2009.02.18 07:00 - I Do Not Exist

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    The Acting Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

     I arrived at the pavilion to find Doug and Susi in conversation. Thanks to the autologer their words are recorded for posterity

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    doug Sosa: morning (here)
    Susi Alcott: morning doug
    doug Sosa: I am on a short battery so can only stay a few minutes.
    Susi Alcott: sad
    Susi Alcott: hi Adams
    doug Sosa: well, all is well actually.
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble: Good morning Doug and Susi
    Adams Rubble: No guardian here again?
    Susi Alcott: hoping you to get time to read the log after your leaving
    doug Sosa: we can play!
    doug Sosa: You know, my life has so much reading, i just do not read the logs.
    Susi asks Doug about his thoughts on not knowing 'self'
    Susi Alcott: I'm looking foreward to hear your mind what I spoke for that -not-knowing-self
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    doug Sosa: What if we justdrop thoughts of "self"? Then if there seems to be a need for thinking "self" it would be interesting to explore that state of mind and experience.
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble: Yes, but I am finding it hard to just drop "self" whenever i want
    Adams Rubble: I was able to do it last night for the first time in weeks
    Susi Alcott: I've used to experience the best with the though 'I do not exist'
    Adams Rubble: Hmmm
    Susi Alcott: as there's always the good feeling with the thought of the piece of the truth
    doug Sosa: i suspect that "i do not exist" is still thinking about self. If we drop it and just be with the experience all seems to go well.
    Susi Alcott: and that is the thought which has given me the most near feeling with the pure truth
    Adams Rubble: We have to start somewhere :)
    Susi Alcott: agree with you doug; that's still thinking me
    doug Sosa: you don't have to start somewhere, we ar alrady in motion, on the trip, alive. It is impossible to start.
    Susi Alcott: yet, ment that it's the best thought how I have 'explaned' to myself what I am :)
    Adams Rubble: What I meant is that we have to find our way to dop the self
    doug Sosa: well, i think you are your experience. pure mind tends to be zero mind.
    Adams Rubble: drop
    I get corrected on my terminology. Yes it is not self that is dropped but the identities and atachments
    Susi Alcott: why should anybody drop the self ?
    Adams Rubble: To see without the self, Susi
    Then Doug helps me find a way to start
    doug Sosa: no need (so talkative this morning!) to drop mind. just don't pick it up. There is a process in which mind or self comes to mind. at that moment let it go by, don't touch it.
    Adams Rubble: Well that's someplace to star :)
    Adams Rubble: start
    Adams Rubble: thanks :)
    Susi Alcott: _(!\_
    Susi Alcott: to concentrate to other persons is also kind of dropping the self
    doug Sosa: "having been on the trip i discovered I wanted to start..":)
    Susi Alcott: yet, that is not such 'no' to self; it 'just goes' away
    doug Sosa: Thoughts of self or mind seem to me to always block out being with our experience.
    doug Sosa: And usually come with slight amounts of anxiety.
    doug Sosa: right not "no self", just let it fade.
    Adams Rubble: I think thoughts of self can come with fellings of pleasure or anxiety. We are more likely to notice the anxiety
    Susi Alcott: _(!\_
    doug Sosa: pleasure is about something. if we pay more attention to that something and less to self i think it goes well.
    Adams Rubble: Hello Samuel
    Susi Alcott: take that it's also more than good thing to notice for anxiety taht it's ourself's feeling :)))
    Susi Alcott: hi Sam
    doug Sosa: A good example is stuying for an exam. thoughts of self when we should be noticing the text.
    Adams Rubble: yes Doug
    Samuel arrives and Doug leaves
    Samuel Okelly:
    Samuel Okelly: ( @ @ )
    Samuel Okelly: ...o00o.(_).o00o...
    Samuel Okelly: (( HELLO EVERY1! ! ! ! ))
    Samuel Okelly:
    doug Sosa: his sam
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_>doug
    doug Sosa: my battery is dying so need to go charge.. bye.
    Adams Rubble: bye Doug. thanks
    Susi Alcott: bye doug
    Samuel Okelly: hope it ws nothing i said doug ;-)
    Adams Rubble: That was a useful discussion :)
    Susi Alcott: no
    Adams Rubble: no?
    Susi Alcott: his battery had no power
    Adams Rubble: oh, you are talking to Sam. hehe
    Samuel Okelly: how ironic :)
    Susi Alcott: :)
    Adams Rubble: whew!
