2009.02.02 13:00 - Secular versus religious

Wol Euler took the log for this session, filling in for the absent Stim Morane. This was another long and fiery session, lasting an hour and three quarters.

 

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol:)

Wol Euler: hello scath, samuel

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Samuel

Samuel Okelly: 

Samuel Okelly: ( @ @ ) 

Samuel Okelly: ...o00o.(_).o00o...

Samuel Okelly: (( HELLO EVERY1! ! ! ! ))

Samuel Okelly: 

Scathach Rhiadra: so, how is everyone today?

Samuel Okelly: not bad thanks scat :) and you?

Wol Euler: well, much improved on the weekend, thanks. And you?

Scathach Rhiadra: fine, tired

Wol Euler: the exhibition?

Scathach Rhiadra: oh, I still have some work to do for Adams

Samuel Okelly: exhibition?

Scathach Rhiadra: an exhibition of Sacred Art, in the Hall of Appearances in Rieul(?)

Samuel Okelly: sounds interesting

Scathach Rhiadra: Starting on Thurs

Samuel Okelly: is the art work commisioned ?

Scathach Rhiadra: sorry, it is also Sacred Structures, in virtual worlds

Wol Euler: hello fefonz

Wol Euler: your wathc announced your arrival

Samuel Okelly: hey fef

Scathach Rhiadra: I think it is looking at what purpose they serve, how like their RL counterparts they are, etc.

Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol, Scath, Sam :)

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz

Fefonz Quan: wathc?

Wol Euler: *watch

Wol Euler: [13:10] Play as being Watch for mens will ring next in 4 minutes 32 seconds.

Scathach Rhiadra: here is a link to the website http://sacredartexhibition.wordpress.com/

Wol Euler: ah! ty

Fefonz Quan: Ah, nice, i didn't know it sent messages ahead, it is an imprtant knowledge when you spy silently after someone in a dark ally...

Wol Euler: heheheheh

Samuel Okelly: tx scat

Wol Euler: you'll be wrapping your fist around it, hissing "sshhhhh"

Fefonz Quan: yep... thanks for the site scath, saved it for later examination

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Wol Euler: I'm glad you included the Mosque at Cordoba, that is a magnificent piece of art/architeture, whether or not it it currently a place of prayer

Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I have seen it on television, it is magnificent:)

Wol Euler: next time you're in spain, you must see it. I don't think that TV would let you appreciate the enormous yet delicate scale of it

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Scathach Rhiadra: like the Taj Mahal, so much better to see than pictures or TV

Wol Euler: well, I have not (yet) seen that, so we're even there :)

Fefonz Quan agrees about the Taj

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Wol Euler: hello tarmel

Samuel Okelly: hello tam

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel:)

Fefonz Quan: Hey Tarmel :)

Tarmel Udimo: hello scath, fefonz, sam and wol

Tarmel Udimo: hey sam you seem very far away

Wol Euler: samuel always sits opposite the group, it's one of his habits :)

Wol Euler: stim does that too

Samuel Okelly: i hadnt noticed ;)

Fefonz Quan: "So i can see you well" :)

Wol Euler: and isen

Tarmel Udimo: where is stim? haven't seen him lately

Scathach Rhiadra: this is his session:)

Tarmel Udimo: oh locked out?

Wol Euler: oh!

Scathach Rhiadra: could be

Wol Euler: did he ask for a replacement? I didn'T see a mail message

Scathach Rhiadra: no, I don't think so

Wol Euler: I hope he's OK

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Fefonz Quan: well, missing avatars might be a real mystery plot

Wol Euler: hello aurora

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Aurora

Samuel Okelly: hello Aurora :)

Tarmel Udimo: I miss the wednesday sessions with himself and pema

Wol Euler: yes, those were good

Tarmel Udimo: hi aurora

Aurora Kitaj: Hi there everyone ;)

Fefonz Quan: Hey Aurora, beautiful red colors you got there :)

Aurora Kitaj: Thanks Fefonz

Wol Euler waits for rezzing

Aurora Kitaj: apparently, it's a princess's robes from the Tang dynasty ;)

Scathach Rhiadra: ah, one of Ryusho's creations?

