The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

 
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Druth.
ElanVitalo Resident: Welcome, druth.
Bruce Mowbray: wb, druth.
ElanVitalo Resident: Welcome back.
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
druth Vlodovic: sorry, I guess I'm finally uninstalling firestorm
Bruce Mowbray: I also had to do that.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm running the SL viewer exclusively now.
druth Vlodovic: I have one called singularity but it uses the old system with the notices
druth Vlodovic: eh, I don't like it for discussions
druth Vlodovic: which is mainly what I do in SL

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I've not heard of "Singularity" - but it has a catchy name.
Bruce Mowbray: I see you're still sporting your bomb-head shirt. . . received any death threats about that?
druth Vlodovic: lol, not yet
Bruce Mowbray: :)
druth Vlodovic: mind you I still haven't shelled out the money to have one made RL
ElanVitalo Resident wishes he were able to wear shirts.
druth Vlodovic: it's kind of an obligation :/
Bruce Mowbray: :)
druth Vlodovic: you can get somebody to paint it on your chassis
ElanVitalo Resident: Ahhh!
ElanVitalo Resident: Had not thought of that.
druth Vlodovic: I was surprised I couldn't find the shirts already made on the marketplace
Bruce Mowbray wonders why there's no gesture for saying 'no,' or is there?
druth Vlodovic: ??
Bruce Mowbray: I'd think there would be a market for them.
druth Vlodovic: maybe I'll have to start a store
druth Vlodovic: though I'm not a premium member
Bruce Mowbray: That might be asking for trouble, although I'll bet you could find them online - maybe at eBay or some such outlet.
druth Vlodovic: there are places in Ottawa you can have whatever you want printed on a shirt
Bruce Mowbray: Oh. Sry. I thought you meant start a store in RL.
druth Vlodovic: I'm against people being disrespectful to flags and such
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I'm sure there would be in a large town like Ottawa.
druth Vlodovic: but I see this as the reason we need some people doing it
Bruce Mowbray nods.
druth Vlodovic: to test and see if the people in charge are tyrants
druth Vlodovic: I was surprised to see the pope coming out in support of terrorism, in spite of the church's more moderate stand
druth Vlodovic: and fair degree of tolerance on things like it against the Catholics
Bruce Mowbray: In SUPPORT?
druth Vlodovic: he said that people shouldn't do anything to offend religiosity
druth Vlodovic: but not offending someone who is threatening you is to say "violence works"
Bruce Mowbray: Well, that's his job, I guess.
druth Vlodovic: so it supports violence
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
druth Vlodovic: but the worst the Catholics have done to much worse being done to them is to verbally condemn it
Bruce Mowbray: Birth control "works" also, but I don't hear him supporting that.
druth Vlodovic: recently
druth Vlodovic: they don't go around killing doctors who sell it though
druth Vlodovic: some do
ElanVitalo Resident: Heya, Xir.
druth Vlodovic: hi Xir
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Xir.
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Bruce, druth, Elan :)
druth Vlodovic: the problem is that violence does work, and has throughout history
druth Vlodovic: so it needs to be actively opposed
druth Vlodovic: rather than simply passively
Bruce Mowbray ponders violent opposition to violence.
druth Vlodovic: lol, well, opposed doesn't necessarily mean violence
Bruce Mowbray: right.
druth Vlodovic: I believe that if we all just left the Middle East alone entirely, no support, or violence, then they would simply kill each other until they got sick of it
Bruce Mowbray: I used to be a Quaker, and they have all sorts of non-violent methods to oppose something.
druth Vlodovic: they don't leave us alone because we can be used to promote fear and provide enemies for the masses
Bruce Mowbray: They seem to be doing quite a good job of that already.
druth Vlodovic: giving free power to their leader
druth Vlodovic: what methods?
