2009.02.17 13:00 - Babies and Being

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Lia Rikugun: hello
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Scath :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Lia
    Fefonz Quan: being the late GoC here, were there any conversation before i lately arrived?
    Scathach Rhiadra: no, I had just arrived:)
    Lia Rikugun: hello doug
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Solo:)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Doug
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Doug
    Fefonz Quan: and Solo
    Lia Rikugun: helo solo
    Fefonz Quan: good to see you here
    doug Sosa: :)
    Solobill Laville: Hi, all :)
    Fefonz Quan: I have a little technical question:
    Fefonz Quan: if i get a group notice of an event (like your sutra club now Solo)
    Fefonz Quan: how can i save it in my inventory in order not to forget it?
    Scathach Rhiadra: I don't think you can save it
    Fefonz Quan: Solo just Soloed out...
    doug Sosa: its a good question. i often get things and if i click"ok", its gone.
    Scathach Rhiadra: but you can look up the notices on the group profile
    Fefonz Quan: right.
    doug Sosa: but you then have to remember it.
    doug Sosa: it= their group name.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but if ou get them it is one of your groups
    Fefonz Quan: WB SOlo
    Scathach Rhiadra: even if you saved it to your inventory, you could still forget you had it:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: its not like a diary entry
    doug Sosa: that helps.
    Fefonz Quan can forget anything anywhere
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Solobill Laville: (sorry about that, I was just typing away happily to find I had crashed :))
    Fefonz Quan: so some kind of SLT calendar is required then.
    Lia Rikugun: thats a good idea
    Scathach Rhiadra: do you use Outlook?
    Fefonz Quan: sometimes
    Fefonz Quan: but that's out of world, it
    Fefonz Quan: would be convenient to have it inworld
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan: (and if you switch time zones with your outlook calendar, you know why)


    Then we got into more PaB stuff back.

    Fefonz Quan: i have a questin/thought about our no-concepts practice
    Fefonz Quan: question*
    Lia Rikugun: ok?
    Scathach Rhiadra listens
    Fefonz Quan: Yesterday i practices a little meditating, while looking at the hair of someone infront of me,
    Fefonz Quan: trying to get beyond its "hairness", and then it's browness etc.
    Fefonz Quan: then it occured to me, that a baby, before learning about hair, color, people
    Fefonz Quan: might have the same no-conceptual experience we strive to achieve
    Fefonz Quan: So there are two questions: 1. so does that baby sees reality better then we do?
    Fefonz Quan: and 2. - if so, still he has to acquire all the extra data inorder to get on in the world and grow up properly
    Lia Rikugun: interesting...
    Lia Rikugun: hello wol
    doug Sosa: the babay is much more intensely bathed in aromas, and visually looking for eyes. Strong motives, vague perceptions of the rest.
    Fefonz Quan: Heya Wol :)
    Solobill Laville: Wol :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol:)
    Wol Euler: good evening everyone.
    Solobill Laville: Many traditions talk of "having a childlike mind", especially some Zen schools
    Lia Rikugun: in the bible too i believe
    Solobill Laville: Yes
    Solobill Laville: And some Korean Zen schools emphasize "simple mind" in the everyday world
    Fefonz Quan: Yes Solo i've heard that
    Solobill Laville: not thinking about thinking
    Fefonz Quan: but then i don't think we want to get back to that baby consciousness
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Solobill Laville: no, buut the baby doesn't judge and divide all of these things.
    Scathach Rhiadra: the baby is also intensely driven by very simple needs, like hunger
    Solobill Laville: What does a baby think when he/she see brown hair?
    Fefonz Quan: yes Solo, we don't either while practicing
    Fefonz Quan: i guess he sees a direct experience without concepts
    Scathach Rhiadra: If the baby got a hold of the hair it would probably try to put it in its mouth
    Fefonz Quan: yes Scath, before that stage
    Solobill Laville: I'd posit not even seeing a direct experience, but simply directly experiencing :)
    Lia Rikugun: (during the week end I visited an exhibition (the guggenheim museum) there were paintings of Franz marc who has animals in this paintings because he says they show or feel the real nature in things)
    doug Sosa: iamgine you had a crush on the person with the hair. it would look very different. the baaby always has a crush, which is sometimes frustrated.
    Lia Rikugun: (I dont remembver ther exact wordings..)
    Fefonz Quan: why does the baby has a crush doug?
    doug Sosa: on mother, and everything is potentially that mother, so gaze is motivated.
    Wol Euler: I think that's true, though, my impression is that babies love everyone they see
    Fefonz Quan: he doesn't see the mother resting in the cradle
    Wol Euler: up to a certain age at least
    Fefonz Quan: i wuld agree with Solo about experiencing directly, hence my question
    Solobill Laville: I think it was Hegel who suggested that consciousness, as in I can see that I am, is what causes our sense of seperation
    Wol Euler: but I do think there is a difference between the no-mind of an adult meditating well, and a baby's thoughtless delight
    Fefonz Quan: So the babe has a non-dual view
    Solobill Laville: I would guess this happens around 2-4 years old
    Scathach Rhiadra: and animals are driven by their instincts
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Wol! It is like traveling the world to realize how much you love home :)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Fefonz Quan: So what is the difference Wol?
