2015.02.26 13:00 - False Memories, Hypnotism, Hallucinations, and Belief

The Guardians for this meeting were Storm and Shinju. The comments are by Shinju.

"Just because it is all in your mind, Harry, doesn't mean it isn't real." -Professor Dumbledore

Bruce Mowbray: Howdy, Eliza!
Shinju: Hi Bruce, Elan :)
Shinju smiles
Shinju: How are we today?
Bruce Mowbray: We are still cold... but have hopes that it will soon warm up a bit.
Shinju: that would be good news
Shinju: it is terribly warm here
ElanVitalo: Indeed, it would.
Shinju: cold not so easy on the gears, Elan?
ElanVitalo: Tonight we'll be back in the "single digits," as they say.
ElanVitalo: I'm just grateful that I'm not warm-blooded.
Shinju: :)

ElanVitalo: Heya, Storm.
Shinju: So I've been listening to the excellent Beyond Belief series you recommended Bruce
Shinju: very addictive
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Storm.
Shinju: Hi Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Hullo all :)
Bruce Mowbray: OH. I'm happy you're enjoying it.
Bruce Mowbray: You can understand why i watched it for ten straight nights.
Shinju: nice gradations of argument
Shinju: yes I do :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, very good presenters, I thought.
Shinju: most are
Shinju: a few must have felt terribly out of place
Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers.
Shinju: and I admire that they'd be part anyway

Bruce Mowbray: I think that conference was held during a weekend about nine years ago.
Bruce Mowbray: (if my subtraction is correct.)
Shinju: not so much progress since then, then :)

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I will find a link, please excuse a sec.
Shinju: sure
Shinju: Any news on the land deals front, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: No.
Storm Nordwind: I simply wait now.
Shinju: ok
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Shinju: I took all the things I could take, from the retreat center

Shinju: Hi Bleu :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Bleu :)
Shinju: Eliza shared her t-shirt with me, really like it
Bleu Oleander: :)
Storm Nordwind smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Here's a link to the first session of the conference. . . .
Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyFkAfmwFA
Shinju: she also gave me some money and suggested I buy jeans that fit... snob :P
Shinju: Thanks, Bruce!
Bleu Oleander: lol
Bleu Oleander: Eliza the fashionista
Shinju: by comparison anyway
Bruce Mowbray: yw.

Shinju: When I was listening to the talks I kept asking myself where PaB fits in to such discussions
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Shinju: a few in the conference, like Neil Degrasse Tyson, I guess were talking about efforts to have secular or science based community that would meet some of the desires of people who typically attend churches
Shinju: but I don't really see PaB as that
Shinju: so wondering others' thoughts
Bleu Oleander: not sure what you are talking about???
Bruce Mowbray: What impressed me (in relation to PaB - which didn't even exist when that conference was held) was hold "real" science is a constant investigation -- NOT a system of "beliefs."
Shinju: sparked by discussions at a Beyond Belief conference Bruce gave links to, but really a common set of challenges and discussions these days, about religion and reason
Bruce Mowbray: We're talking about the "Beyond Belief" conference held at the Salk Institute in San Diego about nine years ago, Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: ah ok thanks
Shinju: good point Bruce

Shinju: Pema always says "not believe and not disbelieve"
Bruce Mowbray: VERY thought provoking presentations by some very well-known scientists and other thinkers.
Storm Nordwind: How else could a true scientist operate?
Shinju: I think people, even scientists, can't help but come from some framework, maybe hidden?
Bruce Mowbray: for sure.
Bleu Oleander: I guess it's not about "belief" as such
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps. But no one stays the same over time. People change. Some evolve.
Shinju nods
Bruce Mowbray: The conference was clearly populated by persons of an atheist persuasion - like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris.
Shinju: usually there is an agenda, even if not admitted, like I think many at the conference were asking what might be best for the world in terms of future peace... a world without belief?
Bruce Mowbray: (OOOOPS -- SORRY. Did not realize I had my voice turned on.)
Shinju has no sound on this computer so didn't notice ^^
Bruce Mowbray: :)

