2009.02.09 13:00 - Relaxing Judgement

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    The meeting concentrated on the single issue of how to conduct the 9-seconds practice, and what it means to let go of judgment as an essential part of that practice. Pema and Samuel started this discussion, but the other participants also contributed important suggestions and perspectives. The result was a general meditation on the nature of PaB practice and, to some extent, how it compares with more traditional approaches.

    Stim Morane: Pema

    Pema Pera: Hi Stim!

    Pema Pera: Do you know about how to get the chat log?

    Pema Pera: from the autorecorder?

    Stim Morane: no

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Pema:)

    Stim Morane: Hi Scathach

    Pema Pera: Hi Scath!

    Pema Pera: Click on the base of the fountain and choose "claim"

    Pema Pera: Hi Wol

    Wol Euler: hello pema, stim, scath

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol:)

    Pema Pera: Hi Wol!

    Stim Morane: This is done at the start of the session, or at the end?

    Stim Morane: Hi Wol

    Wol Euler: at any time, it doesn't matter

    Pema Pera: any time

    Wol Euler: *the timing* doesn't matter

    Pema Pera: but you may as well do it at the start

    Pema Pera: lest you forget :)

    Wol Euler: I intend to build in a "nag" function to complain every N minutes until it gest claimed

    Stim Morane: where is the "base of the fountain"?

    Pema Pera: great idea, Wol !!

    Pema Pera: the nozzle

    Stim Morane: tried that ... didn't see "claim"

    Wol Euler: hmmmm

    Wol Euler: how many buttons do you se?

    Pema Pera: yeah!

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Stim Morane: Got it. The notion of clicking means a couple things on a pc

    Wol Euler nods

    Stim Morane: So what do I do then?

    Stim Morane: I just get a link at the end? This means "when I leave"?

    Wol Euler: the link that it told you will be clickable in the Chat History window, you can copy and paste from that URL into the wiki page

    Wol Euler: yes, when the session ends. I think.

    Scathach Rhiadra: I get an email withthe link

    Stim Morane: if I only stay for an hour and others stay on, I'll get an email at the true "end"?

    Pema Pera: if you log out, you'll get the IM emailed to you; if after the session you tp elsewhere, it will show up in the chat log, I believe

    Pema Pera: yes, Stim

    Wol Euler: yes and yes.

    Stim Morane: OK

    Wol Euler: **assuming of course that you have set your SL preferences for that to happen.

    Pema Pera: even if you left now, you'll get the whole session, till the bitter end :-)

    Pema Pera: **yes

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Stim Morane: Neat, Well, goodbye!

    Stim Morane: :)

    Pema Pera: haha

    Pema Pera: yes, very forgiving

    Pema Pera: Hi Sam!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Samuel

    Stim Morane: Samuel

    Samuel Okelly:

    Samuel Okelly: ( @ @ )

    Samuel Okelly: ...o00o.(_).o00o...

    Samuel Okelly: (( HELLO EVERY1! ! ! ! ))

    Samuel Okelly:

    Wol Euler: in the preferences, on the "communication" tab, second item "Send IM to Email" must be activated.

    Pema Pera: A dramatic entrance!!

    Wol Euler: otherwise it will just appear when you next log in.

    Pema Pera: ah yes

    Wol Euler: (I'll add a note about that to the wiki Instructions page)

    Wol Euler: hello sam

    Samuel Okelly: how is every1 keeping?

    Stim Morane: ok

    Scathach Rhiadra: well

    Wol Euler: pretty well thanks.

    Pema Pera: not keeping very much most of the time :-)

    Pema Pera: mostly in flux

    Samuel Okelly: qite a range of reaction there :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Pema Pera: how about you, Sam?

    Samuel Okelly: not bad thanks pem :)

    Pema Pera: Have any of you been working with "appreciating the presence of appearance" lately?

    Wol Euler: hello fefonz

    Samuel Okelly: hi fef

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz

    Pema Pera: (Sam, this is one of the things we occasionally have done here)

    Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone :)

    Pema Pera: Hi Fef!

    Samuel Okelly: i am not aware of this until now... is it easily explained in a few lines?

