2009.02.15 13:00 - Emotions among us

The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers.

When I got to the Pavilion Wol was there and within several minutes several others joined the group.

Wol Euler: hello maxine, riddle
Riddle Sideways: hello
Maxine Walden: hi, Wol and Riddle
Maxine Walden: nice to see you both
Wol Euler: likewise :)
Riddle Sideways: yes

I noticed with curiosity and commented on the phrase above Wol's name in her balloon, which then began an interesting cascade of comment over the next few minutes

Maxine Walden: token dull person ! Wol?
Wol Euler: depends on the context ;-)
Riddle Sideways: Hi Adams
Maxine Walden: ah...hi, Adams
Wol Euler: I was just at a "wedding and collaring ceremony" at the church on a BDSM sim called Isle of Pain. Believe me, I was a very dull person indeed in that crowd!
Adams Rubble: Hello Riddle, maxine, Wol and Samuel :)
Wol Euler: hello adams
Adams Rubble: It sounds painful Wol
Riddle Sideways: hi samual
Wol Euler: it was. :-O
Maxine Walden: hi, Samuel and Wester
Wol Euler: but that is the appeal, apparently.
Samuel Okelly: hello every1 :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Wester and Scath :)
Riddle Sideways: and Wester
Wol Euler: not my scene, but one supports one's friends in their search for happiness ...
Wester Kiranov: hi everyone
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler: hello scath, wester, samuel

We seemd to be grappling with how we heard Wol's description and yet not be judgmental, but Riddle's focus on 'collaring' and Wol's description intensified some of our focus and reaction

Maxine Walden: ah, sounds a bit different from many searches for happiness that I have encountered
Riddle Sideways: collaring is an interesting word
Maxine Walden: hi Scath
Pila Mulligan is Online
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello everyone:)
Wol Euler chuckles.
Adams Rubble: Hello Pila :)
Maxine Walden: yes, thought so too, Riddle, collaring
Wol Euler: meant quite literally, riddle. Putting on a collar that cannot be removed except by the "pet"s owner.
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Adams Rubble grimacies and rubs her neck
Samuel Okelly: hi pila
Maxine Walden: oh, my!
Wol Euler: causes the pet to follow the owner, always being within X metres
Wol Euler: and gag her, prevent her from TPing ...
Wol Euler: there's a special viewer for that stuff called "restrained life"
Maxine Walden: sounds more and more grim
Adams Rubble: Not my idea of a second life :)
Wol Euler: nor mine, but I have to admit:
Riddle Sideways: to each their own
Wol Euler: as I sat in that church, I admired them for doing this.
Maxine Walden: does not sound very alive really, but enslaving...but that may be some folks view of life
Wol Euler: They have figured out what gives them happiness and pleasure, and have set out to get it.
Adams Rubble: Well better to pursure those kind of fantasies in a virtual world than a real one
Wol Euler: more power to their elbows and other pointy bits.
Wol Euler: hello pila
Pila Mulligan: :) sounded grim, even just hearing the end
Wol Euler: it would be grim indeed if it were involuntary, that is the crux of it.

Samuel raised some questions 

Samuel Okelly: are we right to believe they have really found true happiness/
Riddle Sideways: yes, if they both agree then who are we...
Wol Euler: I would not presume to judge that, sam.
Pila Mulligan: kind of illustrates a potential distinction between pleasure and happiness
Wol Euler: if they say that they have, then yes they have.
Adams Rubble: Well it's kind of a moot point for us I think :)
Wol Euler: I like broccoli, others prefer spinach. (shrugs)
Adams Rubble: Hello tarmel :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel
Wol Euler: morning tarmel!
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Maxine Walden: but it may point out how we so easily judge according to our values, and that can be a powerful incentive, our strong feelings
Maxine Walden: hi Tarmel
Riddle Sideways: hi scath, Pila, Tarmel
Samuel Okelly: hi tam
Tarmel Udimo: hi AL!
Riddle Sideways: Tarmel I just saw your house, very nice
Wol Euler: snap, I had just IMed the same :)
Samuel Okelly: In a society that propagates a secular relativistic viewpoint , moral cowardice thrives
Tarmel Udimo: Oh thanks blush, blush...
Pila Mulligan: sounds like a quote Sam :) is it?
Samuel Okelly: lol
Samuel Okelly: its one i just made up myself ;-)
Maxine Walden: a quote from Sam
Adams Rubble: /mde can't wait to see tarmel's house
Pila Mulligan: I haven't seen your house yet Tarmel, but hope to
Samuel Okelly: (trying to be provocative in a positive way)
Maxine Walden: sounds like everyone would like to see Tarmels house
Tarmel Udimo: don't worry all I will be having a house warming when Its finished! and of course all PaBbers are invited :-)

