2009.02.13 19:00 - RL and SL

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Threedee Shepherd.


    Myna Maven: Hey Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi, I'm sitting in as GoC tonight, for Adelene
    Myna Maven: OK. I'm supposed to start being a Guardian on Saturday nights.
    Myna Maven: I've been looking at the Wiki...
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Myna Maven: I don't have a note card, for instance, and don't know how to pass them out.
    Threedee Shepherd: And you would need to in order to???
    Myna Maven: I had thought if new individuals showed up, you gave them note cards.
    Myna Maven: Thanks.
    Myna Maven: Now how do I pass along a notecard to someone?
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, that notecard was in my Inventory in the Notecard Folder. That is probably where the copy I gave you now, is.
    Myna Maven: Yes.\
    Threedee Shepherd: You just open the Inventory, find the notecard, and click on it and drag it "onto" the body (or name) of the avatar you want to give it to, then unclick
    Myna Maven: Oh, that's easy.
    Threedee Shepherd: More things are, once SL let's you uncover the "secret" ;D
    Myna Maven: :)
    Myna Maven: I've not poked into corners with all one can do.
    Threedee Shepherd: You can try, but they keep moving ^.^
    Myna Maven: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: I've been in SL two years now (a month less as this Av) and there are still things I am learning, and I am a Provider/Builder
    Myna Maven: I really have been impressed with how much work it takes for constructing environments.
    Threedee Shepherd: It quick to do it "dirty" lots of time to do it elegant
    Myna Maven: I can well imagine.
    Threedee Shepherd: It also depends on how much prior experience you have with other graphics programs
    Myna Maven: When did you become involved in PaB?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello all
    Myna Maven: Hello Steven.
    Threedee Shepherd: about 9-10 months ago, I think
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve. I'm sitting in as GoC for Ade
    stevenaia Michinaga: ok
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Myna, welcome again
    Myna Maven: Thanks, Steven.
    stevenaia Michinaga: what do you do at the IAS?
    Myna Maven: IAS?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I thought you were visiting princeton, probably ahve my names crossed as usual
    Myna Maven: No, nothing to do with Princeton.
    stevenaia Michinaga: how did you come my this group?
    Myna Maven: I've been by several times over the past month.
    Myna Maven: The PaB group.
    Myna Maven: Involved in the Pheno group.
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, ok
    Myna Maven: I just got on SL sometime in late Dec or early Jan and happened to find my way here immediately.
    Myna Maven: I think it was the second place I visited.
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Myna Maven: Pema was here and we briefly talked.
    stevenaia Michinaga: always interesting what draws us to what here... smiles
    Myna Maven: And I read the Kira website and started attending the discussions/lectures.
    Myna Maven: Hi Pila.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: I hope everyone is well and happy
    stevenaia Michinaga: getting weller
    stevenaia Michinaga: but it appears flu is on the rise
    Pila Mulligan: oh, yes, I forgot the sickly condition Steve -- sorry
    Myna Maven: Sorry you've been sick, Steve.
    stevenaia Michinaga: cough, now my wife has it
    Pila Mulligan: have you seen gan mao ling?
    Myna Maven: It's passing around our household. So far our son is fine.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, but do keep it with me (the words) once I get to the aphothocay of sorts
    Myna Maven: I've not taken gan mao ling. Had never heard of it.
    Threedee Shepherd: Myna, are you particularly interested in Phenomenology?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I will se if they ahve it
    Myna Maven: Am I particularly interested in phenomenology? I am curious. I have been reading up on it.
    Threedee Shepherd: What are you reading?
    Myna Maven: Well, been reading things I've found around the web and picked up a book on Hegel.
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh, Hegel is a hard place to start
    Pila Mulligan: but so interesting nonetheless
    Threedee Shepherd: although there probably is no easy place to start
    Myna Maven: "Hegel and the Hermetic Tradition".
    Myna Maven: I thought that would make for some interesting reading.
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Myna Maven: Am finishing up some other liteature and will get into it when I'm done.
    Pila Mulligan: Hegel seems to have grapsed the nature of change elegantly
    Pila Mulligan: moreso than most Western writers
    Myna Maven: I was reading of a Japanese individual....I can't recollect his name now.
    Myna Maven: Thought I might pick up something by him.
    Myna Maven: Doing a Google search now looking for his name.
    Myna Maven: Can't find it at the moment.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: in Pema's debate with Giles they seemed to be worlds apart on the topic of philosophical phenomenology
    Myna Maven: I had the impression from my reading on the web that it's that way...
    Pila Mulligan: rationalists have their needs, I suppose
    Myna Maven: Consensus seems difficult.
    Myna Maven: Different approaches, definitions.