    Fefonz Quan changes point of view

    Pema Pera: The idea is to set some time aside (could be 9 sec, could be much longer) to simply appreciate anything that appears

    Pema Pera: as it appears

    Pema Pera: thoughts, emotions, memories, sense impressions, anything at all

    Pema Pera: without judging

    Samuel Okelly: ahh yes, sorry "the 9 sec rule"

    Pema Pera: just appreciating, and in fact appreciating the presence of the appearances

    Fefonz Quan: experiment rather than rule...

    Pema Pera: Scathach, may I ask, have you gotten a chance to try that yet?

    Scathach Rhiadra: the 9 sec practice, yes:)

    Fefonz Quan: lol

    Pema Pera: and also the appreciation bit?

    Pema Pera: At some point, quite a while ago, I introduced a sentence

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, sometimes

    Pema Pera: APAPB:

    Pema Pera: Appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being

    Pema Pera: but it may be easier to start by just exploring the first part, APA :)

    Wol Euler: I think of it as being related to the Buddhist idea of having compassion for all beings, it feels like looking around to see whether I have forgotten anyone or anything :)

    Pema Pera: How did that go, Scathach?

    Pema Pera: nice notion, Wol !

    Scathach Rhiadra: when I stop for the 9 secs, especially when I am outside, not in work, I find mysself just appreciating what is, so to speak

    Pema Pera: and if you do it at work?

    Scathach Rhiadra: a bit more tricky, but not impossible:)

    Scathach Rhiadra: too easy to get caught up again in what ever is going on

    Pema Pera: yes

    Scathach Rhiadra: can't just sit at my desk, appreciating appearances, gets attention from the boss:)

    Pema Pera: have you ever tried to let yourself get "half caught up" in what you're doing?

    Pema Pera: :-)

    Pema Pera: continuing what you're doing, not stopping, but releasing the locked-in sense?

    Scathach Rhiadra: hmm, like being in the world, but not of the world?

    Pema Pera: Like watching a movie, really falling into it, yet knowing it's only a play of light?

    Pema Pera: yes

    Pema Pera: you can cry at an emotional scene AND yet know it's not real

    Pema Pera: the one doesn't block the other

    Wol Euler: or a book, an even better illustration of the non-"reality"

    Wol Euler: *cry at a book

    Pema Pera: that's a kind of appreciation of the appearance of a good movie without the substance that needs to be posited behind it

    Pema Pera: yes, indeed

    Pema Pera: or a poem

    Wol Euler: hello susi

    Samuel Okelly: hi sus

    Pema Pera: Hi Susi!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Susi

    Fefonz Quan: hey susi

    Stim Morane: Hi Susi

    Samuel Okelly: am a little unsure of what this entails exactly

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Samuel Okelly: What does it mean to "appreciate the presence of appearance" especially without judging?

    Susi Alcott: sorry I come this late

    Pema Pera: the best thing is to try to do that, Sam

    Pema Pera: and then to compare notes with others

    Pema Pera: hard to explain beforehand . . .

    Wol Euler: susi, you are right on time :)

    Samuel Okelly: couldn't such a necessary and favourable presupposition (i.e. of that which is perceived) may turn out to be folly?

    Pema Pera: anything could be . . .

    Samuel Okelly: not really sure what is being asked

    Pema Pera: . . . research means groping in the dark

    Pema Pera: trying things out

    Pema Pera: not speculating, but giving it a try

    Samuel Okelly: it would seem that an "appreciation" would necessarily require a judgment, for example the peoem, film etc .. (i.e. not all poems represent good quality poetry )

    Susi Alcott: Hi All

    Pema Pera: and seeing what happens, comparing notes with others

    Pema Pera: perhaps, Sam, so, let's give it a try and see :)

    Pema Pera: look at a flower, for example, and play with "judgment"

    Samuel Okelly: do i judge or nut?

    Pema Pera: first see it as a specific type of flower, and judge whether it is pretty or not

    Pema Pera: etc

    Pema Pera: then just look at the flower for its own sake

    Pema Pera: as the creature it is, created by God

    Pema Pera: it is interesting to see whether your experience is different

    Pema Pera: in those two cases

    Samuel Okelly: i am with you with the meditation / consideration / pondering etc but start to loose you after the "without judging" / "judge whether or not it is pretty" etc

    Pema Pera: perhaps a kind of "imitatio" practice, trying to look at objects the way God would do, or Jesus, or a saint

    Pema Pera: with a loving eye, without any discrimination

    Samuel Okelly: please forgive me if i appear pedantic but i am truly a little perplexed with the relevance of "judgment" in the process

    Pema Pera: "the way you have treated anyone, that we you have treated Me" -- like in the last judgment

    Pema Pera: please ask and speak openly and freely, Sam!

