2009.02.15 07:00 - Daring to be Naked

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

 I arrived first and was soon joined by Geo and before too long, Pema. I was wearing a "Novice" tag as a reminder to go back to thinking like a beginner. This was partly inspried by my work on the Chronicles, i.e. witnessing my willingness to be open to whatever came my way last June when I started PaB. There is a bit more to it and I felt a bit as if my skin might be glass and everyone could see inside.

Adams Rubble: Hello Geo :)

Adams Rubble: I hope you are well :)
Geo Netizen: Yes ... and you?
Adams Rubble: Yes, I am. thanks :)
Adams Rubble: Did you by any chance get to the exhibition?
Geo Netizen: No ... The past couple weeks have bee very busy for me
Adams Rubble: ah. OK. If you do, I would be interested in your thoughts
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: The Art History was our first concern but we touched on the spiritual and it is hard to know how we did on that end
Adams Rubble: :)
Geo Netizen: Today and tomorrow should be more open … I do want to take a look … hopefully I’ll be able to get over there.
Adams Rubble: Is there anything you would like to talk about today?

Geo asks about my tag...

Geo Netizen: I see you are a "Novice" at something in particular?
Geo Netizen: :)
Adams Rubble: Yes, you are the first person who has asked :)
Adams Rubble: Good morning Pema :)
Geo Netizen: Hi Pema
Adams Rubble: Since I have come in to PaB I have been looking inward at myself
Pema Pera: Hi Geo, Adams!
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: So good to see you again, Geo!!
Adams Rubble: I am beginning to think more about looking outward
Adams Rubble: The "novice" is a reminder to me
Adams Rubble: I am not very good at it :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Geo Netizen: Excellent approach
Pema Pera: indeed!
Geo Netizen: That's a good idea
Geo Netizen: Like approaching it "as a beginner"

Pema reminds us that looking outward is related to Love

Pema Pera: Actually that is one of Christianity's strong points, the outward part, love thy neighbor
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: Yes, and Paul emphasizes it so
Adams Rubble: Love that is
Geo Netizen: And John
Geo Netizen: :)

Selena, Corvi, Udge and Scath arrive in quick succession

Adams Rubble: Hello Selena :)
selena Quar: hello
Pema Pera: Hi Selena!
selena Quar: hi
Geo Netizen: Hi Selena
selena Quar: hi
Adams Rubble: Good morning Corvi :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi, Adams, Geo, Pema, Selena
Adams Rubble: Good afternoon Udge :)
Geo Netizen: Hi Corvi
Geo Netizen smiles
Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
Udge Watanabe: afternoon invisible people.
Pema Pera: Glad you came back, Selena :)
selena Quar: :)
Pema Pera: Hi Udge!!
Geo Netizen nods to Udge
Adams Rubble is enjoying watching the shadows circling the fountain :)
Adams Rubble: whoops Seelena is gone

 Pema and simultaneously try to open some discussion in the midst of the greetings

Adams Rubble: Does anyone have anything to report regarding the nine seconds or anything else?
Pema Pera: I'm curious to hear how we are all working with having versus being
Pema Pera: what it means to drop what you have to see what you are
Adams Rubble: Hello Scath :)
Pema Pera: Hi Scathach!
Udge Watanabe: hello scathach
Geo Netizen: Hi Scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Adams, Pema:)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Scath!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Udge, Corvi, Geo:)
Pema Pera: what happens when we try to drop what we have?
Pema Pera: it that easy, or hard, or . . . ?

Pema succeeds....

Adams Rubble has been forgetting to do this but it may be happening inadvertantly
Geo Netizen: Seems redirecting outward may be another way to drop what we have and refocus on what we are
Adams Rubble: yes
Udge Watanabe: I've been reading the logs of recent sessions, and note that a mutual friend of ours is really struggling with that detachment when it comes to discussions of religion
Geo Netizen smiles
Udge Watanabe: she identifies strongly with her non-religion, as it were, and becomes personally affronted when it is attacked.
Pema Pera: yes, it is all a matter of attachment and identification -- not denying, forcing, avoiding -- rather accepting but in a "light" way, no heavy-handed
Pema Pera getting curious about Udge's oracular speech . . . .
Pema Pera: could it be . . .
Pema Pera: :-)
Adams Rubble slowly gets the idea

...and with our brief answers given, Pema "tells us more" about how this is all about dropping what we have or think we have