Fefonz Quan: yeah, it reminded me of the princess in "crouching tiger hidden dragon"

Tarmel Udimo: wonderful movie

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Fefonz Quan: indeed

Tarmel Udimo: would love to be that disciplined...

Tarmel Udimo: mind you all you have to do is log into sl and fly... :-)

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Wol Euler smiles

Aurora Kitaj: never seen it, but outfit came from Fantasy dynasty ...legends of china

Scathach Rhiadra: ah, yes that is Ryusho, though the sim is no more:(

Aurora Kitaj: Only brought it this afternoon ;)

Scathach Rhiadra: really, I tried to go there at the weekend, and was told it no longer existed

Fefonz Quan: in my language they say "get new" on such a thing, i wouldn't know the english phrasing

Fefonz Quan: (to Aurora)

Scathach Rhiadra: ty Aurora:)

Tarmel Udimo: has anyone been going to the theatre sessions in the cafe?

Wol Euler shakes her head

Aurora Kitaj: do you mean that this means that people should not look backwards wearing antique clothes or ideas?

Scathach Rhiadra: no, I dropped in last week, but was very late, so didn't join them

Aurora Kitaj: Yes, I have been to one session but couldn't make last week'a

Samuel Okelly: no, i havent.. it seems like work-in-progress at the moment

Aurora Kitaj: week's

Fefonz Quan: no, it means that it is new for you, Aurora

Tarmel Udimo: I think anyone can join?

Aurora Kitaj: ok

Aurora Kitaj: i understand Fefonz

Tarmel Udimo: I didn't because it was about science but could be fun

Tarmel Udimo: the theatre session I mean

Wol Euler smiles. I bet some didn't go because it was about theatre :)

Fefonz Quan: more like "enjoy your new thing/appearance/property"

Scathach Rhiadra nods at Wol:)

Aurora Kitaj: thank you Fefonz ;)

Scathach Rhiadra: mention the word 'acting'...

Tarmel Udimo: perphaps wol, not that I'm not into sceince :-) but felt like it may be over my head...

Fefonz Quan: well, personally i would (and had) go to a theatre workshop in RL

Tarmel Udimo: yes?

Aurora Kitaj: I attended the first sesssion out of curiosity and it was interesting

Wol Euler: mm?

Tarmel Udimo: ok, can you say more?

Scathach Rhiadra: yes, what I heard last week was interesting

Aurora Kitaj: well for a start, I tried to see whether anyone wouldl go with an idea that would appeal to my son...

Aurora Kitaj: namely something... anything relating to the periodic table

Aurora Kitaj: and would you know it.. someone else thought that a play aobut the periodic table would be cool

Aurora Kitaj: some of the concepts were over my head, but the way people spoke about writing a play, it even made me want to have a bash ;)

Wol Euler smiles

Tarmel Udimo: yikes guess i was right... not sure how creative I could be about chemistry (lack of knowledge for one)

Aurora Kitaj: I like it when you feel like you can try anything, just to see what it's like

Aurora Kitaj: and that you shouldn't feel embarassed if you've never done it before

Aurora Kitaj: that's how life should be

Tarmel Udimo: the only tip about writing you need to know is - wait for it - keep writing :-)

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Fefonz Quan: just like being, isn't it?

Wol Euler: hello luna, come and join us.

Tarmel Udimo: good on you fonz

Tarmel Udimo: bring us back into the Pab fold

Fefonz Quan: infact many of the materials in the periodic table has very "human" characters

Tarmel Udimo: yes?