    Pema Pera: Do you think God judges flowers?

    Pema Pera: if you permit me to talk that way, in full respect

    Pema Pera: perhaps not so much judgment, as valuation, valuing

    Wol Euler: perhaps we sould talk of "evaluation" instead of judgement

    Wol Euler: snap!

    Pema Pera: prefering one thing over another

    Pema Pera: yes

    Wol Euler: e-value-ation

    Samuel Okelly: i am uncertain if God judges the flowers though i feel if He were to judge them He would do so fairly

    Wol Euler: it is not for me to say whether lillies are better than roses, given that God made them both

    Wol Euler: so I try not to.

    Wol Euler: I try just to see them as they are, for waht they are. Not to see my idea of them

    Stim Morane: Yes

    Wol Euler: because ideas get in the way

    Wol Euler: if I hve an idea about what you mean, it may prevent me hearing what you said.

    Wol Euler smiles

    Pema Pera: Yes, Sam?

    Samuel Okelly: it seems that the possible confusion is not with "judgment" as a practice but in how well it is exercised

    Pema Pera: I was thinking about the sermon of the mount, "not to worry", looking at the lillies of the field

    Pema Pera: not to worry about valuing things

    Wol Euler smiles and nods.

    Pema Pera: but accepting what is, as part of the creation

    Samuel Okelly: worry?

    Pema Pera: we tend to worry all the time . . . . which gets in the way of appreciation

    Pema Pera: we dont' even notice it normally

    Pema Pera: until we can drop (some of) it

    Pema Pera: by prayer or reading or contemplating

    Pema Pera: or falling in love

    Samuel Okelly: surley it is particularly from our capacity to judge that enabled a true and genuine appreciation?

    Pema Pera: that's an open question . . .

    Pema Pera: if you love someone, a child, a partner

    Pema Pera: there is a very deep appreciation

    Pema Pera: is that depending on judgement?

    Samuel Okelly: within a few seconds of meeting a person I will "judge" a person and determine if I can be happy in their company - (eg a mad axeman or a new born baby)

    Pema Pera: (but I don't want to stick to particular interpretations, like "judgment")

    Pema Pera: (you can also "judge" everything to be created by God and as such everything to be sacred)

    Pema Pera: yes, Sam, that is prudent, for sure

    Pema Pera: but you can carry the judgment lightly, so to speak

    Pema Pera: without being glued to the one single interpretation

    Pema Pera: ready to let it go or change

    Samuel Okelly: I would suggest that we can not appreciate without judgment

    Pema Pera: how about trying?

    Pema Pera: trying to lessen judgment and then see whether appreciation lessens too, or not?

    Pema Pera: I prefer the experimental method, over pre-judging

    Samuel Okelly: It is not that I am unwilling to try but that I feel I am incapable of accomplishing what you ask…

    Pema Pera: we can then judge afterwards whether appreciation lessened or not

    Pema Pera: Yes, I understand!

    Pema Pera: It is often difficult to try something that goes counter to what we expect

    Pema Pera: and hey, it may be foolish

    Pema Pera: but what can you loose?

    Pema Pera: perhaps ten minutes of your time, if you do it for ten minutes

    Pema Pera: perhaps nothing happens, but it may still be fun to try

    Samuel Okelly: It is tantamount to asking me to think of nothing :)

    Wol Euler: Pascal's wager :)

    Pema Pera: now that is an interesting experiment

    Pema Pera: trying to think of nothing

    Pema Pera: probably you won't succeed, but you can keep notes of what happens

    Wol Euler: it is close to asking you to look without thinking.

    Pema Pera: in a kind of laboratory journal

    Pema Pera: and chances are that you will be more creative trying to think of nothing than just going your usual way

    Pema Pera: so something fun may come out!

