2009.02.15 13:00 - Emotions among us

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    The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers.

    When I got to the Pavilion Wol was there and within several minutes several others joined the group.

    Wol Euler: hello maxine, riddle
    Riddle Sideways: hello
    Maxine Walden: hi, Wol and Riddle
    Maxine Walden: nice to see you both
    Wol Euler: likewise :)
    Riddle Sideways: yes

    I noticed with curiosity and commented on the phrase above Wol's name in her balloon, which then began an interesting cascade of comment over the next few minutes

    Maxine Walden: token dull person ! Wol?
    Wol Euler: depends on the context ;-)
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Adams
    Maxine Walden: ah...hi, Adams
    Wol Euler: I was just at a "wedding and collaring ceremony" at the church on a BDSM sim called Isle of Pain. Believe me, I was a very dull person indeed in that crowd!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Riddle, maxine, Wol and Samuel :)
    Wol Euler: hello adams
    Adams Rubble: It sounds painful Wol
    Riddle Sideways: hi samual
    Wol Euler: it was. :-O
    Maxine Walden: hi, Samuel and Wester
    Wol Euler: but that is the appeal, apparently.
    Samuel Okelly: hello every1 :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Wester and Scath :)
    Riddle Sideways: and Wester
    Wol Euler: not my scene, but one supports one's friends in their search for happiness ...
    Wester Kiranov: hi everyone
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Wol Euler: hello scath, wester, samuel

    We seemd to be grappling with how we heard Wol's description and yet not be judgmental, but Riddle's focus on 'collaring' and Wol's description intensified some of our focus and reaction

    Maxine Walden: ah, sounds a bit different from many searches for happiness that I have encountered
    Riddle Sideways: collaring is an interesting word
    Maxine Walden: hi Scath
    Pila Mulligan is Online
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello everyone:)
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pila :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, thought so too, Riddle, collaring
    Wol Euler: meant quite literally, riddle. Putting on a collar that cannot be removed except by the "pet"s owner.
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Adams Rubble grimacies and rubs her neck
    Samuel Okelly: hi pila
    Maxine Walden: oh, my!
    Wol Euler: causes the pet to follow the owner, always being within X metres
    Wol Euler: and gag her, prevent her from TPing ...
    Wol Euler: there's a special viewer for that stuff called "restrained life"
    Maxine Walden: sounds more and more grim
    Adams Rubble: Not my idea of a second life :)
    Wol Euler: nor mine, but I have to admit:
    Riddle Sideways: to each their own
    Wol Euler: as I sat in that church, I admired them for doing this.
    Maxine Walden: does not sound very alive really, but enslaving...but that may be some folks view of life
    Wol Euler: They have figured out what gives them happiness and pleasure, and have set out to get it.
    Adams Rubble: Well better to pursure those kind of fantasies in a virtual world than a real one
    Wol Euler: more power to their elbows and other pointy bits.
    Wol Euler: hello pila
    Pila Mulligan: :) sounded grim, even just hearing the end
    Wol Euler: it would be grim indeed if it were involuntary, that is the crux of it.

    Samuel raised some questions 

    Samuel Okelly: are we right to believe they have really found true happiness/
    Riddle Sideways: yes, if they both agree then who are we...
    Wol Euler: I would not presume to judge that, sam.
    Pila Mulligan: kind of illustrates a potential distinction between pleasure and happiness
    Wol Euler: if they say that they have, then yes they have.
    Adams Rubble: Well it's kind of a moot point for us I think :)
    Wol Euler: I like broccoli, others prefer spinach. (shrugs)
    Adams Rubble: Hello tarmel :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel
    Wol Euler: morning tarmel!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
    Maxine Walden: but it may point out how we so easily judge according to our values, and that can be a powerful incentive, our strong feelings
    Maxine Walden: hi Tarmel
    Riddle Sideways: hi scath, Pila, Tarmel
    Samuel Okelly: hi tam
    Tarmel Udimo: hi AL!
    Riddle Sideways: Tarmel I just saw your house, very nice
    Wol Euler: snap, I had just IMed the same :)
    Samuel Okelly: In a society that propagates a secular relativistic viewpoint , moral cowardice thrives
    Tarmel Udimo: Oh thanks blush, blush...
    Pila Mulligan: sounds like a quote Sam :) is it?
    Samuel Okelly: lol
    Samuel Okelly: its one i just made up myself ;-)
    Maxine Walden: a quote from Sam
    Adams Rubble: /mde can't wait to see tarmel's house
    Pila Mulligan: I haven't seen your house yet Tarmel, but hope to
    Samuel Okelly: (trying to be provocative in a positive way)
    Maxine Walden: sounds like everyone would like to see Tarmels house
    Tarmel Udimo: don't worry all I will be having a house warming when Its finished! and of course all PaBbers are invited :-)