Samuel Okelly: hello luna :)

Luna Dover: hello

Fefonz Quan: theones that don't connect to no one, the ones that connect rapidly to anyone, the ones that are well connected to themselves :)

Tarmel Udimo: sounds like major drama

Fefonz Quan: the ones that can't tolerate being alone

Tarmel Udimo: I think you better attend the workshop fefonz

Fefonz Quan: well, chemical reactions are dramatic, aren't they :)

Scathach Rhiadra: yes, this sounds like a play to me:)

Aurora Kitaj: Hi Luna

Tarmel Udimo: hummm going on all the time inside us

Tarmel Udimo: love = chemical reaction

Fefonz Quan remember the explosions in the experiment he did as a child...

Samuel Okelly: the universe is never still i suppose

Wol Euler: Luna, I'll give you an introduciton to the group in IM

Fefonz Quan: right tarmel

Fefonz Quan: and more, maybe?

Luna Dover: ok

Fefonz Quan: science would argue traditionly that our conciousness is chemical reaction

Samuel Okelly: the chemical process of "love" is merely the biological process... it is our human understanding that assigns it it's relevance and significance surely

Tarmel Udimo: couldn't have said it better samuel

Fefonz Quan: is "human understanding" less chemical?

Samuel Okelly: we are both biological and spiritual beings

Aurora Kitaj: I'm still stumbling over understanding what love is, so this is a bit over my head

Samuel Okelly: our biology is the canvas

Samuel Okelly: our spirit is the picture

Aurora Kitaj: isn't love whatever someone want's it be?

Fefonz Quan: i'm with aurora, putting the undesttanding above love sounds weird to me

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Samuel Okelly: it is not uncommon for many ppl to miss the beauty of the painting when they busy themselves decribing and explaining the canvas

Aurora Kitaj: it's sometimes weilded like a weapon... or sometimes creates a power relationship

Tarmel Udimo: unless we do, as humans we can convince ourselves its okay to do all manner of things

Aurora Kitaj: Hi Tenk, nice to see you ;))

Tarmel Udimo: hi tenk

Fefonz Quan: hi Tenk

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tenk

Tenk Kidd: Hello all :)

Wol Euler: hello tenk

Samuel Okelly: hi tenk

Luna Dover: the issue with love is frequently the subject not the action

Aurora Kitaj: we're talking about love, right now and drama ;)

Fefonz Quan: iwould argue the simple separation between tpirit and biology canvas-painting like

Samuel Okelly: wouldnt that depend on your perspective luna?

Tarmel Udimo: love the biggest theme in drama - the top number one spot

Aurora Kitaj: emotive love

Samuel Okelly: i dont propose the seperation of biology and spirit.. rather i see them both as one whole

Luna Dover: well love can be self-focused, loving someone because of what they do for you or make you feel and it can also be other focused, a self sacrificial love for example

Tenk Kidd: I often wonder about love - is what we feel the same as animals - like birds - that pair for life?

Tarmel Udimo: yes, of course th biggest love is your relationship to self to being

Tarmel Udimo: our parents paired for life

Fefonz Quan: in some people it's the lesser love of all, the one to self

Samuel Okelly: i dont think one person CAN love themself

Aurora Kitaj: or at least for somepeople

Wol Euler: why, samuel?

Aurora Kitaj: thank you for that refreshingly honest perspective samuel

Samuel Okelly: it is my understanding that love is an expression of something ... a relationship....

Aurora Kitaj: yes, but according to most people, they SHOULD

Luna Dover: For example the one sin of Lucifer was pride and that is a perfect example of self love and nearly every ill in the world can be rooted down to someone being too self-focused

Samuel Okelly: whilst anybody can be self-obsessed i dont recognise this as "love"

Aurora Kitaj: well that flies in the face of a lot of philosophies, that I've been hearing about

Fefonz Quan: well, obsession for other should not be considered love, though so commonly found

Aurora Kitaj: do you mean that we shouldn't or cannot love another person Fonz?

Fefonz Quan: and it is hard to define, lovs vs, obsession/ownership etc.