Pema Pera: so the dropping of what we have really is the dropping of over-attachment to what we have
Pema Pera: nothing needs to be cut off or lost in any way
Udge Watanabe: yes, I think so.
Pema Pera: neither outer nor inner
Pema Pera: neither others nor self
Pema Pera: whether the self is real, who cares?
Pema Pera: don't associate too strongly with your self image
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: that's all

We begin to look into what it is we "have"

Geo Netizen: What we have is not who we are; many have great confusion over that
Pema Pera: then you can be happy Buddhist or happy Hindu or whatever
Adams Rubble gets very confused about that
Pema Pera: yes, Geo!
Geo Netizen: They identify who they are with the job they do for example
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or happy not any of the above?
Udge Watanabe: geo, I think that is partly because it is hammered into us at an early age.
Pema Pera: up to you, Corvi :)
Geo Netizen: I have a job ... I am not the job
Pema Pera: I have needs!
Pema Pera: tough one, that one
Udge Watanabe: Be good, be obedient, follow this and that tack, but not the other
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera: I have loneliness -- very powerful one!
Geo Netizen: but I am not those needs

Pema's next statement hits something I had recently observed in myself as one of my "selves" re-emerged very needy

Pema Pera: I have a need for someone outside to do what I cannot do myself . . . .
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: in contrast: I can open up to what I am and share that
Pema Pera: true love, not neediness
Pema Pera: not possessiveness
Geo Netizen: Hmmmm very broad topic

Adams Rubble: Yes!
Pema Pera: yes perhaps this is the only topic
Udge Watanabe: :)
Pema Pera: and everything else are variations
Scathach Rhiadra: dropping the 'clinging' can be very liberating
Pema Pera: !!

 From liberating to terrifying as we continuing the thread of seeking to satisfy our needs from others

Udge Watanabe: but also terrifying, I think.
Udge Watanabe: because you stand naked then, before yourself.
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I agree:)
Geo Netizen: When we identify our being with these things needed … yes it can be terrifying
Adams Rubble: hmmm. Not quite terrifying but a little scary at first
Corvuscorva Nightfire: terrifying.
Adams Rubble: :)
Geo Netizen nods
Udge Watanabe: one person#s terror is another#s gentle frisson.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: probably.
Udge Watanabe: how do I know that your broken leg hurts more than my hangnail?
Adams Rubble stands corrected
Geo Netizen: To try to give them up feels like giving your self away … will there be anything left??
Udge Watanabe: heheheh, sorry Adams, it wasn't intended as a correction.
Pema Pera: :-)
Geo Netizen watches Pema bang away at the keys and waits...
Adams Rubble was taken with Pema's statement that we look to others for what we think we need and do not have
Adams Rubble: If I said that correctly
Pema Pera: most of those in the past who have truly seen have reported on pretty terrifying journeys to get to the point where they could really see clearly . . . but perhaps that is related to starting with too limited a view of religion and spiritual practices . . . .
Pema Pera: Yes, we think we need others to provide us with something
Pema Pera: so we treat others as providers, not freely as others to love and share openness with

..and the cost of seeing others as providers...

Pema Pera: we plunder the Earth and frankly, subtly, we plunder our friends
Pema Pera: and we plunder ourselves
Pema Pera: in desperation
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ourselves?
Pema Pera: until we learn to drop what we have
Adams Rubble: We certainly limit ourselves
Pema Pera: yes, we shortchange ourselves
Pema Pera: a form of plundering
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Pema Pera: view ourselves as too limited, unworthy, needy
Pema Pera: 'cause we stare ourselves blind at what we have, forgetting to see what we are
Pema Pera in an unusually serious mood :-)
Geo Netizen: at least we bury ourselves
Adams Rubble: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Adams Rubble enjoying Pema's serious mood
Adams Rubble: learning from it
Pema Pera: brimstone!!
Pema Pera: oh yea of little faith!!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ha!
Udge Watanabe: :)
Adams Rubble has heard brimstone and this isn't brimstone :)
Pema Pera: it's brimming at least, I hope
Adams Rubble not quaking yet
Geo Netizen: looking at other as providers: as a source of gratification
Pema Pera: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Pema Pera: very hard to see that
Pema Pera: but when you really see it, easy to drop or at least to relax the tendency
Scathach Rhiadra: we love to be loved, not just giving love

Yes Scath, isn't that so true

Pema Pera: the 9-sec can be a great practice
Pema Pera: dropping bit by bit what we have, ALL that we have . . . .
Pema Pera: even if we "give" love we tend to have the wrong picture
Geo Netizen: We ask “who am I” … an interesting question: “Who are you” asked from my perspective.
Pema Pera: as if I hand over something to you
Geo Netizen: Are you provider
Pema Pera: rather than totally free and open sharing
Geo Netizen: are you gratifier?
Adams Rubble: Yes George
Pema Pera: yes, Geo, nice switch!
Adams Rubble: We miss the person
Geo Netizen nods
Pema Pera too

Drum rolls.....and now the title.... and then some pleasant banter...