Bruce Mowbray: all sorts of protests, vigils, letters to the editor and stuff like that.
druth Vlodovic: that is what I see this as
Bruce Mowbray: we also held meetings (like music, poetry readings, etc.) at a local coffeehouse.
druth Vlodovic: a non violent protest
druth Vlodovic: maybe I should get two shirts made, then if anybody yells at me for it I can give them the second one
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's why I said the Quakers had all sorts of methods.
druth Vlodovic: sangha
Bruce Mowbray: If you are not wearing the shirt, you can still give copies of it away.
druth Vlodovic: I have the other shirts
Bruce Mowbray nods.
druth Vlodovic: do you want a few copies xir?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, you could give those away and there would still be a copy for you in your folder.
Xirana Oximoxi: yes, please:)
druth Vlodovic: I wonder what would be involved in Elan managing one :)
ElanVitalo Resident: I'd have to go into my textures and re-write them.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I just took off my face light, and the shirt shows up a lot better.
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go...have a nice day all and see you soon! :)
druth Vlodovic: have fun xir
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Xir!
druth Vlodovic: fear shuts down the higher brain functions, making it a wonderful tool for politics
Bruce Mowbray: I think she has a peace-makers art exhibit to attend.
druth Vlodovic: maybe she can find a market for the shirts :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes! Both fear and shame do that.
Bruce Mowbray: It can be demonstrated through f-MRI's too.
druth Vlodovic: this is why I decry religion as a political tool, they tend to use both in large doses
Bruce Mowbray: Fear and shame are highly effective in religious settings as well.
druth Vlodovic: then I look at the old Norse and Greek myths
druth Vlodovic: and the gods acting like spoiled children :-P
Bruce Mowbray: :)
druth Vlodovic: any place you want to control people
Bruce Mowbray: Well, at least the Greeks had something to blame for their own behavior.
druth Vlodovic: religion is the worst since people turn to it when they are at the dark places in their lives
druth Vlodovic: so it is a trap for people at their most vulnerable
Bruce Mowbray: Most Christians (and perhaps Jews, as well) can easily point to saints... and scapegoat their own iniquities onto "others"....
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree.
druth Vlodovic: I grew up with a moral that you aren't supposed to attack people who are weaker than you
Bruce Mowbray: vulnerability is key to receptiveness when it comes to religion.
Bruce Mowbray: please say more.
druth Vlodovic: saying "a demon possessed me" is an interesting way of saying "I didn't mean to do it"
druth Vlodovic: oh you know, "don't hit a girl unless you are one, don't hit a man with glasses
Bruce Mowbray: Isn't that what Jimmy Swaggert claimed after he was caught with a prostitute?
druth Vlodovic: "pick on someone your own size"
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
druth Vlodovic: as long as they take steps to avoid demons in the future I'll let them have it
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe eventually they will evolve to "Don't pick on anyone, regardless of size."
druth Vlodovic: well, the problem isn't fighting, but unfair fighting
ElanVitalo Resident looks forward to robots' taking over.
druth Vlodovic: who am I to say you can't fight if both parties want to?
Bruce Mowbray: When boys at summer camp got into spats, they had us box it out in a ring.
Bruce Mowbray: (Somehow, I thought that sent the wrong message.)
druth Vlodovic: and much of this "zero tolerance" thing is readily used by bullies to use the system as a weapon against innocent people
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees.
druth Vlodovic: no, it made the fight fair and limited
Bruce Mowbray: Being a hermit has real advantages.
druth Vlodovic: you can be angry but you need to express it in a proper manner
druth Vlodovic: rather than now, you are not allowed to be angry
druth Vlodovic: or have any strong emotion really
Bruce Mowbray: If one was a weakling, like I was, the score was quickly settled, and usually NOT in my favor.
Bruce Mowbray: so, I learned to avoid spats at all cost.
druth Vlodovic: ah, if they allowed a weaker opponent against a stronger one then they did it wrong
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
druth Vlodovic: maybe this is why in feudal times they had champions and seconds
Bruce Mowbray: but I did learn not do get into fights.
druth Vlodovic: so you could match people up
Bruce Mowbray nods.
druth Vlodovic: "not getting into fights" can be damaging
Bruce Mowbray: You know, "fairness" is something that children sense very early on.
druth Vlodovic: and if we all become hermits to deal with others then something is wrong
ElanVitalo Resident nods, agrees.
druth Vlodovic: no offense intended, each person should live how they live
druth Vlodovic: "an it harm no one"
Bruce Mowbray: but after several decades of trying to tolerate frazies...