Fefonz Quan: not at all, Aurora

Tarmel Udimo: unless one understands that love of self is love of the spirit/counciousness/unit that resides within all of us, which is in fact the true us

Samuel Okelly: obssession is obssession..., pride is just that "pride" but though they may be confused with agape styled love 9as opposed to eros they represent something significantly different

Fefonz Quan: i mean that when love becomes (some times starts) with obsesion, it is not true love

Aurora Kitaj: yes, but what about the non judgemental love of your own chldren?

Fefonz Quan: well, i don't see obssession there

Tenk Kidd: I remember reading somewhere that 'Love' translates well across all languages, whereas 'humour' for example, does not. Whatever love is, it is a pretty fundamental emotion - perhaps so much so it eludes rational analysis.

Aurora Kitaj: that's not posession, or owership, it's nurturing

Luna Dover: it is hard to see love and desire separate since they are intertwined but it is the color of the threads that makes the pattern right or wrong. Love is desire but what type of desire makes it good or not good

Fefonz Quan: Luna, it is not so hard, if you think of your children

Fefonz Quan: and Aurora, did i say something that imply love cannot exist?

Luna Dover: that is a self-sacrificial love when it comes to children, but how many parents turn their children into an ego supporting possession?

Aurora Kitaj: I've very good at misunderstanding ppl Fonz

Fefonz Quan: welcome to the club :)

Wol Euler smiles. You aren't alone, Aurora.

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Samuel Okelly: sadly it is not uncommon to see ppl "objectify" other ppl including spouses, chiuldren, friends etc

Tenk Kidd: I find the plants that don't talk back are easier to get on with...

Aurora Kitaj: I don't know, how many parent's do turn their children into ego supporting possessions?

Aurora Kitaj: in GB they've just published a report on child rearing

Fefonz Quan: many, i guess

Samuel Okelly: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukp...m3TMXrrqfFxotw

Aurora Kitaj: it says that for decades adult have been putting themselves first

Aurora Kitaj: and not their children and it has led to a generation of stressed out depressed kids ;(

Fefonz Quan: but tha's another example that can help us define between love - that doesn't need approval or something else in return - and all kinds of ago-driven obssesions, control games etc.

Aurora Kitaj: things like women going out to work, constant advertising aimed at children

Aurora Kitaj: etc etc

Aurora Kitaj: consumerism

Wol Euler: I'll certainly join you in damning consumerism and advertising, Aurora

Aurora Kitaj: sorry, don't know what happened there!

Luna Dover: but it looked nice:)

Wol Euler: :)

Tarmel Udimo: stranyes

Fefonz Quan: looked like an emotional reaction :)

Tarmel Udimo: grins

Fefonz Quan: in place though

Luna Dover: love of the dramatic

Aurora Kitaj: giggles

Aurora Kitaj: giggles again

Fefonz Quan: ki think that relates to the self love we talked about before

Luna Dover: from young to old I would say we have a very, "what's in it for me?" generation

Tarmel Udimo: yes but that's because parents have been giving kids everything

Fefonz Quan: yes, and with self love, that demands acceptance first of all,

Tarmel Udimo: I think most kids these days are spolit

Fefonz Quan: it is hard to satisfy the "wwhat is there for me"

Samuel Okelly: i suspect there is a link to the subjectivism in a secular society

Aurora Kitaj: materially maybe, but not in terms of time

Luna Dover: It is said that the person all wrapped up in themself makes for a small package

Fefonz Quan: can you explain more, Sam?

Wol Euler smiles at Luna

Aurora Kitaj: that's what they are saying about parents, and society

Tarmel Udimo: I think there are levels of understanding and love here

Luna Dover: think of the parents of today, they were kids during what generation and had what generation for parents? Don't we create continuing cycles

Samuel Okelly: it seems to me that there is a clear correlation between the selfishness borne out of subjectivism that has come with the ever increasing secularisation of society and the turning away from established religions

Fefonz Quan: i strongly disagree Samuel

Samuel Okelly: k

Tarmel Udimo: seeking meaning in life has many roads

Wol Euler: it seems to me that many societies are currently de-secularizing very quickly.

