Euler smiles.
ShinjuJin Resident: heheh
Zen Arado: where's pianoso?
ShinjuJin Resident puts on her "conscripted by Aph" shirt
Falze1 Resident: insert space
Aphrodite Macbain: Just hold off until next Tuesday...
Zen Arado: :)
ShinjuJin Resident: excuse me lovely people. thank you for this talk Aph and everyone
Zen Arado: bye Shin
Wol Euler: goodnight, shinju
Falze1 Resident: thank you all
Wol Euler: and goodnight everyone, I should head towards bed
Aphrodite Macbain: byee Shin and Faze1
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Shin.
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Zen.
Zen Arado: bye everybody
ShinjuJin Resident: Night :) feel better Wol
Aphrodite Macbain: sleep well Wol
Wol Euler: thank you all for the discussion
Aphrodite Macbain: get better
Wol Euler: thanks!
Wol Euler: ♥
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you Aph and everyone.
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Bruce and all your supporters
ElanVitalo Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
SilasAndrews Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: and thank you Raffi for your passionate engagement :-)
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bruce and Raffi'
Raffila Millgrove: bye all.