Bruce Mowbray: well, hermithood feels like a viable alternative.
druth Vlodovic: I wouldn't mind it
Bruce Mowbray: I LOVE it, but then I'm quite a self-centered old cuss.
druth Vlodovic: we have done something odd to "tolerate" these days in Canada
Bruce Mowbray: Most of the folks i know are also happy that I'm hermitish.
Bruce Mowbray: please say more.
druth Vlodovic: "tolerate" used to mean I don't get to stop you unless it interferes with my life
Bruce Mowbray: nods... and now?
druth Vlodovic: now it means I have to go out of my way and spare no expense, and read your mind, so I can make you live according to your preference of the day
druth Vlodovic: without regards for harm to others
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh. Political Correctness, so called.
Bruce Mowbray: There is one thing I will NOT tolerate - political correctness or not....
druth Vlodovic: ?
Bruce Mowbray: That is SHAMING - whether it's directed at myself or at others.
Bruce Mowbray: I will call it out at once.
druth Vlodovic: eh
Bruce Mowbray: especially when it involves persons more vulnerable than I.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Qt.
druth Vlodovic: hi QT
Qt Core: Hi all

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: There are many institutions whose "structure" seems to be based on shaming -- church, schools, sometimes governments.. I call them on it, right away.
druth Vlodovic: that is a matter of situation and interpretation
Bruce Mowbray: "Are you trying to diminish this person's dignity by shaming him?" I ask.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it is.
druth Vlodovic: oh yes, that is another way of using fear to induce control
Bruce Mowbray: That's why I ask for clarification.
druth Vlodovic: and making people afraid "be careful little eyes what you see"
Bruce Mowbray: :)
druth Vlodovic: if it is wrong to see something it prevents people from finding out
Bruce Mowbray watches Qt try to find the cushion.
druth Vlodovic: and is a big problem with religions
druth Vlodovic: questioning should be basic and necessary to religion, not anathema to it
druth Vlodovic: but then I see religion as a natural human outgrowth of science plus narrative
Bruce Mowbray: That little children's song ("Be careful little eyes..." ) -- Isn't that a sort of warning not to look at "bad" things because God is also looking at you?
druth Vlodovic: yes
druth Vlodovic: I always found it creepy
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Bruce Mowbray: "never alone" never unseen... never private
druth Vlodovic: Jesus says somewhere that if you look at someone lustfully then you have already raped them
druth Vlodovic: which leads to "why not rape her then, and heck why not kill her after?"
Bruce Mowbray: well, at least committed adultery  with them "in your heart" ... not necessarily raped.
Qt Core: decades ago there was a saying here, got sees you while you vote, not Stalin
druth Vlodovic: but if you get the punishment why not justify it with the crime?
druth Vlodovic: "fairness"
druth Vlodovic: ??
Qt Core: *god" (someone moved my keyboad...
Bruce Mowbray: I don't relate well to such mythologies.
druth Vlodovic: oh "god sees you while you vote"
ElanVitalo Resident: YAYYY God!
druth Vlodovic: so make sure you are moved by your own morals and thoughts rather than fear
Qt Core: it was one of the way to discourage voting for the communist party by the Christian democratic party
druth Vlodovic: I find that the concept of god has gotten so rotten with corruption that it is best discarded
Bruce Mowbray: I "attended" a wonderful conference of very accomplished scientists recently... The conference was titled, Reason, Religion, and Survival.
Qt Core: impose limits in the tribe to not fight with each other and be ready for outside arisen adversities ?