    Pema Pera: Playful exploration is at the base of any scientific discovery

    Pema Pera: and also at the base of any discovery that widens your horizon in life

    Pema Pera worries about being too talkative again . . . .

    Samuel Okelly: i fail to comprehend how my consideration can avoid judgment

    Pema Pera: try it

    Pema Pera: why not?

    Samuel Okelly: i dont know how

    Pema Pera: sit down, try to lessen judgment

    Samuel Okelly: i am NOT refusing to

    Pema Pera: look at a single flower

    Pema Pera: yes, I very much appreciate Sam!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Budd:)

    Pema Pera: I'm delighted that we can have this conversation

    Samuel Okelly: :)

    Pema Pera: if you just spend ten minutes looking at a single flower

    Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)

    Wol Euler: hello fael

    buddha Nirvana: Hi fael :

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael:)

    buddha Nirvana: :)

    Wol Euler: hello buddha

    Samuel Okelly: hi fae

    buddha Nirvana: Hello Woe, hi all

    Samuel Okelly: hi bud

    Stim Morane: hi buddhaa, Fael

    Pema Pera: trying to see it with the eyes of a very compassionate saint, say, what happens? You can imagine what would happen -- but that is different from doing it. Would you be willing to do it, and later tell us, or IM or email me, what you found

    Fefonz Quan: Heya Fael, Buddha :)

    Stim Morane: *buddha ... sorry, severe system lag

    Susi Alcott: hi FAel

    Pema Pera: Hi Buddha!

    Pema Pera: And hi Fael!

    Susi Alcott: hi buddha

    buddha Nirvana: Hi :)

    Fael Illyar came to squeeze Susi's neck again.

    Fael Illyar smiles.

    Pema Pera: Buddha, have you been here before?

    buddha Nirvana: Yes, a couple of times now

    Pema Pera: Nice to meet you!

    buddha Nirvana: you too *.*

    Pema Pera: Have you tried playing with the 9-seconds explorations?

    buddha Nirvana: i'm not familiar with that

    Pema Pera: we have a web site

    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is

    buddha Nirvana: the wiki one?

    Samuel Okelly: hi sti

    Pema Pera: yes, it gives the background

    buddha Nirvana: ok, i;ll have a look now, thanks

    Wol Euler: wb stim

    Stim Morane: thanks

    Pema Pera: the basic idea is that we stop every 15 minutes for a nano-meditation of 9 seconds

    Pema Pera: dropping what we have in order to see what we are

    Fael Illyar kind of would prefer calling it mini but ... well, nano is fine too :)

    buddha Nirvana: Ah yes, that was explained to me ladst night

    Pema Pera: takes only a few minutes of your time, if you do it a few hours a day :-)

    Pema Pera: sort-of nano as part of your whole life

    Pema Pera: 2 or 3 billion seconds in a life

    buddha Nirvana: Quantum contemplation ?

    Pema Pera: if you like :-)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    buddha Nirvana: :~))

    Pema Pera: you can make money that way!

    Wol Euler tries to work strange and charmed quarks into this somewhere

    buddha Nirvana: quiet quarks *.*

    Fefonz Quan: quantumplation :)

    Wol Euler: !

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    buddha Nirvana: ha :))

    Samuel Okelly: "quirky" quarks?

    buddha Nirvana: quality quarks

    Pema Pera: what kind of Buddhism are you most interested in Buddha, if I may ask?

    buddha Nirvana: Well really, im just a practiioner of vipassana

    Pema Pera: Vipassana is wonderful !

    buddha Nirvana: But am intererested in all buddhist text and dialogue

    Pema Pera: because of the "just" in it :-)

    buddha Nirvana: Yes, one becomes an observer

    Pema Pera: what we do, every fifteen minutes, could be done as a kind of very brief vipassana, 9 seconds at a time

    buddha Nirvana: Sure, nice idea, :)

    Pema Pera: (9 seconds because there are 900 seconds in a quarter of an hour; it's a kind of jok, a 1% time tax)

    Pema Pera: *joke

    Pema Pera: we're trading duration in for frequency

    Pema Pera: instead of doing it half an hour a day, only once a day

    Pema Pera: we do it many times a day, but briefly

    buddha Nirvana: sounds a reasonable deduction :)

    Pema Pera: walking in the fog instead of taking a shower

    Pema Pera: a different way of getting wet

    Wol Euler chuckles

    Pema Pera: and REMAINING wet

    Pema Pera: we have no towels . . .