Fefonz Quan: i think secular people can be as moral as any religious ones

Samuel Okelly: i agree fe

Wol Euler: the religious right is rampant in America (and Israel)

Tarmel Udimo: yes in fact I think its harder to create on'es own moral code

Wol Euler: less so in Europe, but it is increasing here too

Samuel Okelly: the secular is rampant in america too

Samuel Okelly: the subjective too

Fefonz Quan: and living a long time surrounded by religous people, i long time ago grew up of the alleged inferiority they put upon secular people

Samuel Okelly: i have witnessed the arrogance of selfish secularists too

Wol Euler: of course. People are people.

Fefonz Quan: it can be there though, but i so as many faults in religion people to

Fefonz Quan: so i see no correlation here

Samuel Okelly: i imagine that the faults are in "people" not "religious people" not "secular people" just people

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Wol Euler: granted

Fefonz Quan: moreover, religion starting point is separation most of the time - "my religion is bettr than yours"

Tarmel Udimo: agreed

Wol Euler: and therefore "religion" is not the answer.

Tenk Kidd: I do not believe a Religious belief is necessary for a robust personal moral compass

Samuel Okelly: i disagree fef

Luna Dover: there is no cause so pure, so right, so holy that it will not have thousands of idiots among the followers

Samuel Okelly: a i have asked before here at PaB, where does the non-theistic originate?

Samuel Okelly: its moral code i mean

Fefonz Quan: well, just look at the long relationship between christians, jews and muslims for thousand of year, and you won't find worst relationships anywhere else

Wol Euler: or between protestants and catholics even, in Northern Ireland

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Luna Dover: people walk into religions much in the same reason they walk into a mall, they are looking for a specific item, finding someone who has wholey bought into a religion is rare

Tarmel Udimo: I don't Pab has a moral code except one of enquirey and respect for each other's opinion

Tarmel Udimo: think

Wol Euler: nice one, luna

Samuel Okelly: i strongly disagree with the inferrence seeing it as fallacious

Fefonz Quan: seeing what?

Samuel Okelly: [14:09] Fefonz Quan: well, just look at the long relationship between christians, jews and muslims for thousand of year, and you won't find worst relationships anywhere else [14:10] Wol Euler: or between protestants and catholics even, in Northern Ireland

Samuel Okelly: [14:10] Luna Dover: people walk into religions much in the same reason they walk into a mall, they are looking for a specific item, finding someone who has wholey bought into a religion is rare

Samuel Okelly: one person can not respond sop quickly to so many points

Wol Euler: do you mean they don'T fight each other about their common God?

Wol Euler smiles. OK, one at a time. Samuel, choose someone to reply to, we'll wait

Tarmel Udimo: is this a samuel vs us here?

Tarmel Udimo: I hope not

Luna Dover: they fight because they want to. Thier goal is ego and politics. Much in the way secularists can be self-righteous against the self-righteous

Samuel Okelly: i would suggest that the fact that it is "people" who disagree be they secular or theistic in their beliefs and it is fallacious to infer that it is an inherent flaw that does not exist elsewhere

Tarmel Udimo: hi pluton

Pluton Karas: Hello.

Aurora Kitaj: hi Pluton

Luna Dover: I think much of what we are discussing has to do with the innate goal of finding others on a lower pedestal and making sure they stay there

Fefonz Quan: i hope not too, we are trying though to understand samuel's opinion more profoundly, since religion is a very complex issue

Pluton Karas: Adelene Dawner recommended I visit this place.

Wol Euler: hello pluton, I'll give you an introduction in IM so that we don't disturb the group's conversation

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pluton

Wol Euler: ah! then you know who we are, and that we record and publish our conversations?