    Lia Rikugun: babys have insticnts as well
    Wol Euler: the adult can judge, but doesn't. The baby cannot yet judge.
    Lia Rikugun: or reflexes
    Fefonz Quan: so they end up in the same state
    Wol Euler: I'm not certain that they do.
    Fefonz Quan: coming from different paths
    Wol Euler: the adult is aware that s/he is being non-judgemental
    Fefonz Quan: that just points out how hard it is for an adult to reach that state
    Fefonz Quan: but is the baby state desirable?
    Fefonz Quan: (we presume it is for an adult, hence we are all here, playing as being)
    Lia Rikugun: I dont have an answer to this fef
    Solobill Laville: A simple honest mind, is desirable, I think
    Solobill Laville: But as adults we can help others
    Scathach Rhiadra: a baby doesn't shoose to be non-judgmental, it just doesn't yet know any better
    Scathach Rhiadra: choose*
    Fefonz Quan: better?
    Wol Euler: yes, scath, that is where I was heading.
    Scathach Rhiadra: or different
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Lia Rikugun: open embrqcing the world
    Lia Rikugun: *embracing
    Wol Euler: there is a difference between having a knife and not using it, and having no knife.
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Solobill Laville: I think a baby hasn't yet put a stake in the ground
    Solobill Laville: saying "I am different that you"
    Solobill Laville: Which is what some of perhaps are trying to overcome :)
    Solobill Laville: *than
    Fefonz Quan: exactly
    Solobill Laville: *us
    Fefonz Quan: So the last notes are pointing to the moral issue of "what am i doing with this clear view"
    Fefonz Quan: but before we go there, i find it difficult to believe taht all we are aiming at we achieved when babies and lost now
    Fefonz Quan: and hard to believe that's what we're trying to do
    Wol Euler: I'm certainly not aiming at anything more than being less unhappy more often :)
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Fefonz Quan: double negations are always tricky for me Wol :)
    Wol Euler smiles. But I deliberately didn't say "being happy", that is a different matter.
    Solobill Laville: All the thoughts of "loss" or "gain' are themselves part of the muddy water
    Fefonz Quan: maddy waters?
    Solobill Laville: perhaps best to just let those go too?
    Fefonz Quan hum pubum, pubum, yeah yeah
    Wol Euler: I try. And it does help.
    Fefonz Quan: i also thing we aim to reduce suffering in some way
    Fefonz Quan dodge a pillow thrown by Pema:)
    Solobill Laville points to something practical that Wol just offered, with a voucher :)
    Wol Euler: mm?
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Solobill Laville: I think that is true Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: so why does being like a new born baby should help at this?
    Lia Rikugun: embracing the world as it is
    Fefonz Quan: (ignorance is bliss comes to mind)
    Lia Rikugun: try to change it
    Lia Rikugun: if not possible then what can you do
    Solobill Laville: In order to see clearly, we need the windshield cleaned off a bit
    Solobill Laville: But once we can see clearly, then that kind of compassion is a natural outgrowth
    Solobill Laville: Not so the case in ignorance
    Lia Rikugun: i think it is impronatnt to have both views, the baby and the adult view
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe to see and appreciate appearances like for the first time, but without actually becoming like a baby
    Wol Euler: me nods
    Fefonz Quan: so babies are naturally compassionate and happy?
    Lia Rikugun: there are babies crying all the time
    Solobill Laville: no, I think to what Wol and Kia have said
    Fefonz Quan: yep, Lia
    Solobill Laville: You need to have the separation to come back home
    Solobill Laville: -> Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: yet home wasn't so nice to start with
    Fefonz Quan: so maybe we'll get there and see it was not what ew were looking for
    Solobill Laville: Home = Being = Suchness = God
    Wol Euler: ... which is still a valuable thing to learn
    Wol Euler: /me's eyes widen. Interesting, Solo ...
    Fefonz Quan: complex word for me Solo
    Fefonz Quan: words*
    Solobill Laville: (yes, use your own word here ;)
    Wol Euler: (I remember that "Suchness" came up in a log some time back, but what does it mean again?)
    Fefonz Quan: but if we've been there and it wasn't nice, i again?
    Fefonz Quan: why again *
    Lia Rikugun: we can never go back again, we gained more experiences
    Lia Rikugun: it is not the same home
    Fefonz Quan: we loosed more experiences in a sense
    Wol Euler nods
    Fefonz Quan: lost*
    Solobill Laville: (suchness is a more "positive" Buddhist term for the nature of ultimate reality -> Wol)
    Wol Euler: ty
    Solobill Laville: [13:45] Fefonz Quan: but if we've been there and it wasn't nice, i again?
    Solobill Laville: Been where, and how not nice, Fefonz?
    Wol Euler: is taht like Heidegger's "Dasein" perhaps?