Pema Pera: Daring to be naked is a very unusual kind of gift to give, to yourself and to others both . . . . the gift of dropping what you have, what you have been clinging to . . . .
Geo Netizen: pealing back the layers that we and others have grafted over us
Adams Rubble looks at all the layers and sighs
Geo Netizen: The labels .... the expectations
Pema Pera: yes, and that is where phenomenology can help, to notice the layers
Geo Netizen: the prejudices
Geo Netizen nods
Geo Netizen sinks into thought
Pema Pera looking at an ad in the train (from Boston to New York this time): "what do you need to succeed" -- and suddenly thinking to change the words: "why do you think you need to succeed?"
Udge Watanabe: heheheheh
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: "and what would success mean?"
Adams Rubble: :)
Udge Watanabe: "aren't you already successful beyond measure?"
Pema Pera: !!
Udge Watanabe: brb
Pema Pera: just past through the town of Mystic -- must rub off!
Pema Pera: Mystic, CT
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: *passed
Pema Pera: Beautiful sunny morning, blue sky, yellow marshes . . .
Adams Rubble: That is a lovely stretch of track
Udge Watanabe: I know that route, taken it many times between NYC and friends in Newport RI

Passing through with a Mooring

Pema Pera sad to miss the next two PaB sessions, coinciding with his flight from JFK to LA . . . leaving right at 1 pm SLT
Pema Pera: Odd life: I will take a taxi cab from New York Penn Station directly to JFK airport; no time even to go home . . . .
Udge Watanabe: home is the departure lounge...
Udge Watanabe: or the suitcase
Pema Pera: :)
Udge Watanabe: or the laptop.
Pema Pera: home is also here, in this pavilion . . . .
Geo Netizen smiles
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: the one constant in all my travels!
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Udge Watanabe: do people in the train ever ask you what you#re doing?
Udge Watanabe: (in SL...)
Pema Pera: My first virtual world was Videoranch, just about two years ago . . . and logging in for the third time or so after flying to Osaka, right there at the airport, was an amazing experience -- hadn't left, after 14 hours of flying, came back to the same place . . . .
Pema Pera: that was one of my eye openers for the power of virtual worlds
Pema Pera: finding my buddies at Osaka airport
Udge Watanabe nods.
Pema Pera: all pretending nothing had happened!
Adams Rubble: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Pema Pera: Yes, Udge, they look over my shoulders, quizzically
Pema Pera: rarely ask
Pema Pera: but happy if I tell them
Udge Watanabe: mmhmm
Pema Pera: "what, you play video games as part of your work???"
Pema Pera: "and get paid to study black holes???"
Geo Netizen chuckles
Pema Pera makes many people envious, . . . ., but what can he do?
Adams Rubble: Some of that rubs off on us too as we picture you, and others, from so many aprts of the world...making it smaller and more like a neighborhood
Pema Pera: you too, Adams, sharing your Art History with us !!
Pema Pera: leading us across centuries and continents with your exhibit
Pema Pera: I think we all, each in our own way, are enriching each other and the whole PaB community . . . . palpably so

And then, Korii, a newcomer to us but an "oldtimer" in Second Life arrives. Korii is wearing the most delicate wings I have ever seen and I miss some conversation staring at them. Althoug I am unaware of it for some time, I crash somewhere during this time

Geo Netizen: Hi Korii
Pema Pera: Hi Korii!
Adams Rubble: Hello Korii
Pema Pera: How nice to see you here!!
Pema Pera: Come join us
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Korii
Udge Watanabe: hello korii
Udge Watanabe: oh wow, born in 2005. An old-timer
Korii Tiger: ^.^
Korii Tiger: hello
Pema Pera: Have you been here before, Korii?
Korii Tiger: nope
Pema Pera: Korii is one of my astrophysics friends
Geo Netizen: Ahhh -SellaNova- :)
Korii Tiger: ^.^
Pema Pera: yes, StellaNova is what it is because of Korii
Geo Netizen chuckles
Korii Tiger blushes
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: She has done a lot of the landscaping there and general building up
Korii Tiger: what were we talking about befor i interupted?

