2009.02.17 19:00 - How many selves do we have?

The Guardian for this meeting was Tarmel Udimo. The comments are by her. When i got there Adelene was there.

Adelene Dawner: Hi, Tarmel :)
Tarmel Udimo: hey there adelene:-)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Tarmel Udimo: how are things?
Adelene Dawner: Not bad. I'm a bit annoyed at something I found out today, but, hey, that's life.
Tarmel Udimo: in SL or RL?
Adelene Dawner: RL.
Tarmel Udimo: personal or work related?
Adelene Dawner: Personal. You *could* just ask me what it is, yanno. ^.-
Tarmel Udimo: well i am leaving room for you to offer -)
Adelene Dawner: I checked up on my ex-BF today, just to see how he's doing, 'cause I was a bit worried about his financial state. Come to find out that the booger has gone and gotten himself another roommate, after I had to put up with three years of listening to how he was doign me *such* a favor by letting me live there when he wasn't allowed to have a roommate and he was riskign getting into *so* much trouble if 'they' found out.
Tarmel Udimo: yikes, the bugger indeed, that would really piss me off too.
Adelene Dawner: I don't mind him having a roommate. But I take poorly to lies and hypocracy.
Tarmel Udimo: we are in total agreement about that one
Tarmel Udimo: and I believe you had mentioned that he really didn't want you to leave
Adelene Dawner: Yeah... that was a pretty complicated kind of mess. Hi, Doug.

Then Doug dropped by, followed by Susi, Pila and Adams and a new person, Siri.

Tarmel Udimo: hi doug

doug Sosa: hi ho
Tarmel Udimo: hummm sounds a little like passive agressive revenge:-)
Adelene Dawner: If it is, he's cutting off his nose to spite his face.
Adelene Dawner: Doug: [18:58] Adelene Dawner: I checked up on my ex-BF today, just to see how he's doing, 'cause I was a bit worried about his financial state. Come to find out that the booger has gone and gotten himself another roommate, after I had to put up with three years of listening to how he was doign me *such* a favor by letting me live there when he wasn't allowed to have a roommate and he was riskign getting into *so* much trouble if 'they' found out.
Tarmel Udimo: always in those situations
Adelene Dawner: Makes my life easier, though.
Tarmel Udimo: yes? less guilt?
Adelene Dawner: Something like that. I take promises *very* seriously, and I had (before we were even dating, while we were just friends) promised to keep an eye on him, look out for him, that kind of thing... pretty dumb, on my part, but I did, and I've actually been pondering how I can keep those promises in this situation...
Adelene Dawner: But as of right now, my being around him is not at all in *his* best interests, so it makes that decision a lot easier.
Tarmel Udimo: yes
doug Sosa: so complex, these dramas we live.
Tarmel Udimo: hi siri
Tarmel Udimo: please join us
Tarmel Udimo: have you been here before?
Tarmel Udimo: hey susi!
Siri Solo: hello tarmel, no this is my first visit
Susi Alcott: hi Tarmel
Siri Solo: thank you for welcoming me
Susi Alcott: Hi Ade
doug Sosa: yes, and from me too, welcome.
Susi Alcott: Hi Siri
Tarmel Udimo: hey pila
Siri Solo: susi hello, good to meet you.
Pila Mulligan: greetings everyone
Susi Alcott: hi doug
Adelene Dawner: Hi, those who are just showing up.
Susi Alcott: hi Pila
Tarmel Udimo: siri can I give you a notecard about what we do here?
Siri Solo: yes i would like that very much, thank you for asking before hand.
Siri Solo: ~smiles~
Tarmel Udimo: well adelene the problem with making those promises and we all do them is they seem to last for livetimes so we need to be careful
Adelene Dawner: Yep. I've learned that lesson. I stoped making that kind of promise a few years ago.
Siri Solo: thank you for the notecard
Tarmel Udimo: yw
Adelene Dawner: I come close, but 'I will always' is a *bad* set of words.
Adelene Dawner: Corvi!
Tarmel Udimo: these are words like should, must, never
Tarmel Udimo: hey corvi!
Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi
Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
Tarmel Udimo: getting a nice little crowd tonight :-)
Susi Alcott: HI Cor
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all..*scritches Ade's head*
Tarmel Udimo: and adams
Susi Alcott: hi Adams
Adelene Dawner: *purrrrrrrrrrr*
Adams Rubble: hello everyone :)

I then thought it was time to launch into PaB perhaps... and then we had a lot of whirling around the word 'self'.

