2009.02.17 13:00 - Babies and Being

The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

Lia Rikugun: hello
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hey Scath :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Lia
Fefonz Quan: being the late GoC here, were there any conversation before i lately arrived?
Scathach Rhiadra: no, I had just arrived:)
Lia Rikugun: hello doug
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Solo:)
Fefonz Quan: Hi Doug
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Doug
Fefonz Quan: and Solo
Lia Rikugun: helo solo
Fefonz Quan: good to see you here
doug Sosa: :)
Solobill Laville: Hi, all :)
Fefonz Quan: I have a little technical question:
Fefonz Quan: if i get a group notice of an event (like your sutra club now Solo)
Fefonz Quan: how can i save it in my inventory in order not to forget it?
Scathach Rhiadra: I don't think you can save it
Fefonz Quan: Solo just Soloed out...
doug Sosa: its a good question. i often get things and if i click"ok", its gone.
Scathach Rhiadra: but you can look up the notices on the group profile
Fefonz Quan: right.
doug Sosa: but you then have to remember it.
doug Sosa: it= their group name.
Fefonz Quan: yes, but if ou get them it is one of your groups
Fefonz Quan: WB SOlo
Scathach Rhiadra: even if you saved it to your inventory, you could still forget you had it:)
Scathach Rhiadra: its not like a diary entry
doug Sosa: that helps.
Fefonz Quan can forget anything anywhere
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Solobill Laville: (sorry about that, I was just typing away happily to find I had crashed :))
Fefonz Quan: so some kind of SLT calendar is required then.
Lia Rikugun: thats a good idea
Scathach Rhiadra: do you use Outlook?
Fefonz Quan: sometimes
Fefonz Quan: but that's out of world, it
Fefonz Quan: would be convenient to have it inworld
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: (and if you switch time zones with your outlook calendar, you know why)

  

Then we got into more PaB stuff back.