Hmm. Was was it we were talking about?

Adams Rubble: Korii, do you know we are being recorded and it appears on the Wiki. Do you have any objections to that?
Korii Tiger: yes i do
Korii Tiger: i don' t mind
Geo Netizen: Hmmm. I think we had gone to the affirmation mode :)
Pema Pera: We were talking about love beyond possessiveness and neediness
Adams Rubble: thank you :)
Pema Pera: quite a bit topic
Pema Pera: about dropping addiction to what you have, to see what you are
Pema Pera: in a very broad way

Korii gets right into it as if she was a regular

Korii Tiger: alost sounsds metaphysical
Pema Pera: as you can imagine, we didn't finish yet :-)
Pema Pera: oh, but we are very practical
Geo Netizen: dropping addiction to what you need, to see what the other is
Pema Pera: comparing it with our every-day life
Korii Tiger nods.
Pema Pera: reporting how we struggle with putting it into practice
Korii Tiger: did we consider why we have a hard tiem putting them into practice?
Pema Pera: we seem to forget the obvious . . . . and cling to the habit of self-protection . . . .
Korii Tiger: instincts..

What we do in PaB:

Pema Pera: the obvious being that opening up for others is the greatest gift you can give someone
Pema Pera: so we remind each other here in this group
Korii Tiger: that comes with a catch tho.. a lot of people you may open up to would take considerable advantage of that.. takign what they can...how does oen elarn to be compelatly oppen and stil safe?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Korii
Geo Netizen: they can only take advantage of those layers that should be shed
Korii Tiger: thats something i've personaly experimented with over the years.. partioularly in SL .. i don' t think i've ever been so vulnerable befor.
Pema Pera: but often we just joke or are silly -- or just quiet :-)
Korii Tiger: hmmm

Udge Changes the thread slightly:

Udge Watanabe: my answer, and it might be a bad one, is that you don't open up to everyone.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I agree, Korii..that seem sto me to be my dilemma..how to be open...how to shed..without losing boundaries....
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that I don't have such a good grip on, anyway.
Geo Netizen kami lag strikes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but..I think....that the lack of safety is more acute when I am holding on to "self"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: there is so much more to lose.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and given what we said before..that we are trying to be gratified
Korii Tiger: my experioances in that have been diferant.. the more open i am the more vulnerable i feel.. but i'm also quiter adept at shields..
Geo Netizen: wb Pema
Korii Tiger: wb Pema
Udge Watanabe: wb pema
Geo Netizen: protecting those layers
Korii Tiger: no the leylers protect the dore.
Korii Tiger: core
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...or just not being hurt by what people throw at me.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and not being led so much by "want"
Udge Watanabe: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire guffaws.
Geo Netizen: When we talk about opening up, I find I'm usually talking about exposing a layer that is one that has been applied to me and not part of who I am.
Udge Watanabe: how do the poor ducks use their cellphones?
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Geo.
Korii Tiger fp;ds her hands.
Korii Tiger: folds too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm focused in this on the layers added by "need/want"
Geo Netizen nods
Korii Tiger nods
Geo Netizen: We and others add layers over our being, layers which we and others use to identify and label us. Layers of class, job, religion, etc
Geo Netizen: They are just that, layers added on and not part of who we are
Geo Netizen: It is those layers that people access to take advantage of us
Geo Netizen: But we don't need the layers
Korii Tiger: oh./. those leyers
Korii Tiger: i shed those years ago.
Geo Netizen: If you feel people are able to take advantage of you, then perhaps there are more layers
Korii Tiger: I mean when i was younge i did the christian thing and the goth thing and this that and the othjer.. i did them cause I had a need for acceptance a need to label myself as a definition to others.. but then... as i got older.. i realized i didn't really need that.. i didn''t need acceptence from others i didn't need a label or a group.. i simply became me... uninterested by the thoughts and opinions of others.,, now i simply exsist here doing what i can for others where i can.. because its in my nature to help others..