Seems like most wished to focus on gatherings rather than possible polemics

Pila Mulligan: thanks
Wol Euler cheers
Maxine Walden: another reason to have a party
Tarmel Udimo: yes!
Riddle Sideways: MORE PARTIES
Riddle Sideways: ah, but I wish the parties weren't midday on workdays
Tarmel Udimo: its based around trying to keep Storms wonderful landscapeing in full view at all times :-)
Riddle Sideways: I miss almost all Kira events
Maxine Walden: oh, Riddle?
Adams Rubble: Yes, me too Riddle
Tarmel Udimo: yes me some
Maxine Walden: oh yes, middle of the day

During a pause in the conversation I raised the question of PaB practices; Adams mentioned this morning's discussion (Feb 15, 7:00)  and we began a conversation about dropping painful emotions and patterns

Maxine Walden: any thoughts about PaB practices?
Adams Rubble: We had a wonderful session this morning on dropping :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Adams Rubble: I recommend reading it :)
Wol Euler smiles
Maxine Walden: shall do
Tarmel Udimo: will do
Riddle Sideways: later
Adams Rubble: Some of dealt with how we lean on other people for our needs instead of seeing them for what they are
Tarmel Udimo: that's a very good one
Maxine Walden: interesting, Adams
Adams Rubble: How important it is to drop those needs we think we have
Tarmel Udimo: yes in fact its what I came to yesterday
Adams Rubble: and be what we are rather than what we have
Adams Rubble smiles at Tarmel

Tarmel brought an example of her own painful emotion and how she is trying to handle it.  There then began an interesting conversation about pain and longings between parents and children, and several tried to respond to a questioning Samuel about what dropping of such emotions might really mean

Tarmel Udimo: when i was out on my walk and feeling very very sad about being 3000 miles away from my mum
Riddle Sideways: seems like a themefor PaB
Tarmel Udimo: who even though we spend alot of time on the phone and in SL and on skype I know she's waiting for me to come 'home'
Adams Rubble nods at tarmel
Wol Euler: yeah, parents never give up that hope
Tarmel Udimo: and I had to drop that need for me to be the good daughter and the need for me to always feel sad about my choice of living so far away
Adams Rubble nods again
Tarmel Udimo: well i know I will have to she is turing 80 in september, so its getting close
Tarmel Udimo: and I love her madly but yes I had to just let go and expereince the freedom of just walking
Wol Euler nods
Maxine Walden: and of being your individuasef
Maxine Walden: individual self
Adams Rubble: and love our parents just for what they are
Maxine Walden: with all their longings
Samuel Okelly: " I had to drop that need for me to be the good daughter and the need for me to always feel sad..." is it right for us to deny the honesty of our feelings and emotions?
Riddle Sideways: had same feelings. We live 3000 miles from parents
Tarmel Udimo: yes and that its okay for both of us to have sadness around the lost years of us being apart
Maxine Walden: or maybe, Sam, tohave thefeelings but not be pulled around by them
Pila Mulligan: conlficted emotions can resolve themselves, and then we feel at peace with them, eventually we may even feel great happiness with them
Adams Rubble: the greatest gift to a parent may be just to be accepted as a friend
Tarmel Udimo: no not denying samuel if anything looking at it very deeply and seeing it for waht it was
Wol Euler: perhaps it is one honest feeling among many other honest feelings?
Tarmel Udimo: acknowledging the sadness deeply
Tarmel Udimo: and being able to hold that and either decide to mve or not but that is seperate from carrying sadness
Maxine Walden: not being collared by our deeply felt feeings?
Tarmel Udimo: yes :-)
Maxine Walden: feelings
Riddle Sideways: acknowledge, drop, hang on, whatever. just not be crippled by it
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Adams Rubble: yes!