    Pila Mulligan: my irrational view is that we exist in a consensus expereince
    stevenaia Michinaga: why is that irrational?
    Pila Mulligan: well, non-scientfici perhaps :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: is science and consensus exclusve?
    Pila Mulligan: rl phone call
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Autumn
    stevenaia Michinaga: poof, she;s gone
    Pila Mulligan: back -- a mason planning a cement job for tomorrow :)
    Pila Mulligan: science is a subset of consesnus, I'd say Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: making progress
    Pila Mulligan: I think the controversy surrounding cold fusion is an illustration
    Threedee Shepherd: scientific, thought of as models, is a subset of consensus. Reality IS
    stevenaia Michinaga: it made sence that my statement may ahve been correct with the little I know of the scientific process, which seems single minded in nature
    Pila Mulligan: yes and reality is so vast that we can only agree on on our shared expereince in a small part of it
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Stevem as a nonscientist it seems ot me sceintists address a narrow window of reality
    Pila Mulligan: now just for the sake of contemplation ....
    Threedee Shepherd: Phenomenology tries to capture our experience of the world, not to model it, I think
    Pila Mulligan: let's suppose that those few scinetists claiming to have accomplished cold fusion in their laboratories are not charlatans or fools
    Pila Mulligan: let's suppose the posibility that they really did it
    Pila Mulligan: this may not be true, of course, but for the fun of it let's say it is
    Myna Maven: OK?
    Pila Mulligan: now there are lots of other scientists saying they cannot do it, that it is imp[ossible
    Pila Mulligan: why would it be that a few can do it and most cannot?
    Pila Mulligan: if this hypothesis is valid, there is some aspect of reality being presumed inocrreclty
    stevenaia Michinaga: that;s not how science works, everyone one should be able to make fusion with the same recepe
    Pila Mulligan: maybe that is the incorrect presumption :)
    Pila Mulligan: or maybe it is something that the sceintists themselves have not yet seen
    Pila Mulligan: and then, when they see it, they will all be able to dio it
    stevenaia Michinaga: thought that was science was, if it works here it works there too
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, as a scientist, I can say that a reciepe is actually hard to replicate if it depends on extremely subtle factors.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    stevenaia Michinaga: hard yes, but eventually it should be able to
    Myna Maven: My father was a scientist...and I know from his work that what Three says is true.
    Pila Mulligan: do you think it, as a scinetist, Threedee, that there is a reomte possibility thatoneof those guys actually did cold fuion?
    Threedee Shepherd: I live at 5400 feet, perhaps some biochemical experiment I am successful at is very sensitive to atmospheric pressure and no one knows that?
    Pila Mulligan: yep, exactly
    Threedee Shepherd: I am convinced they got the result they did. I am not convinced it is cold fusion.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but what it it only works because you LOVE your experiment
    Pila Mulligan: that is just what I mean, too -- some factor maybe very simple affecting the expereiment
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, well, there I am unable to follow the thought, as it is beyond my comprehension :)
    Pila Mulligan: steve, you may have somethiing there :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: it works on people now doesn;t it, units things for long period of time and changes worlds
    stevenaia Michinaga: hard to replicate purposfully
    Pila Mulligan: doesn't grow under a bunsen burner
    stevenaia Michinaga: not very well
    Myna Maven: brb
    Threedee Shepherd: Scientists proceed in various ways. Sometimes the initial finding is empirical. A next step is to do modifications based on theory to try and understand mechanism. Once mechanism is better understood, others can reproduce because the underlying process guides them
    Threedee Shepherd: of course, sometimes theory gets changed, since it to is just a model
    Pila Mulligan: but they usually factor in those things like atmospheric pressure, unless perhaps the relationship is so subtle that they presume it to be irrelevant
    stevenaia Michinaga: and so many thing elude that process, like conciousness
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh, Is the script going to raise the land just when the wagon is there?
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    Threedee Shepherd: sorry, wrong window
    stevenaia Michinaga: haha
    Myna Maven: Back.
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb
    Pila Mulligan: speakingof subltle factors :)
    Pila Mulligan: wb Myna
    stevenaia Michinaga: I hope you have an anser to that one Three
    Threedee Shepherd: which one
    stevenaia Michinaga: the wagon
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Myna Maven: So. Pila and Steven, how long have you both been involved in Kira/PaB?
    Pila Mulligan: a few months
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think I met Pema jsut after PaB began, probabmy in May
    stevenaia Michinaga: probably
    Threedee Shepherd: It's a project Ade and I are building in the Teen Grid. We are finding out subtle ways physical objects interact with land
    Pila Mulligan: did you attend the gathering in August, Thredee, as I believe Steve did?