Bruce Mowbray: I'm not saying that they did not have agendas . . . They clearly did have.
Bleu Oleander: most do
Shinju nods
Bruce Mowbray: But I also felt that the moderator did a wonderful job of mixing approaches . . . and I understand that there was no set schedule, so the moderator was able to fit in presenters in a way that made the whole thing feel like a sort of dialogue.
Bleu Oleander: will listen later ... thanks for link
Shinju: there wasn't much mention of corporate interests and money in the reasons for why peace is illusive, but perhaps that's a different conference :)
Bruce Mowbray: I hope you don't get hooked like I did, Bleu... 20 hours of videos!
Shinju: true, Bruce, from all I heard
Bleu Oleander: oh ok so maybe not the whole thing :)
Shinju: lol

Bruce Mowbray: it is fascinating to note how much as changed in such a short time, though.
Shinju: think so?
Bruce Mowbray: the points that Sam Harris made about radical Islam, for example, seem to have come true in spades.
Bruce Mowbray: and the progress with fMRI scans is rather amazing.
Bruce Mowbray: and other fields of psychological research....

Shinju: the lady who spoke about false memory fascinated me
Bleu Oleander: that's from 2006 so probably some changes since then
Bruce Mowbray: YES!
Bruce Mowbray: recently we had a case that - - - with a NBC news anchorman who had to go on leave...

--BELL--

Shinju: ooh didn't think about that
Bruce Mowbray: NBC News anchor Brian Williams, who apologized on the air Wednesday night for lying about an experience covering the Iraq War, is now facing scrutiny over his gripping accounts of Hurricane Katrina, the disaster that burnished his nightly news bona fides almost a decade ago.
Bruce Mowbray: Could those be "false memories"?
Shinju: there seems to be some confusion for a pilot also, about the accounts

Storm Nordwind: You don't remember something as it happened. You only remember things the way you last remembered them.
Storm Nordwind: If you convince yourself, you will create new memories.
Bruce Mowbray: The point that the psychologist at the conference was making seem to be that many people have a false memory of a conversation with God . . .
Shinju: even as something happens we are missing a lot
Shinju: but sometimes those missing things seem to show up in memory
Shinju: so weird
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, storm. All of our memories are constructions.

Shinju: I've been trying to convince a friend to try self hypnotism to quit smoking, but she is religious and doesn't trust the process
Bruce Mowbray nods, and neither do I.
Storm Nordwind: Are those two things related?
Bruce Mowbray: which two things, storm?
Shinju: I see them as related, implanting a sense of oneself
Shinju: seeing oneself as not a smoker
Storm Nordwind: "she is religious and doesn't trust the process"
Shinju: she feels they are
Bruce Mowbray: hmmm. thanks.
Shinju: as though only god should tamper with her mind?
Shinju: not sure

Bruce Mowbray: My problem is that I don't trust the hypnotist....
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Shinju: yourself? :)
Shinju: lol
Bruce Mowbray: No, the only hypnotist that I know who works on a professional basis is a ex-lady friend of mine
Shinju: I generally trust my mind to spit something out if what I feed it is sour
Shinju: ooooh
Bruce Mowbray: and I severed our relationship because of a lack of trust, frankly.
Shinju: :(
Storm Nordwind: A skeptic might suggest that she is afraid of one form of hypnosis that might override the form of mass-hypnosis she has already succumbed to.
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Shinju: astute observation

Bruce Mowbray: My lady friend is quite a bit of work with weight control and smoking cessation.... I understand that she is very successful with her clients, and I continue to maintain her website for her.
Bruce Mowbray: www.circlevillehypnotherapy.com
Shinju: I think SL is a kind of light hypnosis at times, or at least creates memories in settings as if they'd happened... as if the trees had grown over time and the breeze is blowing...
Bruce Mowbray: I regard her as an excellent hypnotist, btw.
Shinju: that's nice of you, but how strange that you trust her for others but not yourself
Shinju: too close?
Bruce Mowbray: there are just some things that I don't wish to go into ( things from my past, I mean). I think it would be different if it were a matter of smoking or weight loss, though.
Shinju: understood

Bruce Mowbray: One is in a very vulnerable position under hypnosis, I feel.
Bruce Mowbray: So trust is quite important.
Shinju: yes
ElanVitalo listens, agrees about trust.
Shinju: my therapist was a hypnotist but I always felt we were in collaboration
Bruce Mowbray: excellent. . . that's how it really should be.
Shinju: and sessions were often more just guided relaxations/meditations
Shinju: helping me find space to have perspective

[a few personal lines edited out]

Bruce Mowbray: in the "Beyond Belief" conference, the psychologist who is interested in false memories was specifically directing her presentation to the plight of individuals who claim to have a memory of Jesus or some divine being in encountering them in a verbalized relationship. Since most of the people at the conference were atheists, her presentation was well received.
Bleu Oleander: well those memories are real to them
Shinju nods
Storm Nordwind: It is possible, I feel, to be clairvoyant and atheist (in the common, if not exact meaning of the word) at the same time!
Bruce Mowbray: yes, those memories were "real" --- for them.
Shinju: I agree Storm!