Bruce Mowbray: I can give you a link, if you want it. I was really inspired by these atheists, many of whose names you would surely recognize...
druth Vlodovic: (do you want a shirt QT, the explanation/justification is in my profile)
Bruce Mowbray: Sam Harris, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Richard Dawkins, etc.
druth Vlodovic: please
Bruce Mowbray: kk, just a sec, please.
druth Vlodovic: in China they went whole hog and just declared their leader to be god, then locked him away from the world so he couldn't interfere
druth Vlodovic: I suspect this to be a fairly common progression
Bruce Mowbray: There are 10 two-hour sessions... a lot, but well worth the time:
Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyFkAfmwFA
Qt Core: probably the pharaoh too and even the emperor of Japan in 17th century if I'm not wrong
druth Vlodovic: in xtianity they say that leaders are chosen by god, even the bad ones
druth Vlodovic: I think Islam says that too
Bruce Mowbray: The Caesars also thought themselves to be gods.
Qt Core: probably every religion has explanation for bad things happening, the easiest being that those are tests
druth Vlodovic: and some of Norse mythology is designed to state a bloodline descended from a god
druth Vlodovic: or god is nuts
Bruce Mowbray: Of course, one interpretation of the teachings of Jesus is that we are ALL gods.
druth Vlodovic: many "primitive" gods were spoiled brats with limited intelligence and morals
Bruce Mowbray: :)
druth Vlodovic: there is a story of an explorer coming to an island and being mistaken for a god
druth Vlodovic: then he started to stay longer than the god was supposed to, so to restore balance the natives rose up and violently chased them off
Bruce Mowbray: The Cargo Cults.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Well, check out the Old Testament if you want to see a profile of a psychotic god....
Bruce Mowbray: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult
Bruce Mowbray: I'm going to have to go now. Be well; be safe; be happy.
druth Vlodovic: have fun Bruce
Qt Core: bye Bruce
druth Vlodovic: I think one of the concerns of the cargo cults is that the gods made all the cool stuff, and westerners are rich because they steal it
druth Vlodovic: actually I was thinking about the Bible recently, while reading a collection of stories put together by a professor of cultures
ElanVitalo Resident listens.
druth Vlodovic: and it occurred to me...
druth Vlodovic: doesn't the bible and the stores included read like a scholarly collection?
ElanVitalo Resident: It can so be read,
druth Vlodovic: rather than a "revealed truth" or "manual of behaviour" thing?
ElanVitalo Resident: but from another viewpoint the Bible contradicts itself at almost every turn.
ElanVitalo Resident: Especially the most revered parts of the New Testament....
druth Vlodovic: I suspect the Septuagint of not really concerning itself with daily living so much as providing a representative collection
ElanVitalo Resident: birth, baptism, crucifixion, etc... all highly differing accounts.
Qt Core: ohh, but that demonstrates that it has to be interpreted and who controls the interpretation...
ElanVitalo Resident: of course.
ElanVitalo Resident: Hermeneutics is necessary...
ElanVitalo Resident: (interpretive method).
druth Vlodovic: a xtian friend of mine thinks that the letters portion of the bible needs to be seen as separate from the gospels as the old testament is
ElanVitalo Resident: without a good hermeneutic, the Bible is a hodgepodge of contradictory stories.
druth Vlodovic: I admit I never succeeded in my attempts to read the bloody thing
ElanVitalo Resident: I would agree with your friend.
ElanVitalo Resident: I spent three years in seminary...
ElanVitalo Resident: and the best thing to come out of that was my hermeneutic.
druth Vlodovic: you studied hermes?
ElanVitalo Resident: but now i also must be out of here...
ElanVitalo Resident: so, will leave you with...
druth Vlodovic: aww, have fun elan
druth Vlodovic: hi agatha
ElanVitalo Resident: aggers!
Agatha Macbeth: When's this meeting supposed to start?
Qt Core: Bye Elan, hi Aga
ElanVitalo Resident: Meeting?
druth Vlodovic: now that you are here :)
Agatha Macbeth: Thought we were in the VH
ElanVitalo Resident: Didn't realize there was supposed to be a meeting....
druth Vlodovic: the guardian meeting was cancelled, but we can have it anyway
druth Vlodovic: lots to discuss
Agatha Macbeth: With four of us?
ElanVitalo Resident: yes, much to discuss with the up-coming changes, but i really need to go now.
druth Vlodovic: we are losing funding
ElanVitalo Resident: No offense, but I'm gone, good people.