Tarmel Udimo: got any hot topics anyone?

Tarmel Udimo: hi adams
Susi Alcott: self :)
Susi Alcott: (hot topic)
Pila Mulligan: self as a topic Susi?
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh yes
Tarmel Udimo: self as being?
Pila Mulligan: self as Self
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Pila Mulligan: I'm often wrong on thigs like this, but I think Self is one of the points where Buddhism diverged from Hinduism
Pila Mulligan: re: Atman
Tarmel Udimo: okay
Corvuscorva Nightfire: what's atman?
Tarmel Udimo: in what way pila?
Pila Mulligan: Atman is a Hindu word that refers to the great soul of all being, so to speak -- allbeings Soul
Pila Mulligan: and Buddhism didn't not take on that part of its neighboring religion
doug Sosa: why does the "self" question come up,Susi?
Susi Alcott: just rose
doug Sosa: like a burp?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
Pila Mulligan: reminds me of the song Love is a Rose
Pila Mulligan: 'Love is a rose but your better not pick it'
Pila Mulligan: I always like to sing it with nose
Tarmel Udimo: you're funny pila
Tarmel Udimo: makes me wander what it would be like before self realised there was a self?
Pila Mulligan: it mayhave been that very realization that led self to creat somethging it could refer to
Tarmel Udimo: were there humnas wandering around without thoughts and awareness?
Tarmel Udimo: or was there always this?
Pila Mulligan: this univerese appaers to have a finite starting point
Susi Alcott: brb
Tarmel Udimo: we have a need for this to be so
Tarmel Udimo: see you susi
Pila Mulligan: could the awareness of self have preceded the starting point of the universe
Pila Mulligan: i.e., mind creates matter
Corvuscorva Nightfire: are we certian that it realizes a self?
Tarmel Udimo: all good questions, any thoughts
Pila Mulligan: Corvi, the 'it' that realizes is ______?
Tarmel Udimo: susi: 19:19] Pila Mulligan: could the awareness of self have preceded the starting point of the universe [19:19] Pila Mulligan: i.e., mind creates matter [19:19] Corvuscorva Nightfire: are we certian that it realizes a self? [19:19] Tarmel Udimo: all good questions, any thoughts
Pila Mulligan: ah -- mind resalizes, sorry
Susi Alcott: that if matter relezes ?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks, Tarmel.
Pila Mulligan: yes, thanks
Susi Alcott: well...spirit can reveal itself only in and throug the matter ...
doug Sosa: Again I'd pay more attention to the moment when the self question just arose. To me self is the mysteyr of all of me and all of the world (also as obscure as self) matched at every point.
Tarmel Udimo: what do you mean doug?
Susi Alcott: how hard it can know one's self, what that 'tinally' is
Susi Alcott: or should it been said 'it'
doug Sosa: gad, I don't know, beyond what I wrote. Susi said "it just rose", which i assumed was not a pun.
Susi Alcott: dont know the word 'pun'
Adams Rubble: a pun is a play on words Susi
Susi Alcott: ah
doug Sosa: rose as in arose and as in a rose
Pila Mulligan: using two words that sound alike and have a humorous connection
Susi Alcott: that I cannot do ...have no sence of humore and english is not my language
Susi Alcott: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
doug Sosa: a rose by any other name is still a rose
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's enough for me to enjoy the puns of others.
Susi Alcott: but yes; liked to see what my fingers typed
Tarmel Udimo: you just made a slightly humourous statement susi :-)
Susi Alcott: but realized that rose not before I read it
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
doug Sosa: i must go ,quietly. byt.
Susi Alcott: sad
Tarmel Udimo: I'm still curious as to what doug was trying to say
Tarmel Udimo: opps gone!
Susi Alcott: hm
Susi Alcott: I try to find words
Susi Alcott: that's not easy even I think I know what doug ment
Adams Rubble: I think he was wondering why Susi brought up "self"
Susi Alcott: having the same prob with myeself
Tarmel Udimo: yes thats waht i thought but then it sounded like something else
Pila Mulligan: well, i tihnk the mid recognizes a self :)
Adams Rubble: he aded his own definition of wht it meant to him
Susi Alcott: he did wander that too
Pila Mulligan: mind*
Susi Alcott: well
Susi Alcott: sometimes there's a person present who's question I 'hear'
Susi Alcott: and the words just rise
Tarmel Udimo: well we adelene had been tlaking about self before you came :-)
Susi Alcott: thinking that doug has not yet got peace with the so called prob to know what he's self is
Susi Alcott: ah
Susi Alcott: ok
Susi Alcott: that's explonation
Pila Mulligan: so Susi was sensing the prior dicussion maybe
Susi Alcott: yes
Susi Alcott: that happenes now and then
Pila Mulligan: what aspect were you talking about earlier, Tarmel?
Susi Alcott: so now we don't need to wonder anymore why that word rose :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Tarmel Udimo: humm went back to read about the apperance of self and universe and it does make sense that by becoming aware of self the universe came into being
Pila Mulligan: some peolle belve that was the sequence, Tarmel
Pila Mulligan: mind created matter
Pila Mulligan: some think matter creates mind
Tarmel Udimo: which makes some kind of sense :-)
Susi Alcott: may I try to answer ---kind of behaf of doug---that not-knowing-onesel's self
Adams Rubble: I must go. Good night all :0
Pila Mulligan: bye Adams
Tarmel Udimo: see you adams