    Lia Rikugun: (have to read this up)
    Fefonz Quan: well, if babies are there, and they are not compassionate and happy
    Fefonz Quan: that's not nice
    Solobill Laville: sorry guys, brb
    Fefonz Quan: what is Dasein Wol?
    Wol Euler: Beingness, in a word
    Wol Euler: Heidegger was also interested in the "world-ness" of the world, wanting to express the fact-ness of it.
    Fefonz Quan: suchness sounds like world-ness i guess(ness) :)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Wol Euler: his philosophy overlaps (IMHO) with wu wei, with the just-being-ness of the world.
    Wol Euler: (I should point out htat I am not a philosopher, nor have I studied this in depth)
    Solobill Laville: back
    Fefonz Quan: wb
    Scathach Rhiadra: brb
    Fefonz Quan still holds to the question
    Wol Euler: he was fascinated by appearance and perception, there is also an overlap with phenomenology
    Lia Rikugun: (are we better than babies or animals just because we think we understand more?)
    Scathach Rhiadra: back
    Solobill Laville: Dasein sounds like - just is
    Fefonz Quan: not better, surely
    Wol Euler: yes, that's right. The Being-ness of things.
    Lia Rikugun: so we are all same
    Lia Rikugun: so what is the state we want to reach?
    Lia Rikugun: what is the best one?
    Lia Rikugun: noone
    Lia Rikugun: no one
    Solobill Laville: experiencing directly that awareness of sameness in everything
    Solobill Laville: (speaks humbly for himself...)
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Wol Euler: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Fefonz Quan: and is that experience goes through dissolving concepts?
    Lia Rikugun: not sure
    Lia Rikugun: it might be
    Solobill Laville: it's just that concepts don't work
    Wol Euler: for certain values of "don't"
    Solobill Laville: yet many folks try to logic it our
    Fefonz Quan: and no-concepts work?
    Solobill Laville: *out
    Fefonz Quan: i guess it's coming back to teh good old question will the truth set us free?
    Fefonz Quan: question:*
    Solobill Laville: Is the absence of concepts no-concepts? Or is no-concepts itself a type of conceptualization?
    Lia Rikugun: we are free we just dont know it ;)
    Fefonz Quan: the ice cream i can't taste is not sweet, sorry :)
    Solobill Laville: that concepts / no-concepts thing is still part of the duality quagmire
    Wol Euler: "we are rattling the bars of a cage that isn't locked"
    Lia Rikugun: there is no cage
    Lia Rikugun: :D
    Wol Euler: or that, maybe.
    Solobill Laville: Rattle
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: I think a baby just in like this...HAIR!
    Solobill Laville: *is
    Fefonz Quan: exactly my point Solo, and that's wht bothered me
    Fefonz Quan: i think also he is like this, and he doesn't seem to me as in a place i would rather be in
    Lia Rikugun: if you would be in his state you wouldnt matter
    Solobill Laville: Yes, but as some of those traditions say, "be LIKE a child", not "be a child"...
    Lia Rikugun: this is you thinking this now
    Lia Rikugun: fef
    Wol Euler: It is perhaps worth remembering that people in monasteries tend not to have children :) They were picking their illustrations without much diret experience.
    Fefonz Quan: this is no-me non-thinking it :)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods @ Wol:)
    Lia Rikugun: thats true
    Fefonz Quan: so maybe this is the root to happiness Wol ;-)
    Solobill Laville: Yes, and Wol, I think too that contemplation helped them to see that type of simplicity, perhaps from their own youth, as somewhat desirable to "settle the mind" perhaps
    Fefonz Quan: it's coffee time (meaning Dreams at Kira)
    Lia Rikugun: we try to reach things we are not
    Solobill Laville: :) Bye for now
    Fefonz Quan: though i am the GoC, so there is a conflict....
    Wol Euler: not for me, I need to get to bed. It's been a hard week and it's only half over
    Lia Rikugun: instead of just being
    Solobill Laville: Well, I am staying here Fef, so I can send you any more text
    Lia Rikugun: i need to go as well actually
    Fefonz Quan: good night Wol, hope you endure that week and enjoy the way too
    Scathach Rhiadra: its the walk through of the Kira celebration too:)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, right, so are we calling the session over?
    Wol Euler: actually the logger will record everything up until the session stops, it doesn't stop listening when teh person who claimed the session leaves
    Solobill Laville: Oh, I could to that Scath, is that at Kira or off site?
    Scathach Rhiadra: at Kira I think
    Solobill Laville: Well, sounds like we may be done :)
    Fefonz Quan: i should claim it
    Wol Euler: mmhmm (to both)
    Solobill Laville: Night Wol :)
    Wol Euler: goodnight my dears, take care. be happy
    Scathach Rhiadra: night Wol:)
    Fefonz Quan: tc Wol
    Lia Rikugun: byebye everybody
    Solobill Laville: Think I'll fly...Bye Lia
    Fefonz Quan: see you all at the cafe :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia:0


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