Agatha Macbeth: Nice scarf Elan
druth Vlodovic: have fun
ElanVitalo Resident: You too!
Qt Core: bye elan
Agatha Macbeth: Oh well
Agatha Macbeth: I'll be off then
druth Vlodovic: ok, have fun agatha
Qt Core: bye Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Ciao Qt, take care Druthy
druth Vlodovic: what is hermeneutic?
Qt Core: i was able to read all or in part sacred books of other religion, but not the Bible, probably scared i would have to seriously think if I'll do that
druth Vlodovic: lol
Qt Core: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics
druth Vlodovic: if you are afraid to think about your religion, or any part of it, then you are doing it wrong
Qt Core: yes, i know
druth Vlodovic: I can't imagine following a creator god who wouldn't enthusiastically jump in when people start examining his stuff
druth Vlodovic: why polytheism is better
druth Vlodovic: you get to worship, bribe and curse gods
druth Vlodovic: and the guy who has the most to do with them? the crazy guy who we don't let live actually "in" town!
druth Vlodovic: huh, your link does odd things

--BELL--

Qt Core: ?
druth Vlodovic: mind you, I do understand the feeling, losing my religion wasn't fun
Qt Core: what odd things ?
druth Vlodovic: it doesn't open, I wiki'd it instead
druth Vlodovic: I have heard that people who don't believe the bible aren't good at metaphor
druth Vlodovic: but a purely metaphorical interpretation of xtianity is something I could have lived with
Qt Core: strange it was a link to wikipedia...
druth Vlodovic: no, I just searched the term, it opened a video that wouldn't play
druth Vlodovic: much of the morality I subscribe to is informed by xtianity, including many of my objections to the religion
Qt Core: don't get how believing in the bible would help in understanding metaphors
druth Vlodovic: other way around
druth Vlodovic: the bible isn't "literally" anything, it is all metaphors
druth Vlodovic: personally I can't vouch for the opinion
Qt Core: yes
druth Vlodovic: what is your current belief system, if you don't mind me asking
Qt Core: mostly Catholic, hard not to follow it being raised in Italy
druth Vlodovic: :)
druth Vlodovic: I have seen indications that Catholicism is lived more practically than it is taught
Qt Core: one wonders if it really is Italy surrounding Vatican City or the other way ;-)
druth Vlodovic: the Vatican wants to surround the world
druth Vlodovic: hmm, Italy and south America are on opposite sides...
druth Vlodovic: THE POPE HAS US SURROUNDED!!!
Qt Core: all religions want that as everyone believes themselves to be The One they want to save everyone
druth Vlodovic: some of that is power mongering, and some is the natural human instinct to help one another
Qt Core: even atheists i suppose would like everyone to become one
druth Vlodovic: some do
druth Vlodovic: which is why they coined the term agnostic
druth Vlodovic: I have met religious atheists :-P
Qt Core: that means don't knowing if there is or there is not a god, if i remember it right
druth Vlodovic: and, some, like me find that religion is often dangerous, and must be treated as such
druth Vlodovic: yes
druth Vlodovic: or not caring
druth Vlodovic: me, I find I can't make myself care about god, per se, but his followers are anything from invisible to helpful to a pain
Qt Core: like most medicaments, cutlery and many useful things
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: my fav comparison is electricity
druth Vlodovic: just don't lick it
Qt Core: well... some do, only on small amounts
Qt Core: ;-)
druth Vlodovic: "hey you should touch this 9 volt with your tongue, it feels really cool"
druth Vlodovic: one wonders about how the current iteration of humanity is the one with the best survival rate :-P
Qt Core: fear of being sued ?

--BELL--

druth Vlodovic: I had the funny idea that you are a sort of monk?
Qt Core: ?
druth Vlodovic: no idea where it cane from
druth Vlodovic: why did you go to seminary?
Qt Core: that was Bruce
druth Vlodovic: oh
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: right,
druth Vlodovic: it was fun to chat, have fun QT
Qt Core: you too Druth, bye