When Adams left Threedee joined us and we continued to swirl around the 'self'.

Pila Mulligan: hi threedee

Susi Alcott: even what I now have in my mind is kind of part of that only
Susi Alcott: see you Adams
Tarmel Udimo: hi 3D
Threedee Shepherd: hello
Adelene Dawner: *purrrrrrrrr*
Susi Alcott: there was this man who one's aksed from me; "Do we have own feelings/motions at all ? "
Corvuscorva Nightfire reaches over ADe to scritch Three's head.
Susi Alcott: I said yes
Adelene Dawner flicks her wing up to tip Corvi between herself and Three.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ *purrrrr*
Susi Alcott: I can understand that many people can recieve so strongly other people's feelings and motions that may not even occure to one's mind that they are not own
Tarmel Udimo: feeling a whole lot of love over here beside me :-0
Tarmel Udimo: :-)
Susi Alcott: that htey have not risen from one's own self
Tarmel Udimo: yes I think this is true for some people susi
Pila Mulligan: I agree, not that it is obliterating the personal sense but confusing it
Susi Alcott: so then it's even more difficult to know 'self'
Tarmel Udimo: hummm
Tarmel Udimo: thanks heavens thats not one of us:-)
Susi Alcott: as it's on the other hand also so , that from what ever they come into oneself' they turn to be oneself's own too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: say that again? I didn't understand.
Susi Alcott: when ever we feel anything, that is our feeling, no matter if it's received from somebody else
Susi Alcott: we still need to deal with it
Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok..THAT I got.
Tarmel Udimo: me too:-)
Susi Alcott: so maybe you know understand what doug ment
Pila Mulligan: earlier doug said, " To me self is the mysteyr of all of me and all of the world (also as obscure as self) matched at every point."
Susi Alcott: but that I cannot know if he's thought that he recieves that way too...
Susi Alcott: yes
Susi Alcott: that's why I 'confermed' myself to belive that I undertood what he ment
Tarmel Udimo: I thought that meant that whatever arises is self and nothing else
Susi Alcott: (got the feeling from him) but I always miss words to be more sure
Susi Alcott: otherwise it can happen like that 'self' :))))
Tarmel Udimo: its okay I think we all got something even squee:-)
Susi Alcott: there is many times need to notice if something has risen from oneelf or received
Susi Alcott: and I've learned that it's not any easy always
Susi Alcott: but that there is the difference
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Susi Alcott: but one needs surely understand 'few' things to 'see' the difference
Corvuscorva Nightfire: honestly..that sounds like what I am calling "boundary issues" in myself...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that solving them..seems to be about seeing clearly what is arising where.
Susi Alcott: thinking I've learned that word already
Susi Alcott: _/!\_ >Cor
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks, Susi.
Pila Mulligan: meditation schools sometimes refer to emptiness as an attainment related to successful practice -- to me this topic relates to how I see that idea of emptiness -- that is, we are not saturated with thoughts, from within and without, so our perception is called empty (quiet, still, peaceful)
Susi Alcott: or silence :)
Pila Mulligan: yes
Threedee Shepherd: Whatever the trigger, inside or out, the thought is inside self
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, thoughtfully..then grins.