I arrive back with Pema gone (Hmm maybe the problem wasn't on my end)

Udge Watanabe: wb adams
Scathach Rhiadra: wb Adams:)
Korii Tiger: wb adams
Adams Rubble: thanks all :)
Geo Netizen: Labels are one type of layer
Korii Tiger: mmm hmm..
Geo Netizen: When you were introduced two more types of layers were mentioned
Geo Netizen: What you do: astrophysics
Korii Tiger: elaberate
Korii Tiger: i don't.
Geo Netizen: and your connections: who you know
Korii Tiger: i just like to learn about it.
Geo Netizen: O ...
Geo Netizen: point is what our job is is another layer
Korii Tiger: i don';t have a job
Korii Tiger: i never even bothered witht hat layer
Geo Netizen: or volunteer work or major in school ... or ....
Korii Tiger: can we help those too?
Geo Netizen: perhaps you have stripped off all layers ... it has been done :)
Korii Tiger: soicizaty more or less dictates we msut go throough those things in life.. to get dsome where.. that is one of the aspects of life i've avoided the most..
Geo Netizen: I know that I have not
Udge Watanabe wonders how to introduce yourself without mentioning any of those things.
Udge Watanabe: (assume ofor the moment that "introducing yourelf" is a worthwhile activity)
Korii Tiger: i never even graduated higschool and i supose that in itelf is a lyer.. but those layers to me.. seem to be more of an outsiders perseption.. and i do not have to adheare to it or accept that as part of my personaly.
Korii Tiger: well
Korii Tiger: if i was given the chance to introduice myselkf
Korii Tiger: i jsut would have said korii
Korii Tiger: you seee..
Korii Tiger: not all layers are held onto
Korii Tiger: some are jsu tforced onto us by others peope perseptions
Korii Tiger: which i chose to ignore
Scathach Rhiadra: is our view of our 'self' not one of the hardest layers to drop?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but it seems to me there is another layer of layers: "how _I_ approach the world...what _I_ choose to do in each similar situation.
Geo Netizen: Except there is a core being that is eternally unique (IMO of course)
Geo Netizen: and we strip layers seeking that core
Korii Tiger nods...
Geo Netizen nods still thinking about Corvi's comment
Geo Netizen and Scathach's comment
Geo Netizen sinks again into thought
Adams Rubble: Hello scomael
Geo Netizen: Hi Scomael
Geo Netizen: Thinks of a quote and hope no one minds to much * A good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent upon arriving. A good artist lets her intuition lead her wherever it wants. A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps her mind open to what is.
Korii Tiger smiles.

A new person, scomael, arrives on his first day in SL

scomael Savira: hello
Korii Tiger: hello
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Scomael
Geo Netizen: Hi Scomael .... have you been here before
Geo Netizen: ?
scomael Savira: no new to all this
Geo Netizen: We have discussions which are recorded and
Adams Rubble: Welcome to Second Life :)
Geo Netizen: put up on Wiki
Udge Watanabe: hello scomael, sorry, I was distracted.
Geo Netizen: do you mind if you are included?
scomael Savira: i dont mind
Geo Netizen can't seem to find his notecard on P&B
Adams Rubble: I sent him one Geo :)
Geo Netizen: Thanks
Geo Netizen: Can you give me another one Adams? seem to have lost mine :(
Adams Rubble: Will do :)
Geo Netizen: TY
Adams Rubble: They also can be picked up at the information posts outside the pavilion
Adams Rubble: One of my layers this morning is GOC. hehe
Udge Watanabe smiles
Geo Netizen chuckles
Geo Netizen: That is true ... roles can be layers
Geo Netizen: but only if we identify with them
Geo Netizen: if they become part of who we are
Adams Rubble not wearing the Playasbing identification tag
Geo Netizen: I -do- like the Novice tag ....
Adams Rubble: We are returning full circle :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..like the fool card in tarot

Corvuscorva Nightfire: it reminds me that I am always new.

We begin to break up

Geo Netizen: Yes we are .... and I have to get ready to travel to a meeting
Scathach Rhiadra: I have to head off now, nice meeting you Korii, see you all soon:)
Udge Watanabe: and I really need to go for a walk.
Adams Rubble: Thanks for being here today Geo. Have a good meeting :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Udge, Geo.
Udge Watanabe: nice meeting you Korii, take care.
Geo Netizen: Again … a stimulating discussion that has provided food for thought to keep me occupied many days
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Scath
Korii Tiger: i have to go too.. Nice to meet you all.
Adams Rubble: and Scath and Udge too :)
Udge Watanabe: bye all, be happy and un-labelled
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Korrii
Geo Netizen: Thank you all
Adams Rubble: and Korii too :)
Adams Rubble: nice to meet you Korii. I love your wings
Udge Watanabe: bye for now.
Adams Rubble: bye Udge
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It was good to see you, today, Adams.
Adams Rubble: very good to see you today. have a good day :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: we said almost the same thing :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.