Pila's comment about asphyxiation of dark emotions caught my attention but the conversation did not pick directly up on it, but in general we were describing how to feel and not be swamped by difficult emotion.  Threading through this whole conversation Samuel asks about dropping emotion, positing that emotion is so much a part of our experience and who we are.  Different responses come to the minds of many conversants

Pila Mulligan: some of the most difficult worldy work involves transcending the asphyxiation of dark emotions
Tarmel Udimo: be active in the face of it
Riddle Sideways is also very sad that my daugther's 17th b-day is today and she is 10K miles away in Israel
Wol Euler nods. I'm sorry to hear it, Riddle
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Samuel Okelly: we can not know joy without knowing sadness
Riddle Sideways: can talk on phone, but...
Maxine Walden: difficult to be on both sides of longing and missing
Adams Rubble: yes
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Tarmel Udimo: its funny to hear people complain about their familes when they live next door :-)
Tarmel Udimo: but I think samuel this is more than the duality of emotions
Pila Mulligan: those may be different complaints :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes I know... I was being silly
Adams Rubble: It's funy to be a parent and be the object of the complaints. hehe
Riddle Sideways: yes
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehehe
Pila Mulligan: Tarmel, how do you mean it is more?
Riddle Sideways: to be stuck as both a parent and a child
Wester Kiranov: mine don't complain yetm, they just throw tantrums :-)
Maxine Walden: agreed, Adams
Samuel Okelly: sadness need not always be a dark emotion which holds us back if it can be something that will ultimately enrich us
Pila Mulligan: yes, it can be cleansing
Maxine Walden: agreed, Samuel
Tarmel Udimo: well yes that's my point - in the seeing of the emotions arising it becomes very clear
Riddle Sideways: that old cliche "what doesn't kilt you makes you stronger"
Riddle Sideways: but I dislike that
Maxine Walden: we all probably do, riddle
Pila Mulligan: isn't that the Scotch version Riddle?
Tarmel Udimo: that they are emotions (sure its much more fun to be 'feeling joyous' than feeling pain or sadness) but they are both made of the same stuff
Pila Mulligan: kilt :)
Wester Kiranov: :D
Riddle Sideways: :)
Wester Kiranov: i was wondering - is there really a difference between joy and sadness? Or are they just two aspects of the same thing?
Wester Kiranov: of course joy feels nicer...
Samuel Okelly: maybe a more healthy approach is to fully acknowledge and accept our difficulties for what they are in a deep sincere honesty
Tarmel Udimo: yes and then ?
Maxine Walden: Wester, what thoughts about being two aspects of the same emotion?
Wester Kiranov: not aspects of the same emotion - if you call them emotions they ARE different
Adams Rubble still looking for anyone talking about not accepting difficulties
Riddle Sideways: Feelings?
Wester Kiranov: more than two things that happen if you deal with the world in a certain way
Adams Rubble: We don;t identify with the feelings. We recognize them and drop them and move on
Riddle Sideways: and emotions? same?
Adams Rubble: yes, I think so. We can't help but have them. They well up in our bodies
Tarmel Udimo: or another way is to identify fully with the expereince of the emaotion in that is how it drops away

Samuel asks more specifically about dropping difficult emotions.

