The Guardians for this meeting were ShinjuJin and Storm Nordwind.

ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Cat :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: hello Shin :)
ShinjuJin Resident: oops
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
ShinjuJin Resident: sorry, wardrobe malfunction
Catrinamonblue Resident: lo :) I've been arguing with my hair for 15 min now
ShinjuJin Resident: haha...sometimes have to talk it into shape
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes :)
ShinjuJin Resident: Eliza is far better with clothing than I seem to be
Catrinamonblue Resident: Cat barely gets this clothing thing, another alt would be beyond me altogether I think :)
ShinjuJin Resident: hahah
ShinjuJin Resident: How are you doing? I was reading your way too early session with Wol from last month, was very moved
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm managing, was at her house this week and next week we are starting to clear ir out.
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's an interesting way to get to know someone
ShinjuJin Resident: must be strange
Catrinamonblue Resident: it is, very strange
ShinjuJin Resident: but you feel at relative peace with the situation, from what you've said, which is interesting
Catrinamonblue Resident: she wrote little inspirational saying on scraps of paper... finding them in amongst her things


--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: yes, well I greived many years ago for the mother that could never be
Catrinamonblue Resident: now I am trying to see her as the woman she was, to herself and to others
ShinjuJin Resident nods thoughtfully
ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Good afternoon :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh hello Storm.. sorry didn't see you there
Storm Nordwind: I was lurking quietly ;-)
ShinjuJin Resident: Cat, I wonder if you like her, from the snippets you are getting to read?
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't know yet, I don't dislike her at any rate :)
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
ShinjuJin Resident: fair enough
ShinjuJin Resident: good not to contrive
Qt Core: Hi all
ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Qt :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hello Bruce, Qt :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Bruce Mowbray: Hello!
ShinjuJin Resident: Hey, Bruce :)

ShinjuJin Resident: So...I'm itching to ask...
ShinjuJin Resident: Storm what are your first thoughts on the land situation in light of Pema's email?
Catrinamonblue Resident: listens
Bruce Mowbray listens very carefully.
Storm Nordwind: My first thought is that it's a long overdue surprise :-)
ShinjuJin Resident: I'm sort of relieved because there was this nagging feeling that we haven't been quite occupying our space, and knowing that the cost was being carried...was a little bothered
Storm Nordwind: So what would you like to happen now?
ShinjuJin Resident: yet, well, I'm sure everyone feels the "yet"s
ShinjuJin Resident: Me? I'd pare us down to a nice little cozy space
Catrinamonblue Resident: smiles
Storm Nordwind: Where?
ShinjuJin Resident: and would happily be one to contribute a small monthly amount
ShinjuJin Resident: hmmm, well that's the question
ShinjuJin Resident: I don't know much about land divisions and such, what would make the best sense
ShinjuJin Resident is still not a premium SL member, in any avatar form

Storm Nordwind: If the land were divided here - pared down - to a small claim, presumably supported by some of who was left of PaB, then the rest would have to be sold. That would imply that that land remaining may get neighbors beyond anyone's control.
CuriousBeing Resident: hi all :)
ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Curious I'll give you a short IM of what you missed
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Curious.
ShinjuJin Resident: True, Storm
ShinjuJin Resident: Hello Elan :)
ElanVitalo Resident: Hello!
ShinjuJin Resident: there are quite a few considerations really
ShinjuJin Resident: we have been spoiled :))
CuriousBeing Resident: indeed!
Storm Nordwind: Coffee is brewing ;)
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees.
ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Agatha :)
ShinjuJin Resident smiles
Agatha Macbeth: No sugar for me please
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers.
CuriousBeing Resident: hi Aggers
Agatha Macbeth waves grinnishly

ShinjuJin Resident: what are everyone else's first thoughts?
ShinjuJin Resident: Pema gave three scenarios basically, but I don't think keeping this much land and that many donations yearly makes much sense. Am I wrong?
ShinjuJin Resident: So that leaves paring down, or paring out
ShinjuJin Resident: playing out? :)
Agatha Macbeth: What are we paring down?
Qt Core: beside that how much pf that land is really as in efficiently used ?

ElanVitalo Resident: from Piet's message:

"In the mean time, to keep Pab and related activities going, Maxine and I have been paying the tier for our land out of our own pockets, at $195 per month. We didn't mind doing that for a while, but by now continuing payments of $2,340 per year is becoming a little too much for us, especially since we have so little time to partake in PaB activities, or other SL activities for that matter, ourselves."