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: August and October
    Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi
    Pila Mulligan: so a script to make an object levitate?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all
    Myna Maven: Hello Corvi.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi
    Threedee Shepherd: You can do that, but it is not the issue we have.
    stevenaia Michinaga: this place has the potential to offer much to those who participate
    Pila Mulligan: Corvi when did you start with Kira's?
    Pila Mulligan: Myna was asking about it just before you arrived
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: when did I start at Kiras? I'm not sure I understand? or when did I start with Play as Being?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I suppose both :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Yanno..I'm not sure?
    stevenaia Michinaga: you can do a search on the logs and see the earliest on you turn up in
    Pila Mulligan: did you attend the gathering?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...I might try that then, Steve..let ya'll know in a bit...but..no, Pila..I've only ever met Adelene of all the people in SL I know.
    Pila Mulligan: the gathering seems to have been a singifcant time for the folks attending it
    stevenaia Michinaga: most enjoyable
    Corvuscorva Nightfire turns to Three and Steve...
    stevenaia Michinaga: are you on the east coast Myna?
    Myna Maven: Atlanta.
    stevenaia Michinaga: typing conversations is so much more deliberate for me than speaking to a group
    stevenaia Michinaga: so it was quite diferent
    stevenaia Michinaga: and so much more to read from people in person
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: ThreeDee looks exactly like the lion, if I do say
    Myna Maven: Steven, I find it is the same way with me. I've conducted interviews in chats and those went well but a conversation exchange is different.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I'm curious about the disparity between expectations and actuality in a rl meeting with someone from a prievious virtual world acquanitance
    Threedee Shepherd: Not enought experience for me to say much about that, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: I've never had the expereince at all :)
    Myna Maven: I know I've not had a problem going from meeting on the computer outside of SL and going on to meet individuals in RL. But then they're people I've been working with for a while and one gets a good sense of the individuals from that.
    stevenaia Michinaga: expectations, I think I ended up taking RL images and now apply them to those I have met and talk to here afterwards
    Pila Mulligan: so your sense is usually accurate, Myna?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I liked meeting Ade..and found that she is amazingly just like my expectation.
    Myna Maven: I don't have any expectations as per appearance...
    Pila Mulligan: how about before, at the first rl meeting, Steve, did oyu have an accurate sense of the people as you e tthem in rl?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I found her more so in RL
    Myna Maven: As for personality...I can tend to get a good feel from emails...but those are lengthy work exchanges.
    Myna Maven: And one has more information.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I had no expectations, but was still suprised
    Myna Maven: I can see where one might be set up for "surprise" going from a SL visual environment to RL.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I had seen a pic of pema online before we ment and a photo of sylectra
    Myna Maven: One becomes used to the avatar...
    Pila Mulligan: even a chnage of avatars seems to affect my sense of someone's personality
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Pila, we were discussing that a bit ago here at PaB
    stevenaia Michinaga: the most amaving thing I thought were how private people were in RL vs SL
    Pila Mulligan: private ...?
    Myna Maven: Really?
    stevenaia Michinaga: about aspects of their Rl
    Pila Mulligan: ahh
    stevenaia Michinaga: vs what we have come to know in RL
    stevenaia Michinaga: in SL., rather
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    stevenaia Michinaga: some not even offering their RL names
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the SL mask helps some times
    Myna Maven: Because of the anonymity aspect of SL?
    stevenaia Michinaga: for those who desire it to be so
    stevenaia Michinaga: but there is an ability to interact in RL quicker and more directly in RL
    Pila Mulligan: the whole internet is a kind of tabula rasa
    Myna Maven: I get some of that in SL hearing people's voices. That is easier.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm..i find it much easier to "talk" sometimes in type.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Myna, voices make a big difference
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there's a different kind of thinking that comes with type.
    Pila Mulligan: my problem with voice is the technology requirement
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: for me, anyway.
    Pila Mulligan: so itis easeir for me to Corvi, but maybe a different easy :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, smiling.
    Myna Maven: I work with some people on language preservation and was hoping SL might be a tool taht could be used but the tech is too high.
    Pila Mulligan: what type of workis it Myna -- what lnaguages?
    Myna Maven: Many people still don't have the equip or connectivity required.
    Myna Maven: A dying American Indian language.
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    Myna Maven: Offically considered dead.
    Pila Mulligan: I did a project like that with the Thai Dam people before leaving the Mainaldn in the 80's
    Pila Mulligan: very rewarding
    Pila Mulligan: what lanugae, if i may ask?
    Myna Maven: An individual has been hard at work for decades creating a dictionary.
    Myna Maven: Baxoje.
    Myna Maven: Ioway.