--BELL--

Shinju: I'd love to hear that presentation!
Bleu Oleander: what do you mean by clairvoyant?
Bruce Mowbray: (As I understand it, most of that psychologists work has to do with defending persons who have been sued by individuals who claim to have a memory of being assaulted by them.)
Bruce Mowbray: and her work is to demonstrate that those memories of assault are false, if it's possible to demonstrate that.
Storm Nordwind: In this specific instance, I mean clairvoyance as one who can talk with gods.
Bruce Mowbray: There is a long tradition of persons conversing with gods, of course - - - or what's a Mercury for?
Bruce Mowbray: (aka Hermes.)
Bleu Oleander: ok thanks
Shinju: I don't call visions I've had false memories or clairvoyance, but I'm pretty comfortable with seeing them as something I don't understand and something perhaps more will be known about over time
Bruce Mowbray nods, and agrees with Eliza.
Shinju: when they first started, in my teens, I thought they were something particular because that's all I had a framework for
Bleu Oleander: Oliver Sachs has a great book, Hallucinations, you might enjoy
Storm Nordwind: Indeed. We accept them and remember them, gradually more over time, if they prove useful (rather than just fascinating).
Shinju: love him, sadly :(
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bruce Mowbray: I also recall some profound visions, Eliza, and they are dear memories . . . and I would not want them erased or deleted.
Shinju: amen :))
Storm Nordwind nods
Bleu Oleander: our minds are very creative :)
Bruce Mowbray: very important steppingstones on my spiritual path, indeed.
Storm Nordwind: Indeed. And they can winnow out the useful bits of that creativity

Shinju: that's the big question now... about targeting actual traumatic memories and deleting them
Bruce Mowbray: And that's what I was referring to with my friend the hypnotherapist......
Shinju: which feels like laziness to me.... sure it takes a process to learn to cope, but worthwhile
Bruce Mowbray: the traumatic memories, I mean.
Shinju: ahhh, I see
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Shinju: then again, lots seems stolen from a person as they learn to cope
Storm Nordwind: Why stolen?
Shinju: time mainly, that they may not be fully functioning
Shinju: really the time before they realize they have been coping
Bruce Mowbray: I told her some very private matters, and the next thing I knew all of her friends were talking to me about those things. . . so I decided to be more careful.
Shinju: well that's just unethical ...grr
Storm Nordwind shakes his head sadly
Bruce Mowbray: yes! unethical! and I finally severed our relationship when she started talking to me about her clients and their secrets.
Shinju: thats why therapists need other therapists
Bruce Mowbray: so you can see that it was a matter of trust....
Shinju: mhm

Bruce Mowbray: but I still feel that "false memories" is a valid ground for serious psychological work.
Storm Nordwind: The ability to help, the desire to help, and the willingness to be ethical - or even conscious of what that means - are all completely separate things, that overlaps in some people and not in others.
Bruce Mowbray: I had never heard that research was being done in this area until I watched that series of videos from the conference.

Shinju: probably a good solution would be a pensieve (sp?) like in Harry Potter
Shinju: where one can remove certain memories and set them aside to come back to
Shinju: once one has more data :)
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh!
Storm Nordwind is completely unaware of the Harry Potter universe
Shinju: ohhh some wonderful concepts in it
Bleu Oleander: haven't read either :)
Bruce Mowbray: I was hoping for someone like the clairvoyant character in Star Trek -- Troi???
Shinju: it is pictured as a large bowl, a bit like the fountain here, and with swirly metalic or pearly slivers of memory one draws out of their mind and places in
Shinju: and if you then dip your head in later, you are taken back
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! Yes, I remember that....
Shinju: talk about imagination!
Bruce Mowbray: for sure!
Storm Nordwind: if two people dip their heads in the same bowl, can they share memories?
Shinju: yes, can go in hand-in-hand
Bruce Mowbray: wonderful!
Storm Nordwind: A nice fictional device. :)