    Susi Alcott: not only typos makes often fun :)))))
    Adams Rubble: All this time I have been thinking of dropping self...never a thought of just not going there\
    Adams Rubble: Sometimes things are just so simple and we make them so hard for ourselves
    Susi Alcott: _(!\_
    Adams Rubble: And yet I have done it many times and just not noticed
    Susi Alcott: not any good to say 'no' to something so important than self is
    Susi Alcott: smiles
    Adams Rubble: But we don;t have to say no
    Adams Rubble: we just pat it on the head and say "It's Okay" :)
    Susi Alcott: well...as to me to drop something is to say 'no' to that something
    Adams Rubble: It felt so good last night to be able to see past my self :)
    Samuel asks about 'dropping' and we spend the rest of the morning on the topic
    Samuel Okelly: any idea of "dropping" will appear to suggest a denial of part of what we are to most people i imagine
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: that truely is releafing
    Adams Rubble: Yes Sam, people tend to not to want to understand
    Adams Rubble: but often we need to come to God with less :)
    Susi Alcott: that is the most common reaction, but to some people it is for help to learn
    Samuel Okelly: suggest it is a choice sounds just a bit like condescension
    Adams Rubble: I resisted a great deal last June when I came into PaB. I could not understand what an identity or atachment was
    Adams Rubble: I thought it was like name, rank and seral number
    Adams Rubble: not anger, fear or desire
    Susi Alcott: well; you are not anger fear or desire
    Susi Alcott: that is not you
    Adams Rubble: no...that is what we have...not what we are :)
    Susi Alcott: that is living
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: yes Susi :)
    Adams Rubble: _/!\_
    Samuel Okelly: many people feel unable to "drop" negative feelings even if it were desirable, so no choice is involved
    Susi Alcott: that sure is even very good way to start to deal with any negative feeling
    Susi Alcott: then one can see it better and learn it's reasons
    Susi Alcott: and the most best is that then one doun't behave based on it
    Adams Rubble: Or we can simply realize that we can't come to God with negative feelings
    Adams Rubble: we must put them aside and come as a little child
    Susi Alcott: that's one of the most difficult thing in SL, that people can log out and leave themselves alone when they feel hurted
    Susi Alcott: that in RL there's usually time to drop and still stay with friends
    Adams Rubble: yes, that can happen Susi. But also in SL, we can more easily hide our hurt
    Adams Rubble: and thus work through it
    Samuel Okelly: i agree with you on that last point adams but im having trouble linking this to the idea of an ability of "dropping" negativity
    Samuel brings up multiple selves while we continue with previous thoughts. I wonder if Sam knows about all my selves
    Samuel Okelly: i think it was derrida who spoke of "multiple selves"
    Adams Rubble: I struggled with this for a long time Sam
    Susi Alcott: not letting the bad to grow for not having change to observe within friends what happened in fact
    Adams Rubble: Yes, Susi, that can happen
    Susi Alcott: sure nobody can truely just drop anything; all must be handled
    Adams Rubble has many selves :)
    Susi Alcott: but the thought to drop gives some distance - maybe- that one can study the bad thing more objectively
    Adams Rubble: Pema uses the word "subtract"
    Susi Alcott: occured to my mind my sisters words that as many languages one speaks, as many persons one is
    Susi Alcott: I'm very laggy today because I cannot use my wordbook at all...
    Adams Rubble: sorry Susi
    Susi Alcott: for pc probs
    Samuel notes we need to do an honest appraisal of what we are
    Samuel Okelly: Whilst as a Christian I believe the words of Jesus when he said "no one can come to the Father except through me" and that furthermorewhen He said "I am the way the truth and the light".
    Samuel Okelly: I believe this calls us all to make a truthful and entirely honest appraisal of who and what we are
    Adams Rubble: yes Sam!