Then Corvi brought up the idea of 'memes'. But we also kept coming back to self, and I started to get silly - everytime someone brought their ideas back full circle to 'self' I gave them points.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: and sometimes..i'm very pleased at the memes which land here.

Pila Mulligan: Corvi, you told me once what meme means, but i forgoet, will you say it again please?
Threedee Shepherd: We never know "what lands" only what we think lands
Pila Mulligan: what does meme mean?
Susi Alcott: or feel
Susi Alcott: the less expertations the more open we are to receive
Threedee Shepherd: I have no independent way of knowing "anything" because everything that reaches my brain is filtered by my brain-body and interpreted.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: a meme is an idea..jumping from one person to another.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or one culture to another.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: like a virus sneezed.
Susi Alcott: interpreted = ?
Tarmel Udimo: hummm didn't know that word - thanks
Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
Tarmel Udimo: ty ade
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: all words are symbols, not the thing, thus how I take a symbol to mean anything is an interpretation.
Susi Alcott: ty 3D
Pila Mulligan: found it -- a unit or element of cultural ideas, symbols or practices
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Tarmel Udimo: yes happens in creative circles as well, often various people discover they are working on simliar ideas on opposite sides of the globe
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
Susi Alcott: you 3D seem to have huge bright brain yes and that's why I understand your sayiing
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or...a bunch of people will have the meme of "self" arising at the same time.
Susi Alcott: but when the receiving is from very wide area, it's quite hard to human brain to analyze all but using 'heart'
Tarmel Udimo: bring it home full circle corvi :-) points to you
Susi Alcott: _/!\_>Cor
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes, I agree, Susi..we use a much deeper part of our mind to analyze and bring together ideas into understanding.
Tarmel Udimo: that's a good one squee
Corvuscorva Nightfire: something deeper than what we call"conscious mind" but still our minds, I think.
Susi Alcott: .....and then the words just rise :)
Tarmel Udimo: hummm points to susi too another completed circle :-)
Tarmel Udimo: forgive me I am being silly
Susi Alcott: ?
Susi Alcott: now Susi does not understand Tarmel at all...
Tarmel Udimo: like basket ball, scoring points
Susi Alcott: smiles
Susi Alcott: all is well
Tarmel Udimo: good
Pila Mulligan: I rode over to the Volcanoes National Park, nearby, just before this session, and said hi to the volcano -- now there's something that helps put one's self in persepctive, watching a primal part of the planet give birth to more of itself
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins..a nice play, Tarmel.
Tarmel Udimo: ty
Tarmel Udimo: wow that's deep pila
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Pila Mulligan: similar to the sense found in stanidng quiety under a night sky full of stars, but more active
Tarmel Udimo: and would have been amazing to see
Tarmel Udimo: yes just a wee bit more active pila :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: the thing I noticed driving home is how on a cloudy day like this the volcano steam and the clouds merge at a boundary where they become indistinguishable
Pila Mulligan: clouds rising from below meet clouds fomring form above
Pila Mulligan: seemd interesting as a perceptio
Pila Mulligan: like a booundary question
Tarmel Udimo: yes it is
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ka thunk, Pila.
Tarmel Udimo: and pila now scores!
Pila Mulligan: 'Love is your nose but you better not pick it ...." (singing)
Tarmel Udimo: hahahahahaha
Threedee Shepherd: sorry, away for a moment for phone--thant you Susi
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.