Fefonz Quan: i have a questin/thought about our no-concepts practice
Fefonz Quan: question*
Lia Rikugun: ok?
Scathach Rhiadra listens
Fefonz Quan: Yesterday i practices a little meditating, while looking at the hair of someone infront of me,
Fefonz Quan: trying to get beyond its "hairness", and then it's browness etc.
Fefonz Quan: then it occured to me, that a baby, before learning about hair, color, people
Fefonz Quan: might have the same no-conceptual experience we strive to achieve
Fefonz Quan: So there are two questions: 1. so does that baby sees reality better then we do?
Fefonz Quan: and 2. - if so, still he has to acquire all the extra data inorder to get on in the world and grow up properly
Lia Rikugun: interesting...
Lia Rikugun: hello wol
doug Sosa: the babay is much more intensely bathed in aromas, and visually looking for eyes. Strong motives, vague perceptions of the rest.
Fefonz Quan: Heya Wol :)
Solobill Laville: Wol :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol:)
Wol Euler: good evening everyone.
Solobill Laville: Many traditions talk of "having a childlike mind", especially some Zen schools
Lia Rikugun: in the bible too i believe
Solobill Laville: Yes
Solobill Laville: And some Korean Zen schools emphasize "simple mind" in the everyday world
Fefonz Quan: Yes Solo i've heard that
Solobill Laville: not thinking about thinking
Fefonz Quan: but then i don't think we want to get back to that baby consciousness
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Solobill Laville: no, buut the baby doesn't judge and divide all of these things.
Scathach Rhiadra: the baby is also intensely driven by very simple needs, like hunger
Solobill Laville: What does a baby think when he/she see brown hair?
Fefonz Quan: yes Solo, we don't either while practicing
Fefonz Quan: i guess he sees a direct experience without concepts
Scathach Rhiadra: If the baby got a hold of the hair it would probably try to put it in its mouth
Fefonz Quan: yes Scath, before that stage
Solobill Laville: I'd posit not even seeing a direct experience, but simply directly experiencing :)
Lia Rikugun: (during the week end I visited an exhibition (the guggenheim museum) there were paintings of Franz marc who has animals in this paintings because he says they show or feel the real nature in things)
doug Sosa: iamgine you had a crush on the person with the hair. it would look very different. the baaby always has a crush, which is sometimes frustrated.
Lia Rikugun: (I dont remembver ther exact wordings..)
Fefonz Quan: why does the baby has a crush doug?
doug Sosa: on mother, and everything is potentially that mother, so gaze is motivated.
Wol Euler: I think that's true, though, my impression is that babies love everyone they see
Fefonz Quan: he doesn't see the mother resting in the cradle
Wol Euler: up to a certain age at least
Fefonz Quan: i wuld agree with Solo about experiencing directly, hence my question
Solobill Laville: I think it was Hegel who suggested that consciousness, as in I can see that I am, is what causes our sense of seperation
Wol Euler: but I do think there is a difference between the no-mind of an adult meditating well, and a baby's thoughtless delight
Fefonz Quan: So the babe has a non-dual view
Solobill Laville: I would guess this happens around 2-4 years old
Scathach Rhiadra: and animals are driven by their instincts
Solobill Laville: Yes, Wol! It is like traveling the world to realize how much you love home :)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fefonz Quan: So what is the difference Wol?
Lia Rikugun: babys have insticnts as well
Wol Euler: the adult can judge, but doesn't. The baby cannot yet judge.
Lia Rikugun: or reflexes
Fefonz Quan: so they end up in the same state
Wol Euler: I'm not certain that they do.
Fefonz Quan: coming from different paths
Wol Euler: the adult is aware that s/he is being non-judgemental
Fefonz Quan: that just points out how hard it is for an adult to reach that state
Fefonz Quan: but is the baby state desirable?
Fefonz Quan: (we presume it is for an adult, hence we are all here, playing as being)
Lia Rikugun: I dont have an answer to this fef
Solobill Laville: A simple honest mind, is desirable, I think
Solobill Laville: But as adults we can help others
Scathach Rhiadra: a baby doesn't shoose to be non-judgmental, it just doesn't yet know any better
Scathach Rhiadra: choose*
Fefonz Quan: better?
Wol Euler: yes, scath, that is where I was heading.
Scathach Rhiadra: or different
Fefonz Quan: :)
Lia Rikugun: open embrqcing the world
Lia Rikugun: *embracing
Wol Euler: there is a difference between having a knife and not using it, and having no knife.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Solobill Laville: I think a baby hasn't yet put a stake in the ground
Solobill Laville: saying "I am different that you"
Solobill Laville: Which is what some of perhaps are trying to overcome :)
Solobill Laville: *than
Fefonz Quan: exactly
Solobill Laville: *us
Fefonz Quan: So the last notes are pointing to the moral issue of "what am i doing with this clear view"
Fefonz Quan: but before we go there, i find it difficult to believe taht all we are aiming at we achieved when babies and lost now
Fefonz Quan: and hard to believe that's what we're trying to do
Wol Euler: I'm certainly not aiming at anything more than being less unhappy more often :)
Solobill Laville: :)
Fefonz Quan: double negations are always tricky for me Wol :)
Wol Euler smiles. But I deliberately didn't say "being happy", that is a different matter.
Solobill Laville: All the thoughts of "loss" or "gain' are themselves part of the muddy water
Fefonz Quan: maddy waters?
Solobill Laville: perhaps best to just let those go too?
Fefonz Quan hum pubum, pubum, yeah yeah
Wol Euler: I try. And it does help.
Fefonz Quan: i also thing we aim to reduce suffering in some way
Fefonz Quan dodge a pillow thrown by Pema:)
Solobill Laville points to something practical that Wol just offered, with a voucher :)
Wol Euler: mm?
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Solobill Laville: I think that is true Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: so why does being like a new born baby should help at this?
Lia Rikugun: embracing the world as it is
Fefonz Quan: (ignorance is bliss comes to mind)
Lia Rikugun: try to change it
Lia Rikugun: if not possible then what can you do
Solobill Laville: In order to see clearly, we need the windshield cleaned off a bit
Solobill Laville: But once we can see clearly, then that kind of compassion is a natural outgrowth