    Seems like most wished to focus on gatherings rather than possible polemics

    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Wol Euler cheers
    Maxine Walden: another reason to have a party
    Tarmel Udimo: yes!
    Riddle Sideways: MORE PARTIES
    Riddle Sideways: ah, but I wish the parties weren't midday on workdays
    Tarmel Udimo: its based around trying to keep Storms wonderful landscapeing in full view at all times :-)
    Riddle Sideways: I miss almost all Kira events
    Maxine Walden: oh, Riddle?
    Adams Rubble: Yes, me too Riddle
    Tarmel Udimo: yes me some
    Maxine Walden: oh yes, middle of the day

    During a pause in the conversation I raised the question of PaB practices; Adams mentioned this morning's discussion (Feb 15, 7:00)  and we began a conversation about dropping painful emotions and patterns

    Maxine Walden: any thoughts about PaB practices?
    Adams Rubble: We had a wonderful session this morning on dropping :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Adams Rubble: I recommend reading it :)
    Wol Euler smiles
    Maxine Walden: shall do
    Tarmel Udimo: will do
    Riddle Sideways: later
    Adams Rubble: Some of dealt with how we lean on other people for our needs instead of seeing them for what they are
    Tarmel Udimo: that's a very good one
    Maxine Walden: interesting, Adams
    Adams Rubble: How important it is to drop those needs we think we have
    Tarmel Udimo: yes in fact its what I came to yesterday
    Adams Rubble: and be what we are rather than what we have
    Adams Rubble smiles at Tarmel

    Tarmel brought an example of her own painful emotion and how she is trying to handle it.  There then began an interesting conversation about pain and longings between parents and children, and several tried to respond to a questioning Samuel about what dropping of such emotions might really mean

    Tarmel Udimo: when i was out on my walk and feeling very very sad about being 3000 miles away from my mum
    Riddle Sideways: seems like a themefor PaB
    Tarmel Udimo: who even though we spend alot of time on the phone and in SL and on skype I know she's waiting for me to come 'home'
    Adams Rubble nods at tarmel
    Wol Euler: yeah, parents never give up that hope
    Tarmel Udimo: and I had to drop that need for me to be the good daughter and the need for me to always feel sad about my choice of living so far away
    Adams Rubble nods again
    Tarmel Udimo: well i know I will have to she is turing 80 in september, so its getting close
    Tarmel Udimo: and I love her madly but yes I had to just let go and expereince the freedom of just walking
    Wol Euler nods
    Maxine Walden: and of being your individuasef
    Maxine Walden: individual self
    Adams Rubble: and love our parents just for what they are
    Maxine Walden: with all their longings
    Samuel Okelly: " I had to drop that need for me to be the good daughter and the need for me to always feel sad..." is it right for us to deny the honesty of our feelings and emotions?
    Riddle Sideways: had same feelings. We live 3000 miles from parents
    Tarmel Udimo: yes and that its okay for both of us to have sadness around the lost years of us being apart
    Maxine Walden: or maybe, Sam, tohave thefeelings but not be pulled around by them
    Pila Mulligan: conlficted emotions can resolve themselves, and then we feel at peace with them, eventually we may even feel great happiness with them
    Adams Rubble: the greatest gift to a parent may be just to be accepted as a friend
    Tarmel Udimo: no not denying samuel if anything looking at it very deeply and seeing it for waht it was
    Wol Euler: perhaps it is one honest feeling among many other honest feelings?
    Tarmel Udimo: acknowledging the sadness deeply
    Tarmel Udimo: and being able to hold that and either decide to mve or not but that is seperate from carrying sadness
    Maxine Walden: not being collared by our deeply felt feeings?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes :-)
    Maxine Walden: feelings
    Riddle Sideways: acknowledge, drop, hang on, whatever. just not be crippled by it
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Adams Rubble: yes!