Tarmel Udimo: Unfortunately I am in the middle of an RL day, must go back to work
Threedee Shepherd: bye Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: will the log still have everything
Adelene Dawner: Yep.
Pila Mulligan: have a nice Oz afternoonTarmel
Susi Alcott: wb Cor
Tarmel Udimo: opps
Pila Mulligan: wb Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks
Tarmel Udimo: you're back and I am leaving sorry corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Tarmel.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Tarmel Udimo: see you later folks... bye to all
Pila Mulligan: Susi, so as not to confuse, Oz is how some Australians refer to Australia
Susi Alcott: aha :)
Susi Alcott: ty
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: close
Threedee Shepherd: Pila I lived in Australia 1969-71 and never learned that about Oz.
Pila Mulligan: really :)
Pila Mulligan: how did you like it?
Threedee Shepherd: very much
Pila Mulligan: my neighbor here is from there
Pila Mulligan: very strong personalities there it seems
Pila Mulligan: lots of memes
Pila Mulligan: :)
Threedee Shepherd: Try to parse that last sentence in the abstract: my neighbor here is form there
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Pila Mulligan: well, time is realtive, so space must be similar
Pila Mulligan: my neighbor's father's name was Ozzie and that was how i learned of the nckname - apparently form Aussie
Pila Mulligan: nickname
Susi Alcott: Aussie is familiar to me and it sounds sure near like oz :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, especially when said by an Australian :)
Pila Mulligan: Tarmel uses Oz sometimes in SL
Pila Mulligan: to refer to her home
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Susi Alcott: somebody got homesick ?
Pila Mulligan: I believe that is where she is now
Pila Mulligan: she misses her mother, she said (her mother in Canada)
Susi Alcott: but here....some of you here ?
Pila Mulligan: oh,'escuse me
Pila Mulligan: sensing things Susi?
Susi Alcott: yes
Susi Alcott: but cannot be sure if the person is present so I asked
Pila Mulligan: not me
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Susi Alcott: thinking all knows the song 'Exodus' ?
Pila Mulligan: should, but can't hum it now, for some reason
Susi Alcott: started to play inside my self :)
Susi Alcott: 'this land is mine
Susi Alcott: god gave this land to me
Susi Alcott: ...
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Adelene Dawner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFUdKve0dkc
Pila Mulligan: thanks Ade
Adelene Dawner: (I don't know that I've ever heard this before.)
Susi Alcott: you listening it now ?
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: really, you had not heard the song Ade?
Pila Mulligan: when was the moive - 30 years ago?
Adelene Dawner: I know, I live under a rock. I like it here. ^.-
Susi Alcott: more
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe someone ought to script the SL onigoko dance to Hava Nagila
Susi Alcott: ahhhhhhh
Adelene Dawner: what, the...
Adelene Dawner: onigokko
Adelene Dawner: ?
Adelene Dawner: I have one, Pila, thanks. This av doesn't do human anims well.
Susi Alcott: think that it shall never loose it's magic either
Pila Mulligan: I have never done it, someone gave it to me, but too few resources
Adelene Dawner: aw :(
Pila Mulligan: fun to watch
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: I need to go do some work that needs to be delivered tomorrow, so I will say g'night folks
Pila Mulligan: bye Threedee
Corvuscorva Nightfire: gnight, Three.
Adelene Dawner: I should really go too.
Pila Mulligan: bye Adelene
Adelene Dawner: Cya, Pila. Corvi, Susi.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye all, bedtime here.
Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Pila Mulligan: may as well turn off the chat log