Shinju: and come to think of it, there was a memory tampered with, in the books
Shinju: when they looked at it, there was obvious bad editing
Shinju: :))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magica...otter#Pensieve
"

A Pensieve is a stone basin used to store and review memories. Covered in mystic runes, it contains memories whose physical form is neither gas nor liquid. A witch or wizard can extract their own or another's memories, store them in the Pensieve, and review them later. It also relieves the mind when it becomes cluttered with information. Anyone can examine the memories in the Pensieve, which also allows viewers to fully immerse themselves in the memories stored within, much like a magical form of virtual reality.

Users of these devices view the memories from a third-person-point-of-view, providing a near-omniscient perspective of the events preserved. Rowling confirmed memories in the Pensieve allow one to view details of things that happened even if they did not notice or remember them, and stated "that's the magic of the Pensieve, what brings it alive."^[29] The memories contained in the Pensieve have the appearance of silver threads. Memories that have deteriorated due to age, or that were heavily manipulated or tampered with to alter perspectives (such as Slughorn's), may appear thick and jelly-like and offer obscured viewing. 

Bruce Mowbray: (This reminds me of discussions we had in Maxine's a dream group -- about whether people can share sleeping dreams.)
Shinju: did those experiments work?
Bruce Mowbray: we did not experiment with sharing dreams, as I recall, but I also recall that several people felt the dreams could be shared.
Shinju: ah
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know how you would check that out - - - unless the next morning you could compare notes, etc..
Storm Nordwind: I was somewhat querulous with a friend, when I was 5 years old, after he'd claimed to be able to share that with me, and he didn't produce!

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: hmmm, discouraging, storm.
Shinju giggles
Shinju: "empty your pockets!"
Bruce Mowbray: or better to say, disillusioning, perhaps.
Storm Nordwind: I learned a little more about people that day. :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: an older but wiser boy, to be sure.
Shinju: some dream researchers have found that people trying to share dreams can come up with the same shapes or themes
Shinju: it is one reason why I find the dream circle fascinating
Bruce Mowbray: well, since it dreams by definition have an archetypal quality to them . . . one would certainly think that some sharing at some level would almost necessarily happen.
Storm Nordwind: I've had no evidence of dream sharing personally. I've had much more success with waking telepathy.
Bruce Mowbray nods and is fascinated to hear more.
Shinju: me too

Storm Nordwind: You can set up an exercise.
Storm Nordwind: With two people who live at a distance.
Storm Nordwind: Say 500 miles apart.
Bruce Mowbray: kk....
Storm Nordwind: And you syncronize them them with an exact schedule.
Storm Nordwind: Then one person, say at the hour, rests their eyes on a unique image of their choosing for 5 minutes.
Storm Nordwind: The other person attempts to see what the other is seeing.
Storm Nordwind: Then they shift to another image for 5 minutes and then another.
Storm Nordwind: After 15 minutes the roles are reversed.
Storm Nordwind: And after the entire exercise you can compare notes.
Storm Nordwind: It's a simple experiment you can do with more or less precision, depending on your intent and background.
Storm Nordwind: I have tried it a couple of times with undeniable success.
Shinju: I like that
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. interesting. Amazing, actually.
Shinju: it has pretty clear boundaries
Shinju: and one can take notes separately
Shinju: to compare

Bleu Oleander: were you able to know every image the other person viewed?
Storm Nordwind: It helps if the "receiver" can sketch out what they "see".
Storm Nordwind: I was very accurate. But the problem was I sometimes saw what they saw (or felt), but did not know what I was seeing.
Shinju: that is sort of what the dream researchers did.... so, like one person would report dreaming of a balloon and another of a skull (similar shape?)

Bruce Mowbray: perhaps our vision is also archetypal - - - I mean, we do learn to "see" and so perception is obviously culturally constructed . . .
Bruce Mowbray: and archetypal.
Bruce Mowbray: this stuff may deal with the collective unconscious.