    Pila's comment about asphyxiation of dark emotions caught my attention but the conversation did not pick directly up on it, but in general we were describing how to feel and not be swamped by difficult emotion.  Threading through this whole conversation Samuel asks about dropping emotion, positing that emotion is so much a part of our experience and who we are.  Different responses come to the minds of many conversants

    Pila Mulligan: some of the most difficult worldy work involves transcending the asphyxiation of dark emotions
    Tarmel Udimo: be active in the face of it
    Riddle Sideways is also very sad that my daugther's 17th b-day is today and she is 10K miles away in Israel
    Wol Euler nods. I'm sorry to hear it, Riddle
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Samuel Okelly: we can not know joy without knowing sadness
    Riddle Sideways: can talk on phone, but...
    Maxine Walden: difficult to be on both sides of longing and missing
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: its funny to hear people complain about their familes when they live next door :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: but I think samuel this is more than the duality of emotions
    Pila Mulligan: those may be different complaints :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I know... I was being silly
    Adams Rubble: It's funy to be a parent and be the object of the complaints. hehe
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehehehe
    Pila Mulligan: Tarmel, how do you mean it is more?
    Riddle Sideways: to be stuck as both a parent and a child
    Wester Kiranov: mine don't complain yetm, they just throw tantrums :-)
    Maxine Walden: agreed, Adams
    Samuel Okelly: sadness need not always be a dark emotion which holds us back if it can be something that will ultimately enrich us
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it can be cleansing
    Maxine Walden: agreed, Samuel
    Tarmel Udimo: well yes that's my point - in the seeing of the emotions arising it becomes very clear
    Riddle Sideways: that old cliche "what doesn't kilt you makes you stronger"
    Riddle Sideways: but I dislike that
    Maxine Walden: we all probably do, riddle
    Pila Mulligan: isn't that the Scotch version Riddle?
    Tarmel Udimo: that they are emotions (sure its much more fun to be 'feeling joyous' than feeling pain or sadness) but they are both made of the same stuff
    Pila Mulligan: kilt :)
    Wester Kiranov: :D
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Wester Kiranov: i was wondering - is there really a difference between joy and sadness? Or are they just two aspects of the same thing?
    Wester Kiranov: of course joy feels nicer...
    Samuel Okelly: maybe a more healthy approach is to fully acknowledge and accept our difficulties for what they are in a deep sincere honesty
    Tarmel Udimo: yes and then ?
    Maxine Walden: Wester, what thoughts about being two aspects of the same emotion?
    Wester Kiranov: not aspects of the same emotion - if you call them emotions they ARE different
    Adams Rubble still looking for anyone talking about not accepting difficulties
    Riddle Sideways: Feelings?
    Wester Kiranov: more than two things that happen if you deal with the world in a certain way
    Adams Rubble: We don;t identify with the feelings. We recognize them and drop them and move on
    Riddle Sideways: and emotions? same?
    Adams Rubble: yes, I think so. We can't help but have them. They well up in our bodies
    Tarmel Udimo: or another way is to identify fully with the expereince of the emaotion in that is how it drops away

    Samuel asks more specifically about dropping difficult emotions.