    Susi Alcott: that can also be understood highlighting 'me' and 'I'
    Susi Alcott: it can also be understood that Love is the way
    Adams Rubble was thinking about love too
    Susi Alcott: as I dont know any religion or culture that Jesus wouldn't been known as the symbol of Love
    Samuel Okelly: aren't we called (not just as Christians) to recognise who and what we are in all honesty.., eg sometimes generous, but sometimes selfish too?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Susi Alcott: indeed
    Susi Alcott: that is the way imo
    Meanwhile Susi introdcuses the idea of a present of Life to us and how we can be a present to Life
    Susi Alcott: to know oneself and accept 'it' as it is
    Susi Alcott: all and each one has got a present from God/Life
    Susi Alcott: that persent is Life
    Susi Alcott: each one who's chooced to keep that present
    Susi Alcott: is the present to Life
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Samuel Okelly: this is at the core of my faith
    Adams Rubble: So we can choose to be a present To Life :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Samuel Okelly: i.e. that life is a gift and uniquely precious in every case
    Adams Rubble: If we let it, love can see through fear, anger and desire
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: and melt fear and anger and give bright light to desire
    Susi Alcott: how ever could anybody create anything so beautiful but with desire and passion whithin love
    We are using different language but zeroing in on understanding each other
    Samuel Okelly: it is an apparent innate selfishness that holds us back i think
    Susi Alcott: which is based on irrelevant fears
    Adams Rubble: And does not have to hold us back
    Samuel Okelly: i think it is based on ignorance
    Samuel Okelly: we have within us a desire to "go-it-alone" as it were
    Adams Rubble: not knowing ourselves
    Susi Alcott: and that's based on many things that each one still is innocent
    Susi Alcott: and that surely is also the needed natural desire
    Susi Alcott: independency
    Susi Alcott: afterall it's always the question of balance
    Samuel Okelly: i disagree susi
    Susi Alcott: some things need the passion to break the balance
    Susi Alcott: some things needs to get to the balance
    Susi Alcott: surely nobody can be completely independet
    Samuel Okelly: i recognise the need for balance but not the objective of independency
    Adams Rubble: Many time we find it hard to find the words when we get close to the truth
    Adams Rubble: Language is so limited
    Susi Alcott: each one simply is one's own self
    Susi Alcott: self is to be independent
    Susi Alcott: free will
    Adams Rubble: We come to God each of us independently
    Susi Alcott: that's just that so many people seems to make there best that this right is kind of taken
    Samuel Okelly: when we consider the expanse of creation and it's intricate detail, it seems only logical to believe there are bigger things at play here than just ourselves
    Adams Rubble: We are ready or not ready
    Adams Rubble: We individually musdt deal with our own fears and desires in order to see the entire world clearly
    Adams Rubble: the entire universe
    Susi compares our learning to see to building while Samuel questions how we recognize clarity
    Susi Alcott: kind of story rises for my try to tell better what I mean
    Adams Rubble: or creation
    Susi Alcott: as some persons can build alone only
    Samuel Okelly: how do you think we recognise clarity adams?
    Susi Alcott: some persona can build only with the presens of friend
    Susi Alcott: so; what is meant to build, that would be good to chooce the builder
    Susi Alcott: to live own life is independency
    Adams Rubble: For me, the few times it has happened, I felt all the pain and anxiety drift away Sam and I felt that I experienced God
    Susi Alcott: sometimes we need to be such kind of builder who builds alone and sometimes such that needs a friend
    Adams Rubble listening to Susi's story
    Adams Rubble: ah yes :)
    Adams Rubble: at the same time being careful not to be too needy :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble greatly treasures the friends that have helped in PaB :)
    Susi defines clarity beautifully and Samuel begins to understand it in terms of cleaning windows
    Susi Alcott: clarity is so bright that there's no questions left
    Adams Rubble: YES!!!
    Adams Rubble: beautifully put
    Adams Rubble: You know it when you see it :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Samuel Okelly: I do not see the dirt on my windows build up…., it takes my dear wife to draw a line across them before I see it
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: That is a good analogy Sam
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ _/!\__/!\_
    Adams Rubble: We must wash our own dirt from our eye windows
    Samuel Okelly: well i can see out and people can see in and i see no dirt but once the line is drawn i can only see the dirt whenever i look at the window
    Adams Rubble: Sometimes it is hard to see the dirt there, yes :)
    Adams Rubble: very hard...but it is there
    Susi Alcott: so wonderful if one can listen to the best friend and supporter
    Susi Alcott: wife, husband or a friend
    Samuel Okelly: not wishing to kill th analogy but my point is that if we dont always see things unless are looking for them?
    Sam asks how we detrmine what to look and while Fael arrives, Susi and I try to answer
    Samuel Okelly: so how do we determine what to look for?
    Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
    Samuel Okelly: hi fael :)
    Susi Alcott: hi Fael
    Susi Alcott: observing other peoples rspndings
    Adams Rubble: We must just look. The nine second exercises help
    Fael Illyar: Hi Susi, Adams, Samuel :)
    Adams Rubble: stopping what we are doing and observing what is there
    Fael Illyar is in train at the moment with cellphone connection so ... might be a bit unstable
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: and possibly can't stay for very long as I know the connection will cut at some point.
    Adams Rubble: It is after time anyway fael :)
    Fael Illyar: Ah, true :)
    Fael Illyar: so, what did I interrupt? :)
    Susi Alcott: nothing
    Adams Rubble: Pema has a number of exercises and various ones have helped me at various times but it comes down to looking
    Adams Rubble: bye Susi
    Samuel Okelly: I wanted to play my nephew a song…, in short he didn’t realise that besides his dad’s record play, the range of black discs actually played music like CDs
    Susi Alcott: feel now the 'whole' to appear like this
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: ah you moved Susi :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Susi Alcott: not with the meaning to go more far
    Adams Rubble: I am going to have to go. I will post the log when everyone is done
    Susi Alcott: but to 'build' the 'whole'
    Samuel Okelly: tc adams :)
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Adams :)
    Samuel Okelly: thanks for teh chat every1 :) cheerio for now :)
    Adams Rubble: bye all. Have a very nice day or evening :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
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