2015.02.18 01:00 - Trust

The Guardian for this meeting was No Self. The comments are by No Self.

Avaline DeCuir smiles
Darren Islar: good morning sweet
Avaline DeCuir: Good morning my love
Darren Islar: eats his manderin
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Darren Islar: what was it last time ... guilt?
Avaline DeCuir: regret
Darren Islar: right

Darren Islar: so what are we going to do today?
Avaline DeCuir: how about trust?
Darren Islar: yeah, good one
Darren Islar: trust in other people, in ourselves
Darren Islar: are they related?
Avaline DeCuir: in both .. I think they can be related but aren't necessarily so
Darren Islar: I wonder if one is a reflection of the other, and that there is maybe only 'one' trust
Darren Islar: unless you meet someone you don't trust with your wallet :)
Avaline DeCuir: I don't think so .. it depends if we are talking about automatic distrust ... or learned distrust

Avaline DeCuir: I think that if we automatically distrust someone .. perhaps because they remind of of someone else .. or because of their gender/racial group etc ... then we might be reflecting a distrust in ourselves .. not always .. but often
Darren Islar: yes
Avaline DeCuir: However, if we trust someone and then they do something to break that trust .. then it is not in us .. but something the other has done
Avaline DeCuir: although I suppose it all depends on how serious the breach is ...
Avaline DeCuir: after all if someone I trusted did something that I didn't like .. but they didnt know I didnt like it ... and it was not something that would normally be associated with a breech of trust ... then perhaps the loss of trust has come from within me
Darren Islar: yes
Avaline DeCuir: Perhaps I would also react more strongly to someone breaking a trust if it was the same sort of breech that I had experienced before and had been hurt deeply by
Darren Islar: even when somebody breaks your trust in a serious way, you can even wonder from who it comes ... it is true though that if you have made a connection and the other one ignores it, it's obvious that person is in the wrong

--BELL--

Darren Islar: yes it builds up
Darren Islar: coffee
Avaline DeCuir: ok
Avaline DeCuir: It is a hard topic to discuss really .. I am someone who trusts easily ... and it usually takes a lot to break my trust ... although I am starting to learn to be a little more suspicious of people and their motivations ... but I guess I try to look at the best side of everyone ... and allow that to remain until they break the trust ... and usually it has to be a serious breech for me to allow it to affect the way I see them
Avaline DeCuir: as fopr trusting myself .. that is a different matter ... as we get older .. or sick ... our body can fail us .. and that breaks our trust in ourselves ... all of a sudden we can't trust it to do the simple, basic things we once took for granted

Avaline DeCuir: I wonder about people who have a serious mental illness ... how they deal with the issue of self trust .. especially since often they can't even trust what their own mind is telling them
Darren Islar: I know a few of them, they set up all sorts of systems to get their control back, normally hurting others with it
Avaline DeCuir: I remember watching the movie A Beautiful Mind ... about a professor who had schizophrenia ... he had a very close friend who he trusted implicitly ... unfortunately that friend was an hallucination
Darren Islar: but it's a necessity for them ... that guy I was telling about who unblocked me on FB, that's such a person
Darren Islar: and you can't reason with them, it's too dangerous for them to let go
Avaline DeCuir: and he ended up doing things that the imaginary person told him .. because he trusted the person so much
Darren Islar: right

Avaline DeCuir: so that leads me to wonder .. is this all an illusion? Can we trust anything about our world and our lives?
Darren Islar: basically you can't trust people like that, since they have literally no ground to stand on, they are scattered all over the place ... since they absolutely don't trust themselves, we can't trust them either
Darren Islar: I think it's the way we respond to it, when we can recognize what it is in the other one why he breaks our trust, I think it becomes easier .. I mean, really seeing it
Avaline DeCuir: what about strangers who break our trust?
Avaline DeCuir: like people who try and get money out of us on false pretenses
Darren Islar: yeah, that's the wallet thing, but you can wonder if they break your trust, well maybe they do ... trust in humanity, society, something like that
Avaline DeCuir: yes .. or trust that people are honest when they try to sell you something
Darren Islar: especially when they give you the feeling they need help. You try to help them and it all turns out to be a scheme
Avaline DeCuir: yes that is one of the worst breeches of trust I think
Avaline DeCuir: well perhaps not .. but I tend to feel more violated by it than other things

Avaline DeCuir: I always find that it hurts when someone breaks my trust
Avaline DeCuir: I guess I am always surprised to find that people are dishonest
Darren Islar: I think those are cases we should be and try to come up with strategies so you can help the ones you really need to and can see through scams
Darren Islar: I have actually no idea how people can tell blatant lies
Avaline DeCuir: neither do I