Pluton Karas: Yes.

Tarmel Udimo: yes I agree samuel, and fefonz

Samuel Okelly: i feel it is far too simplistic to blame religion alone in this way

Fefonz Quan: not alone, many are the fallacies of man kind...

Samuel Okelly: i think there is a clear correlation with the increasing secularisation of society AND the growth in subjectivism

Fefonz Quan need claarificatin about what subjectivism is

Tarmel Udimo: yes i do too

Luna Dover: We don't want to be perfect but find it very uncomfortable to be the worst so as long as we can find a group below us then we are satisfied, the secualist looks down on the religious, the religious looks down on opposing groups, co-workers look down at that guy over there...

Fefonz Quan disagree with looking down

Tarmel Udimo: yes me too

Samuel Okelly: ithere are no religions that i know of that hold a doctrinal view that their followers will "look down on" anybody

Samuel Okelly: this seems to be a strawman fallacy

Fefonz Quan: disagree

Luna Dover: not down per se, but see ourselves as better off, the old, "I'm no saint, but I'm not in prision or I have never done x-y or z" syndrom

Fefonz Quan: but i think we should define between a "conceptual" religion and teh religon in practice

Samuel Okelly: maybe then fef you can supply a weblink to any of the major religions that contardicts this point?

Tarmel Udimo: all religions have an inner understanding and esoteric ways of being in relationship to god/the divine/being

Fefonz Quan: comunism, for example is a wonderful concept, yet "comunism" becaeme very different in practice

Tarmel Udimo: however when it gets translated for the collective it seems to take on very 'humn' form

Tenk Kidd: Secularist/Religious seems to me an odd distinction - after all, we all believe in something, and have a need for the company of others at least partially aligned to our world view. I suppose I am secular - an Atheist scientist, but I cannot object to another's chosen beliefs even if I canot fathom the reason for them believing what they do...

Wol Euler: indeed. I would extend the same right to you to practice your belief, that I expect you to extend me to practice my unbelief

Samuel Okelly: i think many of a theisticbelief would concur tenk

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Fefonz Quan: on some level, any religion that try to convert others, "look down" on their beliefs

Samuel Okelly: i think there is a strong argument to suggest that everything is "belief"

Fefonz Quan: (that's even they don't practice that by stretching them on teh little wheel

Luna Dover: every system, religion or not, has to promote itself as truth

Samuel Okelly: to suggest that any religion "look down" others is a strawman fallacy in so far as it presuppose athe mistaken belief that any religion can not act out of love and humilty

Tenk Kidd: belief at a sound level has to survive the rigour of some kind of proof, or everything is a guess or a fantasy

Wol Euler: I disagree, samuel.

Pluton Karas: I think you're on to something Samuel.

Wol Euler: if you attempt to convert me to your belief, it cannot be because you consider my beliefs to be of equal worth

Wol Euler: if they were, you would not presume to change them

Pluton Karas: Yes Wol, or.....

Samuel Okelly: wol, you argument presuppose an intent to change... it begs the question

Pluton Karas: Perhaps 'I' am not focusing on which belief is right or wrong....

Pluton Karas: But on 'protecting' you from getting hurt.... does that make sense?

Samuel Okelly: i am arguing that religions can act of love, humility and hope driven by the sincere belief that what they are doing is "in truth"

Wol Euler: fefonz was specifically talking about religions trying to convert others to their beliefs, you replied specifically to that, I replied to you. It does not beg the question, it answers it.

Pluton Karas: Conversion is something nasty.

Tenk Kidd: I would not seek to convet, evangelise or be a missionary for any of my own point of view, but I would explain them in a manner they might be understood, so others could choose to accept a concept

Wol Euler: and pluton, you presume that you know what is right for me when you save me from a hurt that I do not see.

Samuel Okelly: that is what religions do tenk

Pluton Karas: Yes Wol, that is possible.