    Samuel Okelly: "drop them", can you expand adams please?
    Adams Rubble: but we can appreaciate their appearance
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I have seen in the logs you are having trouble with that Samuel and I recognized my own difficulties until I understood
    Riddle Sideways: and the difficulties are when we don't drop them or acknowledgethem
    Adams Rubble: It is very simple but very hard to explain
    Liam Bressig has ended the call.  You will now be reconnected to spatial voice chat.
    Adams Rubble: But we do not want to identify with the these things we have
    Adams Rubble: they are not us
    Wester Kiranov: brb
    Adams Rubble: The best I can explain it is that we know when we drop them
    Tarmel Udimo: and perhaps its about recognizing where and why they originate
    Adams Rubble: we feel a tremndous peace
    Adams Rubble: It is then that we can best hear God
    Adams Rubble: You must have had those times when you felt close to God
    Adams Rubble: That is it...you have dropped all the rest
    Samuel Okelly: i am still unsure as to what is meant by "dropping" the feelings
    Adams Rubble: We drop all tht is not us
    Samuel Okelly: if i feel an immense sadness for whatever reason.....
    Wester Kiranov: back
    Samuel Okelly: how is this "dropped"?
    Adams Rubble: That sadness will separate you from God
    Tarmel Udimo: well I didn;t start by dropping my sadness yesterday
    Tarmel Udimo: what I did do was actually look at it wheile I was expereincing it
    Riddle Sideways: if 'drop' is a hard word/concept... try 'set aside' or 'put off for now'
    Adams Rubble: Yes tarmel. We can appreciate its pfresence
    Tarmel Udimo: liam are you lost? would you like directions?
    Scathach Rhiadra: or look at it and let it pass, don't cling to it
    Adams Rubble: either, yes
    Tarmel Udimo: yes dropping is a learnt word and diffilcult f
    Adams Rubble: But not let iot overwhelm us
    Tarmel Udimo: as it implies something else
    Wol Euler: not let it become part of our identity.
    Pila Mulligan: this is an interesting discussison, but a rl guest is arriving -- aloha everyone
    Adams Rubble: bye Pila :)
    Samuel Okelly: tc pila :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pila
    Tarmel Udimo: se you pila
    Maxine Walden: see you, Pila
    Riddle Sideways: many bye pila
    Tarmel Udimo: its diffilcult to drop an emotion when we have invested so much into it
    Riddle Sideways: many emotions, memories, etc. that we HAVE can cripple us
    Riddle Sideways: hold us to non-movment
    Riddle Sideways: yet, there is no way seen to disspell them
    Riddle Sideways: so just setthem aside for a little while
    Riddle Sideways: try somethink different
    Adams Rubble: yes Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: they can be 'picked up' later
    Samuel Okelly: how does this differ for being asked to deny them? (even for a short period)
    Riddle Sideways: as in meditation
    Riddle Sideways: stray thoughts can
    Riddle Sideways: come
    Adams Rubble: We don;t deny it Samuel. We just take it lightly
    Riddle Sideways: yes, to try to deny is very hard
    Tarmel Udimo: and not required
    Riddle Sideways: to lighten up iseasier
    Adams Rubble: and even the lightening is hard work :)
    Riddle Sideways: we have long to-do lists in our lives
    Riddle Sideways: add it to that list
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Riddle Sideways: then go on
    Riddle Sideways: with an old item or something new
    Riddle Sideways: oooo, but always promise it that you'll get back to it
    Riddle Sideways: that is important
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Samuel Okelly: I am not sure how helpful it would be for me if I was feeling upset and someone told me (with the best of intentions no doubt) “Lighten up! Let it go!”
    Adams Rubble: yes, like the needy child :)
    Riddle Sideways: yes, I know
    Adams Rubble: Samuel, no one can tell you...you must do it yourself
    Wester Kiranov: It is hard to listen to reason when you're upset
    Adams Rubble: KIt takes courage :)
    Adams Rubble: *It
    Samuel Okelly: emotions are not "reasonable"
    Riddle Sideways: we share little things that we have experienced here
    Tarmel Udimo: its diffilcult to do it in those moments samuel,
    Adams Rubble: we learn it is stopping regualrlyevery 15 minutes :)
    Tarmel Udimo: one first practises the 'dropping' with smaller ones until it becomes easier
    Tarmel Udimo: yes as in PaB
    Adams Rubble: *in
    Riddle Sideways: yes, goodexample Adams
    Scathach Rhiadra: stopping, dropping and just being
    Riddle Sideways: we are busy busy bsuy then gong ... another 15 minutes have passed
    Riddle Sideways: stop for 9-seconds
    Riddle Sideways: then go back
    Adams Rubble: let everything go
    Riddle Sideways: if you want
    Samuel Okelly: I am not convinced that shelving (no matter how temporary) our emotion is the best way for us to ultimately deal with them so we can go forward emotionaly
    Tarmel Udimo: the just being bit is real important too as scath said :-)
    Wol Euler: I feel that "letting go" and "dropping" do not mean throwing away.
    Adams Rubble: Well you can't know until you've tried sameul :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes these words are tricky
    Scathach Rhiadra nods @ Wol
    Maxine Walden: care to say more, wol?
    Wol Euler: what we drop is not the emotion, but the baggage of "I should's" that are attached to it.
    Tarmel Udimo: agreed
    Wol Euler: because emotions and thier causes are seldom pure.
    Wol Euler: the sadness that I feel at my father's alzheimer's is mingled in with a large amount of rage, and grief, and the nagging feeling that I should be at home helping, and the fear that I will have to give his eulogy.

    And Samuel's statement focusses thought and response once again

    Samuel Okelly: Let us be clear here…, when we speak about our deep felt emotion, we are describing the very essence of the people we are..
    Adams Rubble: No
    Adams Rubble: Our emotion is what we have not what we are
    Samuel Okelly: if i am sad then y sadness is part of me...
    Riddle Sideways: and that is a very important (hard to understand) difference
    Adams Rubble: You are not your emotion
    Wol Euler: the sadness and anger that I feel are not my identity.
    Wol Euler: I do not define myself as "a person who is sad"
    Samuel Okelly: if i am happy my happiness is part of me (and ppl will be able to see this )
    Adams Rubble: You have happiness
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, you experience emotions, are not them

    One again I had to leave before the conversation seemed to be at an and.  And yet if we thing about it the conversation is always evolving so it may never be brought to closure.  

    Maxine Walden: I have to go and will take the chatlog.If anything shouldbe added please send it along. This is and has been a wonderful discussion,I think
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