    Pila Mulligan: there was a University tat picked p the Thai Dam project and helped it immensely
    Pila Mulligan: much more resources avialable then
    Threedee Shepherd: Myna, I was involved in a trial of setting up SL to teach Lakota. I know what you mean. BUT, as OpenSim is coming along, I think we can do it there much easier than in SL
    Myna Maven: Really, Three. Interesting. I was reading about OpenSim last week.
    Myna Maven: How did the Lakota project go?
    Threedee Shepherd: My small company is about to play with its own OpenSim, and there are a number of free and inexpensive grids out there. Let's talk later.
    Myna Maven: All right. But at this point I don't expect I will be able to build up an interest.
    Threedee Shepherd: too bad?
    Pila Mulligan: pardon my avi :)
    Myna Maven: Well, there are so few people working on this...only so much time.
    Myna Maven: I am only involved on a technical end....website etc.
    Pila Mulligan: that was how ours started Myna -- don;t doubt the potential :)
    Myna Maven: I keep trying to come up with ideas for classes that everyone can have accesss to.
    Pila Mulligan: isuggest you finsih the dictionary first, the use it to publish some stories
    Myna Maven: I don't doubt the potential.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: The lakota project bogged down due to technical and social difficulties.
    Myna Maven: I'm not involved in the writing of the dictionary.
    Pila Mulligan: too bad Threedee
    Pila Mulligan: the Thai Dam published several pamphlets of their teaching stories, with English and Thai Dam side by side on the pages
    Myna Maven: Three, I can easily see that happening.
    Threedee Shepherd: It is VERY hard/tricky as an anglo to work with Indians and the Tribal Colleges.
    Myna Maven: Most Yes, Three.
    Pila Mulligan: Tai Dam, pardon me
    Pila Mulligan: it was Northern Illinois University
    Myna Maven: The person who does the dictionary is actually doing a lot of translation of different materials, old stories (when apprropriate)...and even a comic book is being done.
    Myna Maven: Well, a graphic novle.
    Myna Maven: Novle.
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/tai/TaiDam/index.htm
    Myna Maven: Novel.
    Myna Maven: Sigh.
    Pila Mulligan: in our case we were lucky to have a sparkplug young woman literate in both languages to keep things going until the University stepped in
    Pila Mulligan: another idea Myna may be to find someone to help make your primary source the subect of an oral history project
    Myna Maven: They are working off a grant, now.
    Myna Maven: They would prefer to teach language in person, and I can understand that.
    Myna Maven: Because it is more than just language...it is culture.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but even just publising the sotries will help preserve the language
    Pila Mulligan: yes, that it true
    Pila Mulligan: a CULTURE
    Pila Mulligan: well, i hope you have success with the efforts
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, I have found that learning about an actual, different culture with real people is HARD. I doubt stories are much of a substitute
    Myna Maven: Well, as I've said, I'm only marginally involved...taking care of the tech end. But I've been working with them for a number of years now.
    Pila Mulligan: Three, it is hard, having done it with several myself, but in the face of alnaguage becomeing extinct, the stories are one tool to presevre it for future interests
    Myna Maven: Stories are no substitute, but I am glad for every story I get. We are very distantly descended Ioway and I'm glad to have them to give to my son.
    Myna Maven: I mean distantly descended from the Ioway.
    Pila Mulligan: a culture is established in many different ways, but the language is a fundamental vehicle for the culture
    Pila Mulligan: and the stories are an element of both the cuklture and the language
    Threedee Shepherd: Myna, there seems to be a renewed interest amoung young Indians who live on reservations to learn their native languages.
    Myna Maven: I was reading a little about how Lakota is changing with this renewed interest...as languages will change when alive...
    Threedee Shepherd: Interesting!
    Myna Maven: I have tried a couple of times to learn Ioway and teach it to my son at the same time. I've some literature and tapes. But it can be difficult trying to give words to this modern world.
    Myna Maven: Anyway, it's proved difficult for me to learn.
    Myna Maven: Well, I need to get going.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Myna, good luck with your efforts
    Myna Maven: Thanks, Pila.
    Myna Maven: Bye Steven, Three, Corvi. Until later.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Myna..thanks for sharing what your working on
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go to
    stevenaia Michinaga: always interesting
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve -- try gan mao ling :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Steve, Pila
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Pila Mulligan: oh, Corvi, I misread- I tohught you were going :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye, enjoy your weekend, enjoy your mason, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Steve
    Pila Mulligan: Three, the most interesting and succesful cultrual renaissance I've seen is the Hawaiian revival
    Pila Mulligan: they have actually gotten Hawaiian immersion education embedded in the government schools
    Pila Mulligan: in Hawaiian language
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Ah..I am going now..bye all!
    Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Pila, Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: Well Pila, time to go for me as well. See you again ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: ok, bye Three
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