Luna Dover: to see it from the other side, to convince someone of a known false concept is not to be a friend so to share a belief in what is thought to be a true concept should be the opposite

wiggs Hellershanks: hello

Aurora Kitaj: hello wiggs

Samuel Okelly: hello wiggs

Wol Euler: hello wiggs, take a cushoin

Aurora Kitaj: please take a seat

Tenk Kidd: Sometimes less efectively - Religions often demand 'faith' upfront, rather than base an argument on logic

Wol Euler: um, take an _unoccupied_ cushion :)

Fefonz Quan: I must go, having a meeting in 5 min, so i just want to say, that i do think that many religiong have a core of love, compassin, morality and approval of teh divine/universal that bound us together

Samuel Okelly: for example tenk?

wiggs Hellershanks: yeah people hadn't rezed sorry

Pluton Karas: I read this quote a few years back.... have it taped to my wall....

Pluton Karas: "The function of a spiritual friend is to insult you."

Pluton Karas: What do you think?

Scathach Rhiadra: oops, I have to go, namasté

Wol Euler: wiggs, I'll give you a brief introduction to the group in IM so that we don't disturb the group

Fefonz Quan: yet, putting it to practice, they many time go far from that origin

Tarmel Udimo: see you scath

Wol Euler: bye scath, I'll take the log

Tarmel Udimo: not sure about that one pluton

Luna Dover: doesn't have to be a spiritiual friend, a good friend is one that can be trusted

Samuel Okelly: @tenk - " Religions often demand 'faith' upfront" examples?

Fefonz Quan: and by doing so, create some of the most problematic foundation ever, on mind adn society as well

wiggs Hellershanks: sorry to come i half wway through i'll just listern ans see what i can add to the disscusion

Tarmel Udimo: no worries wiggs

Fefonz Quan: Bye all, it is a great discussion, hope to read the blog as well as continue it on other meetings

Tenk Kidd: Sam, the teaching of religion occurs very early on for children, by people who have the 'faith' that it is right to spread their 'faith'

Fefonz Quan: thanks for that talk :)

Tarmel Udimo: see you fefonz,

Samuel Okelly: tc fef

Tenk Kidd: Bye!

Wol Euler: bye fefonz, take care

Pluton Karas: Tent, I think parents are passing down a particular framework, culture, to their children.....

Samuel Okelly: and how does parental education equate to "a demand"?

Tenk Kidd: On what is the faith of the religious that what they are doing is wise, fair enlightened or socially necessary?

Pluton Karas: Unfortunately, I feel that in the past many religious parents haven't considered what the best way to educate their chidlren should be...

wiggs Hellershanks: well i think to answer a lot of these questions you have to look at why the religeons were formed in the first place

Pluton Karas: That is, not to fit a particular cultural mold, but to grow to be intelligent, thoughtful individuals who will be able to reshape themselves and the culture around them.

wiggs Hellershanks: and the thinking behind them

Wol Euler: true, pluton.

Pluton Karas: Further, I feel this is changing......

Pluton Karas: I feel there are more parents today who are consciously raising their children to be intelligent, as I described.

Pluton Karas: Not enough, though!

Tenk Kidd: Aurora, Sam, everyone - sorry, I have to go thanks for letting me participate.

Samuel Okelly: parents dont invite their children to learn for themselves that fire will burn them... and so for theists, the same applies for their belief

Samuel Okelly: tc tenk

Wol Euler: bye tenk, take care.

Luna Dover: many relgious parents simply want their childen to grow up to be the most they can be and see a lazy self-absorbed culture their kids are surrounded by

Tenk Kidd: Bye!

Aurora Kitaj: Bye Tenk

Samuel Okelly: if in typing quickly i have been unclear i apogise now.. ;-)

Aurora Kitaj: I have to go

wiggs Hellershanks: luna which religeon are you refering to

Tarmel Udimo: me too

Aurora Kitaj: sorry thanks

Luna Dover: general, nothing specific

Samuel Okelly: but i would like to make one last point (for teh record as it were ) that religion cannot be judged by the people who practice it but by what the relgion teaches

Tarmel Udimo: bye everyone

wiggs Hellershanks: oh well lets specify on that coment

Samuel Okelly: tc tam

Wol Euler: bye tarmel, take care.