    Wol Euler: what a lovely image

    Pema Pera: "yes, we have no towels"

    Pema Pera: we should put that to a tune

    Pema Pera: (and I see a title for the session)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Wol Euler: heheheh

    Fefonz Quan: no towels - there goes our '42' answer :)

    Pema Pera: :)

    Fefonz Quan: i think i can stay with the 'don't panic' for now though

    Fefonz Quan: we*

    Wol Euler: always very good advice.

    Pema Pera: I have to leave for RL, I'm afraid . . .

    Samuel Okelly: tc pem :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Pema

    Fefonz Quan: see you Pema :)

    Wol Euler: 'night pema, thanks for coming.

    Stim Morane: Bye Pema

    Pema Pera: thank you, Sam, for being such a good sports!

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Pema Pera: I know that you and I come from somewhat different backgrounds

    Samuel Okelly: yw :) i

    Wol Euler: bye susi

    Stim Morane: I will have to leave as well

    buddha Nirvana: Nite pema

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Susi

    Pema Pera: and I'm delighted to see how we can communicate

    Fefonz Quan: bye stim, susi

    Wol Euler: bye stim, take care

    Pema Pera: bye everybody!

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim:)

    Stim Morane: Bye all!

    Wol Euler: I was reading about Vipassana in the wikipedia in aother window. There seems to me a high degree of overlap between V and the PaB practices.

    Wol Euler: "A synonym for "Vipassanā" is paccakkha (Pāli; Sanskrit: pratyakṣa), "before the eyes," which refers to direct experiential perception. Thus, the type of seeing denoted by "vipassanā" is that of direct perception, as opposed to knowledge derived from reasoning or argument."

    Samuel Okelly: i was thinking that too wol

    Fefonz Quan: yes, i said so too

    Fael Illyar: Naturally, I'd think most meditation has overlap :)

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Wol Euler smiles. I'm glad that I finally caught up with you then.

    Fefonz Quan: infact when i started PaB, i treated it as 9-sec vipashyana

    Wol Euler: mm?

    Fefonz Quan: i was doing the same thing in PaB like in vipashyana

    Fefonz Quan: and since than, sometimes i think i missed something, and sometimes i don't :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Fefonz Quan: pema manages to confuse me over and over again with the "being" notion

    Fefonz Quan: I'm being confused...

    Samuel Okelly: though I frequently enter into contemplative prayer, I genuinely struggle with this form of meditation..:( i wish i knew what you were all doing ;-)

    Fefonz Quan: well, in the 9-sec, we mostly do nothing ('it;s a show about nothing')

    Wol Euler: there may also be a high degree of overlap between what you call prayer and what we call meditation :)

    Fefonz Quan: the immersion in something... maybe

    Fael Illyar: it's a kind of pause from everything :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: a kind of being in the moment

    Samuel Okelly: i thought so wol but now I wonder: prayer in a judaeo-christian sense is an active engagement not a rejection of positive and conscious thought

    Fefonz Quan: but you can try thing of it as being deeply into the moment,

    Fefonz Quan: not "forcing' any rejection. and the moment can be in prayer too

    buddha Nirvana: with Vipassana you would be observing yourself in the moments

    buddha Nirvana: moment*

    Fefonz Quan: observing appearances in the moment,

    Fefonz Quan tries to take the 'yourself' with a bit of salt

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    buddha Nirvana: yeah, the arising of sensation

    Fefonz Quan: (it's the tears, scath :))

    Samuel Okelly: the object of the prayer is placed under the microscope to allow for greater clarity of vision (hence the contemplative aspect) but this would seem at odds to an idea that there should be no object as such

    Fefonz Quan: (hence the salt...)

    Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)

    Fefonz Quan: no-self, no tears :-)

    Wol Euler: well, I don't know. I am not a Buddhist, and probably not a particularly good PaB-ist either, but I often meditate on an object or a thought

    Fefonz Quan: me too.

    Fefonz Quan: but just seeing it arising, letting it be, and watch it drop away

    Wol Euler: we often use the word "unpack" to mean "discover what an expression really means in this context"

    Wol Euler: I use meditation sometimes to unpack things that are bothering me

    Wol Euler: "why exactly am I upset about htis? why does it matter so much to me?"