Storm Nordwind: You quickly learn how to do it so that your preconceptions are left behind and don't get in the way.
Storm Nordwind: So you deal with textures and shapres and colors and you don't try to impose meaning on them.
Shinju: Sam Harris has written a bit about some of these things but doesn't seem to see any incongruence between criticizing religion in general and praising tibetan techniques for instance, etc
Bruce Mowbray: When one first meditates, it is not uncommon to experience "powers" that one did not recognize before . . . I recall that once in a meditation group over 40 years ago I was able to go around the circle of maybe 10 people and tell every single one of them what they experience during their meditations.
Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure, Bruce, that what turned out to be a VW bus is a candidate for the collective unconscious! But who knows? ;-))
Shinju: heheh
Bleu Oleander: lol
Shinju: that's true Bruce
Shinju: Stim helped me a lot with that kind of thing.. reminding me not to get too caught up or distracted by dreams
Shinju: not sure if it worked :))
Storm Nordwind smiles

Bruce Mowbray: well, in my case, the visions were very very specific - - - like a standing white polar bear in a museum, and a specific shape of a cookie-cutter . . . and a couple of other things that I remember but won't go into here.
Shinju: but I do try to keep my eye on the road
Bleu Oleander: I think this is still out there ... http://www.skepdic.com/randi.html
Bruce Mowbray: it convinced me that clairvoyance is real.
Storm Nordwind: I don't equate telepathy with clairvoyance, though I'm sure some do.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I don't know whether it was telepathy or clairvoyance - - and I'm not sure of the difference, actually.
Shinju: Bruce, do you thik the environment influenced the clarity with which you were able to access that vision?
Shinju: shared focus, etc
Bruce Mowbray: I am sure that the environment did influence it.
Bleu Oleander: this was an interesting article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/09/ma...andi.html?_r=0
Shinju: first time seeing his photo :)
Bruce Mowbray: but I still have vivid memories of sitting in that circle and making an account of every single individual's meditation experience -- sharing our meditations after-the-fact was part of the procedure, you understand.
Shinju: yes
Bleu Oleander: fun pic!
Shinju: I don't know what to call that experience... of having walked in on someone's mind when you weren't invited (considering what Storm said)
Shinju: is that more clairvoyance than telepathy?
Storm Nordwind shrugs

Bruce Mowbray: "There are more things in heaven and earth than. . . . , Horatio."

--BELL--

Shinju: :))
Storm Nordwind: To me it's whether what one experiences turns out to be useful or not. I'm a through and through pragmatist!
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Shinju: understanding builds trust though, and helps set boundaries
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that the psychologist at the conference was also sincerely pragmatic. . . She wanted to help people who had been accused of felonious behavior by persons with false memories. I salute her for that.
Shinju: indeed

Storm Nordwind: The original telepathy experiment I conducted 25 years ago was interesting, but nowadays I think I'd just pick up the phone or use the internet to communicate with someone! :)
Shinju grins
Bleu Oleander: :)
Shinju: I have hunches and experiences to draw from, but no beliefs to trust in really

Bruce Mowbray: Alas, this is been a great session, and I thank you for it, one and all. Now it's time for me to be a-scraping up supper.
Shinju: as soon as I'm sure I understand, poof
Storm Nordwind: Bon appetit, Bruce
Shinju: Thanks Bruce! glad you could make it - stay warm
Bruce Mowbray: TY, everyone.
Shinju: and Elan too! good you are wearing a scarf
Bleu Oleander waves to Bruce and Elan
ElanVitalo: Yeppers, a RED scarf!
Storm Nordwind: Very fetching, Elan :)
Shinju: :))
Shinju: Eliza would approve
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good people.

Shinju: you're quiet today Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: listening :)
Bleu Oleander: no experience with telepathy or clairvoyance perhaps
Shinju: it is interesting to compare those with some of the work by Oliver Saks and others
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: many of his experiences were drug induced

Storm Nordwind: The odd thing is that many people seem to think that clairvoyance and critical thinking are mutually exclusive. Of course this is sometimes the case, and maybe that's the only people they've seen. But I assure you it is not universally true. :)
Shinju: I feel this will be one of the big changes in the next 20 years... that we will have more understanding around faculties that seemed to contradict one another in previous times
Bleu Oleander: like you say if its useful to you go with it :)
Storm Nordwind: Indeed Bleu. :)
Bleu Oleander: a bit of a pragmatist myself :)
Shinju: like, one thing that is obvious in SL, is that people can experience themselves as very different identities and draw those identities in different ways
Shinju: someone might say that is dangerous experiementation, potentially fragmenting
Bleu Oleander: but we do that in rl too
Shinju: right!
Storm Nordwind: Or are too lazy to draw an identity, as in my case!
Bleu Oleander: you seem to have a strong identity Storm
Storm Nordwind: That is what you see, not what I give :)
Bleu Oleander: exactly