Solobill Laville: Not so the case in ignorance
Lia Rikugun: i think it is impronatnt to have both views, the baby and the adult view
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe to see and appreciate appearances like for the first time, but without actually becoming like a baby
Wol Euler: me nods
Fefonz Quan: so babies are naturally compassionate and happy?
Lia Rikugun: there are babies crying all the time
Solobill Laville: no, I think to what Wol and Kia have said
Fefonz Quan: yep, Lia
Solobill Laville: You need to have the separation to come back home
Solobill Laville: -> Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: yet home wasn't so nice to start with
Fefonz Quan: so maybe we'll get there and see it was not what ew were looking for
Solobill Laville: Home = Being = Suchness = God
Wol Euler: ... which is still a valuable thing to learn
Wol Euler: /me's eyes widen. Interesting, Solo ...
Fefonz Quan: complex word for me Solo
Fefonz Quan: words*
Solobill Laville: (yes, use your own word here ;)
Wol Euler: (I remember that "Suchness" came up in a log some time back, but what does it mean again?)
Fefonz Quan: but if we've been there and it wasn't nice, i again?
Fefonz Quan: why again *
Lia Rikugun: we can never go back again, we gained more experiences
Lia Rikugun: it is not the same home
Fefonz Quan: we loosed more experiences in a sense
Wol Euler nods
Fefonz Quan: lost*
Solobill Laville: (suchness is a more "positive" Buddhist term for the nature of ultimate reality -> Wol)
Wol Euler: ty
Solobill Laville: [13:45] Fefonz Quan: but if we've been there and it wasn't nice, i again?
Solobill Laville: Been where, and how not nice, Fefonz?
Wol Euler: is taht like Heidegger's "Dasein" perhaps?
Lia Rikugun: (have to read this up)
Fefonz Quan: well, if babies are there, and they are not compassionate and happy
Fefonz Quan: that's not nice
Solobill Laville: sorry guys, brb
Fefonz Quan: what is Dasein Wol?
Wol Euler: Beingness, in a word
Wol Euler: Heidegger was also interested in the "world-ness" of the world, wanting to express the fact-ness of it.
Fefonz Quan: suchness sounds like world-ness i guess(ness) :)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Wol Euler: his philosophy overlaps (IMHO) with wu wei, with the just-being-ness of the world.
Wol Euler: (I should point out htat I am not a philosopher, nor have I studied this in depth)
Solobill Laville: back
Fefonz Quan: wb
Scathach Rhiadra: brb
Fefonz Quan still holds to the question
Wol Euler: he was fascinated by appearance and perception, there is also an overlap with phenomenology
Lia Rikugun: (are we better than babies or animals just because we think we understand more?)
Scathach Rhiadra: back
Solobill Laville: Dasein sounds like - just is
Fefonz Quan: not better, surely
Wol Euler: yes, that's right. The Being-ness of things.
Lia Rikugun: so we are all same
Lia Rikugun: so what is the state we want to reach?
Lia Rikugun: what is the best one?
Lia Rikugun: noone
Lia Rikugun: no one
Solobill Laville: experiencing directly that awareness of sameness in everything
Solobill Laville: (speaks humbly for himself...)
Lia Rikugun: ok
Wol Euler: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fefonz Quan: and is that experience goes through dissolving concepts?
Lia Rikugun: not sure
Lia Rikugun: it might be
Solobill Laville: it's just that concepts don't work
Wol Euler: for certain values of "don't"
Solobill Laville: yet many folks try to logic it our
Fefonz Quan: and no-concepts work?
Solobill Laville: *out
Fefonz Quan: i guess it's coming back to teh good old question will the truth set us free?
Fefonz Quan: question:*
Solobill Laville: Is the absence of concepts no-concepts? Or is no-concepts itself a type of conceptualization?
Lia Rikugun: we are free we just dont know it ;)
Fefonz Quan: the ice cream i can't taste is not sweet, sorry :)
Solobill Laville: that concepts / no-concepts thing is still part of the duality quagmire
Wol Euler: "we are rattling the bars of a cage that isn't locked"
Lia Rikugun: there is no cage
Lia Rikugun: :D
Wol Euler: or that, maybe.
Solobill Laville: Rattle
Solobill Laville: hehe
Solobill Laville: I think a baby just in like this...HAIR!
Solobill Laville: *is
Fefonz Quan: exactly my point Solo, and that's wht bothered me
Fefonz Quan: i think also he is like this, and he doesn't seem to me as in a place i would rather be in
Lia Rikugun: if you would be in his state you wouldnt matter
Solobill Laville: Yes, but as some of those traditions say, "be LIKE a child", not "be a child"...
Lia Rikugun: this is you thinking this now
Lia Rikugun: fef
Wol Euler: It is perhaps worth remembering that people in monasteries tend not to have children :) They were picking their illustrations without much diret experience.
Fefonz Quan: this is no-me non-thinking it :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods @ Wol:)
Lia Rikugun: thats true
Fefonz Quan: so maybe this is the root to happiness Wol ;-)
Solobill Laville: Yes, and Wol, I think too that contemplation helped them to see that type of simplicity, perhaps from their own youth, as somewhat desirable to "settle the mind" perhaps
Fefonz Quan: it's coffee time (meaning Dreams at Kira)
Lia Rikugun: we try to reach things we are not
Solobill Laville: :) Bye for now
Fefonz Quan: though i am the GoC, so there is a conflict....
Wol Euler: not for me, I need to get to bed. It's been a hard week and it's only half over
Lia Rikugun: instead of just being
Solobill Laville: Well, I am staying here Fef, so I can send you any more text
Lia Rikugun: i need to go as well actually
Fefonz Quan: good night Wol, hope you endure that week and enjoy the way too
Scathach Rhiadra: its the walk through of the Kira celebration too:)
Fefonz Quan: yes, right, so are we calling the session over?
Wol Euler: actually the logger will record everything up until the session stops, it doesn't stop listening when teh person who claimed the session leaves
Solobill Laville: Oh, I could to that Scath, is that at Kira or off site?
Scathach Rhiadra: at Kira I think
Solobill Laville: Well, sounds like we may be done :)
Fefonz Quan: i should claim it
Wol Euler: mmhmm (to both)
Solobill Laville: Night Wol :)
Wol Euler: goodnight my dears, take care. be happy
Scathach Rhiadra: night Wol:)
Fefonz Quan: tc Wol
Lia Rikugun: byebye everybody
Solobill Laville: Think I'll fly...Bye Lia
Fefonz Quan: see you all at the cafe :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia:0

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