ShinjuJin Resident: that's the hard part. In a general sense, that is how I feel, but when I think of what to part with.... really hard to single anything out
ShinjuJin Resident: thanks Curious
(oops, I meant Elan)

Qt Core: can we bring the most important buildings with us, maybe not rezzed at the same time but on need ?
ShinjuJin Resident: interesting question
Agatha Macbeth: Are we going somewhere?
ShinjuJin Resident looks to Storm
Qt Core: going or take "here"
CuriousBeing Resident: probably good to ask what the group wants to do in SL, who the group is and how much land we would need for our purposes?

Storm Nordwind: Smaller plots of land will support only small builds, counting prims
Storm Nordwind: We survive here because of the sparsity
Storm Nordwind: So we can redistribite spare prims from land we don't build on to land we do
Storm Nordwind: But if you pare down, you don't have that luxury. All your builds must be small.
Storm Nordwind: It doesn't matter if you save them or not.
Storm Nordwind: In effect, you must rebuild.

--BELL--

ShinjuJin Resident: true, and also smaller space means fewer people could attend a performance, say, anyway
CuriousBeing Resident: one thing I noticed as I was paring down my land, I could rebuild with few prims and with a better design and use of textures
ShinjuJin Resident: what are the basics that we would use regularly, do you think?
ShinjuJin Resident: a meeting place that accommodates as many as this spot does, would also work for guardian sessions
ShinjuJin Resident: a retreat kind of place could be what individual houses/plots were

Storm Nordwind: perhaps it would be useful to consider first what added value to discussions and meetings that SL brings. The group could continue in several other forms without SL. If there is added value with SL, what is it worth to each individual?

ShinjuJin Resident: probably no railroad :( and ouch, there was a pang when Adams wrote about the museum
ShinjuJin Resident: hmm
ShinjuJin Resident: I've just started to like SL again after a period of indifference :)

CuriousBeing Resident: what other ways could the group meet other than in sl? other virtual worlds?
Qt Core: has live interaction a value, that is communicatin in real time and not just by mail/mailing lists ?
ShinjuJin Resident: I'd be game to try
Storm Nordwind: Email is one way of meeting. Skype is another. Chat rooms. Basically non-virtual worlds.
Bruce Mowbray: :(
CuriousBeing Resident: skype is hard with so many
Qt Core: yes, but there is difference between chatrooms and mailing lists
Bruce Mowbray ponders what Original Face will have to do....
ShinjuJin Resident: email is fine for supplement but lacks something

Storm Nordwind: To have some kind of virtual presence costs money if you also want some privacy and reliability of availability of meeting place.
ShinjuJin Resident: so should we start by seeing how short we would fall if people decided to begin donations again?
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Frun.
ShinjuJin Resident: Hi Frun :)
CuriousBeing Resident: hi Frun
Falze1 Resident: Hi, nice big crowd today
Falze1 Resident: nobody yesterday
CuriousBeing Resident: discussing the future :)
ShinjuJin Resident: we've been talking about how and whether to pare down land here at PaB
ShinjuJin Resident: we have a few months to figure it out, but Storm's main question is one everyone can answer for themselves perhaps...
ShinjuJin Resident: [13:19] Storm Nordwind: perhaps it would be useful to consider first what added value to discussions and meetings that SL brings. The group could continue in several other forms without SL. If there is added value with SL, what is it worth to each individual?

ShinjuJin Resident: if not SL, another virtual world would be my first choice, given the options of email/skype/etc
CuriousBeing Resident: what about meeting in other places? there is so much already built in sl that nobody uses?
ShinjuJin Resident: that might work also
CuriousBeing Resident: and that would be no cost
Storm Nordwind: yes that's a possibility: a nomadic existence.
ShinjuJin Resident: I wondered about asking Mira and Perfect Paradise, although they have their own way of doing things
CuriousBeing Resident: yes nomadic :)
ShinjuJin Resident: and there is a place called Nirvana Island
Storm Nordwind: No cost. But no reliability. No security. No privacy.
ShinjuJin Resident: we'd really be throwing ourselves out there, but might be fun
CuriousBeing Resident: what kind of security would we need?
Storm Nordwind: Security in the knowledge of predictability of availability.
CuriousBeing Resident: well we would have to become flexible .... tp around if we were thrown out :)
ShinjuJin Resident: I wonder if we should ask Sun. She knows so many people in SL and might know of a potential place that would be a good fit
ShinjuJin Resident: band on the run...
ShinjuJin Resident: could use backpacks
CuriousBeing Resident: we may even pick up a few other interesting folks
ShinjuJin Resident: makes me think of the bus some talked about some time, hah