--BELL--

Avaline DeCuir: mind you I also dislike it when people dont trust me ... especially when I have never given them reason to not trust me
Avaline DeCuir: I think that is partly because of my childhood
Avaline DeCuir: My Mum always believed that I was up to no good .. had bad plans ... was lying about everything ...
Darren Islar: in that case it might be about the distrust of people about themselves
Darren Islar: yes, that hurts
Avaline DeCuir: half the time I would lie to her because she didnt believe the truth so I would lie and tell her what she wanted to hear ... because she was never going to believe the trith
Avaline DeCuir: she always has said to me that she had to keep one step ahead of me and she always knew what I was thinking ... but actually she had no idea
Avaline DeCuir: I can remember just giving up and letting her think what she liked because she was so closed minded
Darren Islar: I think that gives a really good virtuous ground to become manipulative
Darren Islar: I'm sorry that happened

Avaline DeCuir: even now .. she still says she knew exactly what I was thinking .. and always mistrusts me ... I just ignore it as much as I can
Avaline DeCuir: she still has no idea what I think or why
Avaline DeCuir: but she thinks she does
Darren Islar: wow, that's not really a way to learn to trust people anyways
Avaline DeCuir: given the breeches of trust in my life .. I dont even know why I still trust everyone so deeply
Avaline DeCuir: I guess it is just a strong part of my nature
Darren Islar: true, but I also notice the deep distrust in you
Avaline DeCuir: I think that is linked to fear
Darren Islar: yes, but distrusting someone is part of it, not in your mind, but in your guts
Avaline DeCuir: is it? I am not sure[

[a few lines edited out because the dialog seemed to suggest that as appropriate]

Avaline DeCuir: I have lost so much money in my life by trusting people ... believing what they tell me .. then finding out it was all a con
Darren Islar: do you?
Avaline DeCuir: but .. somehow I still believe the next person
Darren Islar: send them to me, I'm the opposite :)
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Avaline DeCuir: I am learning to leave time between hearing about a plan and doing something
Avaline DeCuir: particularly leaving time before I part with money
Darren Islar: nobody ever conned me over money, but maybe in some cases I should have trust the person
Darren Islar: it's not that I haven't leant money to people, but only the ones I trues
Darren Islar: trust
Darren Islar: yes
Avaline DeCuir: I am not talking about lending money .. investing money mainly
Darren Islar: since you're smart enough to discover the holes in the plan

--BELL--

Darren Islar: yes well, I am very very vigilant with investments
Avaline DeCuir: Good you can manage all our investments then :)
Darren Islar: oi
Darren Islar: starts sweating
Avaline DeCuir: The last investment I lost money on I was very careful .. checked with the stock exchanges .. and securities commissions .. everything was properly registered .. good history .. nothing to be suspicious about ... then about 8 weeks after I invested the whole organisation collapsed .. the company directors disappeared with all the money .. and left me and many others with nothing ... even big money invesotrs
Avaline DeCuir: The FBI is investigating it
Avaline DeCuir: fortunately I didnt lose anywhere near as much as some did .. Stephen lost a huge amount
Avaline DeCuir: but .. even if you check credentials .. you can stil be burned
Darren Islar: yes I know, it's a horrific world
Darren Islar: I actually meant with being very very vigilant is that I don't invest
Avaline DeCuir: yes . I dont understand it .. I don't understand the need to trample and damage people in order to make lots of money
Darren Islar: me neither
Darren Islar: but they do

Avaline DeCuir: why can't people be content with enough? why do they need so much they could never spend it in ten lifetimes?
Darren Islar: they don't trust themselves, so they don't trust live as well
Darren Islar: ?
Avaline DeCuir: it could be
Darren Islar: or trust any other person
Avaline DeCuir: perhaps they don't trust that enough wil be enough
Avaline DeCuir: they want to hold on to more .. just in case
Darren Islar: imagine someone who is rich who needs even more money, in what kind of mindset is that person living in?
Avaline DeCuir: well I suppose they are living in fear
Avaline DeCuir: otherwise .. why would they feel the need for more and more?
Darren Islar: There is a lot of suffering going on there though the person might not see it
Darren Islar: teh one and only answer is power, and yes that has to do with fear
Avaline DeCuir: but I dont understand why people need power either
Darren Islar: because they need the control
Avaline DeCuir: if they would relax and learn to co operate .. then no one would need power
Darren Islar: and in that world you can't trust anyone
Avaline DeCuir: but it feels wrong
Darren Islar: it is wrong
Avaline DeCuir: if everyone had enough .. and no one had more than enough .. there would be no poverty ... not power structures
Avaline DeCuir: nor *
Darren Islar: I know
Avaline DeCuir: we are all the same .. we all have a human body .. and a soul ... I simply don't understand why people feel the need to be different .. to have more .. be better ... have power ... control
Darren Islar: the future will give them big problems though, new techniques will decentralize resources and take away a lot of power with big companies
Darren Islar: I guess it's better not to understand
Avaline DeCuir: it already is .. that is why they are panicking and trying to get more money
Darren Islar: yes
Avaline DeCuir: money can't buy you freedom or love
Avaline DeCuir: The more money you have the less freedom you seem to have

--BELL--

Darren Islar: no
Darren Islar: shall we go
Avaline DeCuir: yes