Samuel Okelly: "drop them", can you expand adams please?
Adams Rubble: but we can appreaciate their appearance
Adams Rubble: Yes, I have seen in the logs you are having trouble with that Samuel and I recognized my own difficulties until I understood
Riddle Sideways: and the difficulties are when we don't drop them or acknowledgethem
Adams Rubble: It is very simple but very hard to explain
Liam Bressig has ended the call.  You will now be reconnected to spatial voice chat.
Adams Rubble: But we do not want to identify with the these things we have
Adams Rubble: they are not us
Wester Kiranov: brb
Adams Rubble: The best I can explain it is that we know when we drop them
Tarmel Udimo: and perhaps its about recognizing where and why they originate
Adams Rubble: we feel a tremndous peace
Adams Rubble: It is then that we can best hear God
Adams Rubble: You must have had those times when you felt close to God
Adams Rubble: That is it...you have dropped all the rest
Samuel Okelly: i am still unsure as to what is meant by "dropping" the feelings
Adams Rubble: We drop all tht is not us
Samuel Okelly: if i feel an immense sadness for whatever reason.....
Wester Kiranov: back
Samuel Okelly: how is this "dropped"?
Adams Rubble: That sadness will separate you from God
Tarmel Udimo: well I didn;t start by dropping my sadness yesterday
Tarmel Udimo: what I did do was actually look at it wheile I was expereincing it
Riddle Sideways: if 'drop' is a hard word/concept... try 'set aside' or 'put off for now'
Adams Rubble: Yes tarmel. We can appreciate its pfresence
Tarmel Udimo: liam are you lost? would you like directions?
Scathach Rhiadra: or look at it and let it pass, don't cling to it
Adams Rubble: either, yes
Tarmel Udimo: yes dropping is a learnt word and diffilcult f
Adams Rubble: But not let iot overwhelm us
Tarmel Udimo: as it implies something else
Wol Euler: not let it become part of our identity.
Pila Mulligan: this is an interesting discussison, but a rl guest is arriving -- aloha everyone
Adams Rubble: bye Pila :)
Samuel Okelly: tc pila :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pila
Tarmel Udimo: se you pila
Maxine Walden: see you, Pila
Riddle Sideways: many bye pila
Tarmel Udimo: its diffilcult to drop an emotion when we have invested so much into it
Riddle Sideways: many emotions, memories, etc. that we HAVE can cripple us
Riddle Sideways: hold us to non-movment
Riddle Sideways: yet, there is no way seen to disspell them
Riddle Sideways: so just setthem aside for a little while
Riddle Sideways: try somethink different
Adams Rubble: yes Riddle
Riddle Sideways: they can be 'picked up' later
Samuel Okelly: how does this differ for being asked to deny them? (even for a short period)
Riddle Sideways: as in meditation
Riddle Sideways: stray thoughts can
Riddle Sideways: come
Adams Rubble: We don;t deny it Samuel. We just take it lightly
Riddle Sideways: yes, to try to deny is very hard
Tarmel Udimo: and not required
Riddle Sideways: to lighten up iseasier
Adams Rubble: and even the lightening is hard work :)
Riddle Sideways: we have long to-do lists in our lives
Riddle Sideways: add it to that list
Adams Rubble: :)
Riddle Sideways: then go on
Riddle Sideways: with an old item or something new
Riddle Sideways: oooo, but always promise it that you'll get back to it
Riddle Sideways: that is important
Adams Rubble: :)
Samuel Okelly: I am not sure how helpful it would be for me if I was feeling upset and someone told me (with the best of intentions no doubt) “Lighten up! Let it go!”
Adams Rubble: yes, like the needy child :)
Riddle Sideways: yes, I know
Adams Rubble: Samuel, no one can tell you...you must do it yourself
Wester Kiranov: It is hard to listen to reason when you're upset
Adams Rubble: KIt takes courage :)
Adams Rubble: *It
Samuel Okelly: emotions are not "reasonable"
Riddle Sideways: we share little things that we have experienced here
Tarmel Udimo: its diffilcult to do it in those moments samuel,
Adams Rubble: we learn it is stopping regualrlyevery 15 minutes :)
Tarmel Udimo: one first practises the 'dropping' with smaller ones until it becomes easier
Tarmel Udimo: yes as in PaB
Adams Rubble: *in
Riddle Sideways: yes, goodexample Adams
Scathach Rhiadra: stopping, dropping and just being
Riddle Sideways: we are busy busy bsuy then gong ... another 15 minutes have passed
Riddle Sideways: stop for 9-seconds
Riddle Sideways: then go back
Adams Rubble: let everything go
Riddle Sideways: if you want
Samuel Okelly: I am not convinced that shelving (no matter how temporary) our emotion is the best way for us to ultimately deal with them so we can go forward emotionaly
Tarmel Udimo: the just being bit is real important too as scath said :-)
Wol Euler: I feel that "letting go" and "dropping" do not mean throwing away.
Adams Rubble: Well you can't know until you've tried sameul :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes these words are tricky
Scathach Rhiadra nods @ Wol
Maxine Walden: care to say more, wol?
Wol Euler: what we drop is not the emotion, but the baggage of "I should's" that are attached to it.
Tarmel Udimo: agreed
Wol Euler: because emotions and thier causes are seldom pure.
Wol Euler: the sadness that I feel at my father's alzheimer's is mingled in with a large amount of rage, and grief, and the nagging feeling that I should be at home helping, and the fear that I will have to give his eulogy.

And Samuel's statement focusses thought and response once again

Samuel Okelly: Let us be clear here…, when we speak about our deep felt emotion, we are describing the very essence of the people we are..
Adams Rubble: No
Adams Rubble: Our emotion is what we have not what we are
Samuel Okelly: if i am sad then y sadness is part of me...
Riddle Sideways: and that is a very important (hard to understand) difference
Adams Rubble: You are not your emotion
Wol Euler: the sadness and anger that I feel are not my identity.
Wol Euler: I do not define myself as "a person who is sad"
Samuel Okelly: if i am happy my happiness is part of me (and ppl will be able to see this )
Adams Rubble: You have happiness
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, you experience emotions, are not them

One again I had to leave before the conversation seemed to be at an and.  And yet if we thing about it the conversation is always evolving so it may never be brought to closure.  

Maxine Walden: I have to go and will take the chatlog.If anything shouldbe added please send it along. This is and has been a wonderful discussion,I think