Wol Euler: enjoy the day

wiggs Hellershanks: if you want to

Wol Euler: and bye aurora too

Luna Dover: but when I came in we were discussing the failure of parents and advertising as a social evil

Samuel Okelly: tc every1 :) see you all again soon i hope :)

Wol Euler: bye samuel, sleep well

wiggs Hellershanks: ah i see luna

Luna Dover: I think many relgious parenets are simply trying to fight the comercialism and lazyness that we were discussing earlier

Pluton Karas: So are many nonreligious parents.

wiggs Hellershanks: nnot in pakistan there is not

Luna Dover: true and frequently in the same way

Pluton Karas: Tell us about that wiggs.

wiggs Hellershanks: well the muslim faith is say 500 years younger then the christain faith

wiggs Hellershanks: it hasn't degrade or grown yet

wiggs Hellershanks: so far it has the same traits as the christian faith did say 500 years ago

Luna Dover: Grown?

Wol Euler frowns. What do you mean?

wiggs Hellershanks: evolved

Luna Dover: well they would say they got it right the first time. smiles

wiggs Hellershanks: there women are very much repressed as the christian faith did 500 years ago

Wol Euler: true

wiggs Hellershanks: we used to burn withcs and and they stone there women

Luna Dover: 500 years ago was the dark ages.

wiggs Hellershanks: not in religious terms

wiggs Hellershanks: a lot of western people look at the mulim faith and say it is in the dark ages

Luna Dover: actually in every regard

Wol Euler: Islam's great problem is that it has never gotten over the Crusades. That is their only way of seeing non-Islam.

wiggs Hellershanks: what i'm trying to say is we can look at the history of most religeions and they are all very similar

wiggs Hellershanks: no islams great problem is it has not evolved yet

Wol Euler: it can't let itself evolve, because it might turn into us if it did.

Luna Dover: well, the commonality of all religions is people and people have a common problem that manifests itself in a limited number of ways

wiggs Hellershanks: you are thinking along my lines now

wiggs Hellershanks: i disagree, the commonality of religeon is controlling the masses

Wol Euler chuckles. Granted.

wiggs Hellershanks: if you control the people through faith you have power

Wol Euler: Marx was right about htat.

wiggs Hellershanks: at the end of the day power is what it is all about

wiggs Hellershanks: you can then take your people to war just like the crusades

wiggs Hellershanks: you can make a person die for there faith

wiggs Hellershanks: we used to do the same as the muslims did 500 years ago

Wol Euler: the history of England during the 1500's is pretty grim, as the state religion changed from Catholic to Protestant.

wiggs Hellershanks: now the muslim faith is evolving very quickly so to repress that evolution the powers that be have to resist western comodities

Wol Euler: there were pogroms and faithbased murders there too.

wiggs Hellershanks: yes exactly

Luna Dover: well time to go, have a good one.

Pluton Karas: Take care Luna.

Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I must go, it is getting very late for me

Pluton Karas: I will get going as well.

wiggs Hellershanks: to keep on top you have to stop people thinking for themselves say have a weekly meetiing to keep the message there

Luna Dover: Byeies

Wol Euler: bye luna, take care. nice meeting you.

wiggs Hellershanks: sorry bored you all

Wol Euler: pluton, wiggs, it was nice to have met you

Wol Euler: we were not bored.

Pluton Karas: Good bye Wol and wiggs....

Wol Euler: it's nearly midnight for me.

Pluton Karas: Enjoy the rest of your day/night.

wiggs Hellershanks: ok goodnight

Wol Euler: the group meets at 1am, 7am, 1pm, 7pm every day. Come back another time!