Shinju: it was more of a psychiatric diagnoses before however... whereas now we have more space around the notion and can play more, safely and out in the open
Shinju: ah, one researcher talked about divided personalities, where left hemisphere would answer that they didn't believe in god but the right would say they did :)
Storm Nordwind: We are lucky to be able to do so. Privileged almost. So many adults in this world do not, and perhaps will never, have the opportunity.
Shinju: so true
Shinju: amazing that entertaining these concepts doesn't throw one off mental kilter really
Shinju: because we're allowed not to buy into them


Shinju: Storm, any chance you will be snowed in again this weekend? lol
Storm Nordwind: I am already snowed in!
Bleu Oleander: can't believe all the snow!
Shinju: well you can't dig out until after guardian session
Bleu Oleander: Boston over 100 inches!
Storm Nordwind: It continues to fall as we speak.
Shinju: omgoodness
Shinju: it is SO HOT here
Shinju: :::grumbles:::
Bleu Oleander: lovely here
Storm Nordwind: It's lovely here too, Bleu!
Bleu Oleander: come on down!
Shinju smiles
Storm Nordwind: Nope. I like the cold and the snow.
Shinju: Arizona is on my list of places I'm willing to live now
Shinju: seeing that the conferences are pretty interesting
Bleu Oleander: I like the snow too ... about once a year :)

Storm Nordwind: The soonest date when snow is not on our weather forecast is next Wednesday, 6 days from now.
Shinju: must be romantic
Shinju: except when one has to drive to work
Storm Nordwind: Ah... Darby and Joan do not need snow for romance. :)
Shinju giggles
Bleu Oleander: :)
Shinju: I got a lead on a puppy today
Bleu Oleander: awww
Shinju: so a new romance may be on its way
Storm Nordwind: Did it struggle a lot before then? ;)
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Shinju: hahah... 5 years of waiting

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: wow i've had two in that time!
Shinju: big decision, and I wasn't confident that son would be able to do most of the care until now
Shinju: he wasn't exactly a model salamander owner
Storm Nordwind lied about the snow forecast. The next day that snowfall is not forecast for where I live is next Thursday, 7 days hence.
Shinju: wow
Shinju: sounds so nice
Bleu Oleander: wow, can't imagine that!
Storm Nordwind: The snow is nice. The driving is nice (in a Subaru). It's idiot drivers that make it less so!
Bleu Oleander: we're getting rain next week
Shinju: we're getting more humid and hot :)
Bleu Oleander: we have idiot drivers in the rain here
Storm Nordwind: Can we send ours to be with yours, Bleu?
Shinju: in miami everyone "drives according to the rules of his or her home country" as Dave Barry says
Bleu Oleander: sure why not ... just warn me
Shinju: two friends last week spontaneously praised their subarus
Shinju: so now you are the third, Storm
Shinju: must be great for snow
Bleu Oleander: I would like one of those
Storm Nordwind: It seems they are the best in snowy weather here. AWD on them all.
Bleu Oleander: I think might be good puppy cars?
Shinju smiles
Bleu Oleander has to think about those kinda things


Storm Nordwind: Pema told me something interesting about Subarus, 5 or 6 years ago.
Storm Nordwind: He mentioned that Subaru is japanese for the Pleiades.
Storm Nordwind: But they have 6 visible stars, not the Seven Sisters as we have in the west.
Storm Nordwind: Hence the car's logo.
Shinju: a wonderful background!
Storm Nordwind: Well there's more - if you research it. But that's for private reading, I suggest.
Shinju: lovely


Shinju: Okay... thank you both for your beautiful company
Shinju: wish us luck in finding some clarity this weekend
Storm Nordwind: My word, the time has flown!
Shinju: fast day today!
Bleu Oleander: ok nice to see you both today
Storm Nordwind: Then i wish you such luck, Shinjujin!
Shinju: :) may the snow bring you to SL
Bleu Oleander: have a nice weekend!
Shinju smiles
Storm Nordwind: May your clarity shine like the pearl of your name!
Bleu Oleander: nice!
Shinju: more amens :))
Shinju bows
Bleu Oleander: bye