CuriousBeing Resident: LEA does some nice art builds ... I never see anyone there
ShinjuJin Resident: might work for a while
CuriousBeing Resident: or for even once and a while
ShinjuJin Resident: but I wonder if without a place to call our own, we would be pab
CuriousBeing Resident: so maybe we have a small home and travel occasionally?
Catrinamonblue Resident: by any other name....

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
CuriousBeing Resident: how much property would we need to keep this pavilion here? Its nice to take advantage of the empty land next to us?
Qt Core: i surely forgot this, but beside the SL issue is the pab wiki safe ? are we at risk of losing the site/hosting/domani name too ?
CuriousBeing Resident: good question Qt
ShinjuJin Resident: the wiki has a cost, but I think the cost Pema wrote is just SL land
ShinjuJin Resident: tier
CuriousBeing Resident: worth confirming though
ShinjuJin Resident: yes

ElanVitalo Resident: Maybe we could all move into one "Home" --- a big one, I'd hope -- on Bieup -- with large rooms in it for various events. A sort of condo for pabbers.
ShinjuJin Resident: I like that notion... sort of what I was thinking with keeping a retreat house
ElanVitalo Resident: (just a thought).
CuriousBeing Resident: build up not out :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: likes that too :)
Qt Core: there is the prim issue
ShinjuJin Resident nods
ElanVitalo Resident listens.
Falze1 Resident: a big house with a village square, molecule, kira, town hall, etc?
CuriousBeing Resident: but maybe the upstairs area could be changed depending on what we need?
ShinjuJin Resident: we're going to have to part with some wonderful spaces :( But yes, maybe more flexible

ShinjuJin Resident: we should hurry and use everything before July 1, haha
Falze1 Resident: :)

Storm Nordwind: if people are interested in keeping an SL presence, I suggest first calculating what could be reliably afforded. Then work out the land area implied by that. that implies the prims available. And rebuild according to desired function and extant constraints.
Agatha Macbeth: Makes sense
ShinjuJin Resident: So we could send a follow up email with that question
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
ShinjuJin Resident: and also ask in guardian meetings, to see what the group wishes really are
Qt Core: with a link to the log if not the log itself of this session
ElanVitalo Resident: Won't we be giving up a whole lot of prims on this sim? -- and could some of that be consolidated into a single meeting place/home/theater/museum/etc?
ShinjuJin Resident nods
Storm Nordwind: The main point, I suspect, is "reliable". Well meaning wishes sadly are not enough.
Falze1 Resident: some people have land and builds in other places in SL. Maybe they would move here?
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Storm, that's a big question, for how long are we willing to keep pab going in this way?
ShinjuJin Resident: That's a good idea Frun, but another part of that equation would be someone to manage that ... and so few of us are in SL much these days

ShinjuJin Resident: is the previous donation mechanism still workable?
Storm Nordwind: i don't think so.
ShinjuJin Resident: from Piet's message: "In the mean time, to keep Pab and related activities going, Maxine and I have been paying the tier for our land out of our own pockets, at $195 per month. We didn't mind doing that for a while, but by now continuing payments of $2,340 per year is becoming a little too much for us, especially since we have so little time to partake in PaB activities, or other SL activities for that matter, ourselves."
CuriousBeing Resident: this is not non-profit anymore
ShinjuJin Resident: right
ShinjuJin Resident: donations wouldn't be tax deductable anymore