    Fefonz Quan nods

    Wol Euler: (you asked what we actually do, Samuel. This is what I do :)

    Samuel Okelly: oh sure... i am trying to understand this :)

    Samuel Okelly: I am not questioning the practice of "meditation" but I think pema's insistence that it should be "without judgment" needs to respond to the objections it raises

    Fefonz Quan: for maybe it's like 'surrender to teh moment', putting it in other words

    Fefonz Quan: not judging is like - not putting labels, not fighting mostly :)

    Samuel Okelly: as a person who engages in contemplative prayer regularly through out day, I can see the benefits of reflective considerations and increased ordered thought but I fail to see how this can be achieved without judgment

    Fefonz Quan: maybe it seems a little different then prayer, but giving it a try might be interesting

    Fefonz Quan: "with less judgement" may be better for a start

    Samuel Okelly: telling me to "give it a try" is no different than telling me whsitle under water... what is being asked seems impossible

    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe you could think of it as just putting aside judgement, just for that moment, to see what is there, as it is

    Fefonz Quan: not agree, if i would tell you i have a whistle that works?

    Fefonz Quan: at worst, a lot of nice bubbles are surely to emerge :)

    Samuel Okelly: bending the analogy to suit another premise does not detract from the point i made

    Fael Illyar: your point being "I don't believe it's possible, so I won't try?"

    Samuel Okelly: either we judge and that action will inform us or we don't... i hold that we must judge in order for us to have a meaningful experience

    Fefonz Quan: right. but that's why i tried to start with less judgment and see where it leads. that sounds less impossible

    Samuel Okelly: fael - i DID NOT SAY THAT ... that is NOT a direct quote of what i said and the log will show this

    Fael Illyar: Samuel, I'm making a guess on what you meant

    Fefonz Quan: when galileo threw the stone from the Pizza tower, he needed no judgement to accomplish teh experiment

    Fael Illyar: it's more of a question on whether that's your feelings about this or not.

    Samuel Okelly: I am NOT challenging meditation, or the idea of EXPERIMENT.. simply the requirement of non-judgment that is all

    Fefonz Quan: i have a meeting in RL in five, so bye for now, Sam, Fael, Buddha, Scath, Wol :)

    Samuel Okelly: tc fef :)

    Wol Euler: bye fefonz, take care. See you anon.

    Fael Illyar: The point of meditation is to judge less so you can see what other ways there might be to see things.

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Fefonz:)

    Fael Illyar: See you later Fefonz :)

    Samuel Okelly: i disagree fef

    Samuel Okelly: sorry fael, i disagree with that

    Fael Illyar: what is the point then?

    Samuel Okelly: "[14:27] Samuel Okelly: I am NOT challenging meditation, or the idea of EXPERIMENT.. simply the requirement of non-judgment that is all"

    Fael Illyar: it's not a requirement.

    Wol Euler: ok, let's go with that.

    Fael Illyar: simply an ideal.

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    buddha Nirvana: Vipassana is an insight meditation to develop insight and awareness of things as they actually are

    Wol Euler: I think the point is not that one may not judge, but rather not to rush to judgement

    buddha Nirvana: In this type of meditation you are developing yourself, so you can see things without distortion

    Samuel Okelly: as i suggested earlier it seems that the possible confusion is not with "judgment" as a practice but in how well it is exercised

    Samuel Okelly: i see that wol as a shift in what pema was asking

    Wol Euler: agreed. I am trying to find a way of expressing it that neither excludes you nor does violence to the concept.

    Wol Euler: it is not _about_ refusing judgement. It is about accepting reality, which means seeing reality.

    Scathach Rhiadra: and seeing how what we 'project' onto reality, distorts our experience of it

    Wol Euler: exactly. Pema's insistence on non-judgement is to me a warning against thinking that we know the world completely and with utter exactitude

    Samuel Okelly: I can certainly agree with such a view

    Samuel Okelly: as I would see this as a positively an active engagement to rule out quick and unqualified judgment which may be hiding or blocking a truth

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Wol Euler: that is the essence, Sam, as I see it. The world is more than the names we give to its pieces.