ShinjuJin Resident: what would be needed would be roughly 20 people giving 10 dollars a month, or some variation of that
ShinjuJin Resident: to keep what is here
CuriousBeing Resident: I personally don't think we need so much land, what does everyone else think?
Agatha Macbeth: Agreed
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Qt Core: or less if we decide we don't need/can't afford that
CuriousBeing Resident: even 1/2 a sim is quite a lot
ShinjuJin Resident: agree too :) with a bit of a sting
Agatha Macbeth: The café is never used now
CuriousBeing Resident: I build a lot with about a 1/4 sim
ShinjuJin Resident: we are a smaller group, so it may even make way for greater intimacy.. the feeling that if one shows up, someone might be around
ElanVitalo Resident: I agree: consolidate the land to perhaps 1/3 or 1/4 (give up guardians' homes, etc.) , assess group interest, calculate monthly subscription cost per capita....
ElanVitalo Resident: LOTS of places seem never to be used: 5 Bells, Cafe, Theatre, Dome.
Storm Nordwind: I suspect 1/16th of a sim is sufficient. That's 64m x 64m. It would cost 5 people $5 each a month, or $60 a year each, and one would have to be a premium member paying an additional $72 a year.
CuriousBeing Resident: agree that
ShinjuJin Resident: any way around that premium member thing?
Storm Nordwind: Nope

--BELL--

CuriousBeing Resident: at least one person has to be a premium member ... the others can be in the group that owns the land?
ShinjuJin Resident: ooooh okay, I read that wrong at first
ShinjuJin Resident: was about to suggest I send my $60 or $120 to a premium member instead :P
ShinjuJin Resident has to be very thrifty these days

ShinjuJin Resident: wb Qt
Agatha Macbeth: Wb Qt
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
Qt Core: ty
ShinjuJin Resident: but you used a capital W
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Pedant ♥
ShinjuJin Resident giggles
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Agatha Macbeth: That's Wol's job remember

ShinjuJin Resident: I'm trying to envision 1/16 of a sim
Qt Core: i'm not asking for an answer, but maybe one of the pabbers is already a premium member willingly to do the bankler ?
Bruce Mowbray: I'm pretty sure that Darren Ishtar is a p.m.
Qt Core: (if needed)
Bruce Mowbray: (he also has quite a nice beach property in SL.)
Agatha Macbeth: What about Mugunghwa?
Agatha Macbeth: Erk
ShinjuJin Resident hasn't heard anyone mention mugunghwa in a long time
Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear.
Storm Nordwind: There is 1/16th of a sim :)
ShinjuJin Resident: hahahahahha
Agatha Macbeth: Ah

ShinjuJin Resident: we're in a giant stick of butter
CuriousBeing Resident: how many prims for that?
Catrinamonblue Resident: spacious :)
Bruce Mowbray: Cool! THANKS, Storm.
ShinjuJin Resident snaps photos
Storm Nordwind: 15000/16 prims
Qt Core: even built vertically it seems quite little
Storm Nordwind: 937 prims
CuriousBeing Resident: can do a lot with 937
CuriousBeing Resident: how many prims is the pavilion?
Bruce Mowbray: a dumb question: When avis come and go, does that add or subtract from the prim count -- or prims figured just on what is actually built on the land?

Storm Nordwind: For comparison: the museum is on 6288 sqm of land (as against 4096 in 1/16th). It uses over 2050 prims
CuriousBeing Resident: 1/8 would give us double
ShinjuJin Resident: yes
Storm Nordwind: The Five Bells uses less than 500
Falze1 Resident: so, 1/8 would be plenty of room, but not enough for the musium
ShinjuJin Resident: which always surprises me because it is so lush in there (Five Bells)
ShinjuJin Resident: :) might be a nice one to keep.... small enough and cozy as part of retreat
Bruce Mowbray: So, the numbers of avis and whatever they might be wearing would not add to the prim count in the space alloted to PaB?
ShinjuJin Resident nods Frun
CuriousBeing Resident: right Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: kk, thanks.
ShinjuJin Resident: really? but it matters when we have performances doesn't it?
Agatha Macbeth: What you're wearing only affects how fast the sim is usually
ShinjuJin Resident: ah
Agatha Macbeth: How many scripts basically
Falze1 Resident: prim games can be played with de-rezing things temporarily to rez other builds
ShinjuJin Resident: makes sense
ShinjuJin Resident: and when no art show going on, we don't need to keep things up I guess
Agatha Macbeth: I'm currently at 384 which ain't bad ;)
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
Falze1 Resident: retreat could on the ground until needed
Bruce Mowbray: I thought Rutgers UNiversity had a stake in the museum. Isn't it used with some of their class projects?
ShinjuJin Resident: I think Adams was invested in that sense before, but not Rutgers
Bruce Mowbray: kk.

ShinjuJin Resident remembers when the first sacred art museum was being put together
Agatha Macbeth: I remember it being built!
ShinjuJin Resident: I was so new to SL and didn't realize I was hearing people from upstairs (hearing = reading)

--BELL--

ShinjuJin Resident: Hi San
Falze1 Resident: is the area of musium to dome 1 sim ?
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi San :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, San.
Falze1 Resident: hi San
Santoshima Resident: hello :)
Agatha Macbeth: Sanji :)
CuriousBeing Resident: hi San
Agatha Macbeth pokes San's feet
Santoshima Resident: oh!
Santoshima Resident: hi!
ShinjuJin Resident: Storm, could you write a coherent email to the group? :)
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe with a recipe thrown in? :p
ShinjuJin Resident: I'll send an email for a guardian session this weekend since I wouldn't be able to do it next weekend, or we could give two weeks for people to consider
ShinjuJin Resident smiles
Storm Nordwind: Coherency is not always my strong suit. ;-)
ShinjuJin Resident: (it is) as compared with me :)
ShinjuJin Resident: Or, Curious?
ShinjuJin Resident: I am thinking that someone savvy with the measurements would be best

CuriousBeing Resident: I think we also should decide what our purpose is or will be?
CuriousBeing Resident: and then maybe how much land we need?
ShinjuJin Resident: "lets... lets stay together... loving you whether..."
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Storm Nordwind: And who will own it
Agatha Macbeth: Reverend Al!
Agatha Macbeth: Basically all we need is a meeting place I think
CuriousBeing Resident: and how big does that have to be?
CuriousBeing Resident: suppose we just had the pavilion?
CuriousBeing Resident: is that enough?
Agatha Macbeth: Don't see why not
ShinjuJin Resident likes the idea of having a few little changes of view , even if simple
Catrinamonblue Resident: remembers Eliza putting up scenes around the pavilion
ShinjuJin Resident: :)
CuriousBeing Resident: a small "home" space that has some history and tradition?
ShinjuJin Resident nods
ShinjuJin Resident: meeting place as the heart
Agatha Macbeth: Where the home is
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
CuriousBeing Resident: most of the time we're right here :)
Agatha Macbeth: True
ShinjuJin Resident nods
ShinjuJin Resident: except for a few who have been very invested in their spaces....
Bruce Mowbray: Can a "home" be had (owned) by several avis, or would it have to be a "last location" (when we come in-world)?
ShinjuJin Resident: my first thought would be pavilion, one retreat space instead of individual houses in the sky sky space if we could do it , and a few small spots a little distanced from pavilion
ShinjuJin Resident: but then the question of the art museum to me is unanswered without adams input
Agatha Macbeth: Could ask on Sunday
ShinjuJin Resident: thanks
ShinjuJin Resident: we would still have permissions I think Bruce, if set that way
Bruce Mowbray: hhmmmmm, kk.
Bruce Mowbray: ty.

CuriousBeing Resident: must get going ... interesting to think about ... nice to have the time to discuss ... thanks all :)
Agatha Macbeth: Tc SB
ShinjuJin Resident: ntsy Curious, thanks
Santoshima Resident: bye
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Curious
Bruce Mowbray: So, a guardian meeting for Saturday, Shin?
Agatha Macbeth: CB*
Agatha Macbeth: Even
CuriousBeing Resident: bye all
ShinjuJin Resident: yes, I'll send that email, but the other I don't feel confident to give clear details about
Storm Nordwind: if there's anything missing, I can maybe add them or clarify in a reply.
ShinjuJin Resident: OK, that works
ShinjuJin Resident: thanks
Bruce Mowbray: :)
ShinjuJin Resident: I have to get going too.... life sweeping in
ShinjuJin Resident: I'll try to send the email soon!
Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers, me too.
Storm Nordwind: Like a tide.

--BELL--

ShinjuJin Resident: :))
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, Sinju.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Shinju*
Santoshima Resident: ty for doing that
Agatha Macbeth: New broom
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, everyone.
Qt Core: yes, time to go for me too, bye all
ShinjuJin Resident waves warmly
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye every one :)
Santoshima Resident: bye all
Falze1 Resident: bye bye
Agatha Macbeth waves
Agatha Macbeth: Seems that's it then...
Santoshima Resident: seems so
Santoshima Resident: bye
Agatha Macbeth: Tc San
Agatha Macbeth: Paint well
Santoshima Resident: you too agatha