    Wol Euler: we try to see the worldness behind our perception of its bits.

    Samuel Okelly: i would argue that in this way judgment performs a necessary function

    Fael Illyar: yes, in practise we need to judge to be able to function.

    Fael Illyar: the idea of meditation is to train us in being able to not judge when it's sensible.

    Wol Euler: I have an idea.

    Wol Euler: [14:31] Samuel Okelly: as i suggested earlier it seems that the possible confusion is not with "judgment" as a practice but in how well it is exercised

    Samuel Okelly: :0

    Samuel Okelly: that is precisely my point :)

    Samuel Okelly: often in our busy lives we fill-in what we see with what is assumed and not actually observed I think so i think meditation teaches us to judge and observe fairly

    Wol Euler: could you see a variation of this practice in which it becomes your goal to enumerate all of the attributes and qualities of a rose, say

    Wol Euler: in order to judge it _perfectly_ from what it is, rather than from your memory of roses?

    Samuel Okelly: i agree

    Fael Illyar: perhaps more of gives us practise in being aware of what we assume.

    Wol Euler: in other words, the meditation is clearing space to be more fully aware of the rose

    Wol Euler: in order to judge it _better_ than we have ever judged before? More fairly, more fully?

    Wol Euler: Could that work for you?

    Samuel Okelly: i think the question of how to judge fairly and judge accurately is a bigger topic for another time ;-)

    Wol Euler: you couldn't just say "it has thorns", you would have to count them, feel them, note that they are actually just as much smooth and soft as they are prickly.

    Wol Euler: Do you see what I'm saying?

    Samuel Okelly: i it would seem we are saying much the same thing wol

    Wol Euler smiles.

    Samuel Okelly: i fully agree that there is merit in focused and ordered thought that is freed from unnecessary obscurities that our busy everyday lives through at us

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Fael Illyar: it's also refreshing to let the judging go sometimes :)

    Samuel Okelly: lol

    Samuel Okelly: i dont see that as possible

    Samuel Okelly: (but you realised that already eh? ;-)

    Fael Illyar: well, as much as you can :)

    Wol Euler: oh but it is, in limited ways for short periods and in specific contexts.

    Wol Euler: Nobody is suggesting that you never judge anyhting again :)

    Fael Illyar: it's kind of like taking a pause from it :)

    Wol Euler: exactly

    Wol Euler: resting, in order to do it better next time

    Scathach Rhiadra: just letting your assumptions go, see a rose as if for the first time

    Samuel Okelly: sounds like what you are describing is an artificial construct

    Wol Euler: if you like.

    Wol Euler: it is a moment set aside from normal life, much as prayer is.

    Samuel Okelly: prayer neednt be like that

    Fael Illyar: artificial construct? not quite, it's more like letting the artificial construct go :)

    Fael Illyar: that we've piled layer upon layers on ourselves.

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Wol Euler: hello vertigo, long time no see.

    Samuel Okelly: if we surrender our judgment we render ourselves vulnerable

    Fael Illyar: vulnerable to?

    Wol Euler: samuel, it isn't "either/or", one choice for ever after.

    Samuel Okelly: vulnerable to anything that may cause us harm

    Samuel Okelly: hi V

    Fael Illyar: Hi Vertigo :)

    Wol Euler: early morning for you?

    Vertigo Ethaniel: hi everyone

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hi Vertigo

    Samuel Okelly: please excuse me folks but RL calls me ...

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Samuel

    Vertigo Ethaniel: getting horrible framerate, im trying to run a linux client

    Wol Euler notes the time. Yes, I should go too.

    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Samuel :)

    Wol Euler: goodnight sam, take care

    Samuel Okelly: thanks for the interesting discussion every1!

    Samuel Okelly: cheeiro for now :)

    Wol Euler: it was, thank you too

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I'm off too, see you all again soon, namasté

    Fael Illyar: See you later Scat :)

    Wol Euler: goodnight scath, take care

    Fael Illyar: See you later Wol :)

    Wol Euler: bye fael, bye vertigo.

    Fael Illyar: See you later Vertigo :)

    Vertigo Ethaniel: see ya wol

    Wol Euler: Just bad timing, don't take it personally :-)

    Vertigo Ethaniel: bye fael

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