2009.02.19 07:00 - Contentious Ethics

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    This discussion went on for a good while and sometimes the comments were stacked up on each other faster than you could read them  .... I logged 1.5 hours of it - CH


    Susi Alcott: hi Fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Susi, Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: hi Susi, hi Fael :)
    Susi Alcott: hi Cal
    Caledonia Heron: how's it going today?
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: Good here, how about there? :)
    Caledonia Heron: good for me :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_



    Caledonia Heron: we are having the kira birthday party next Tuesday - maybe you saw my email to the google group?
    Susi Alcott: hi Adams
    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
    Caledonia Heron: hey Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Susi, Fael and Cal :)
    Susi Alcott: smiles
    Caledonia Heron: your Kira booth looks Great!! Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Thank you Cal . Storm put everything together. We just supplied the objects
    Caledonia Heron: yep :) good teamwork
    Adams Rubble: It's a very nice setup. You all have been working hard :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, there has been a good bit of coordination :)
    Caledonia Heron: still sorting through a good portion of it



    Fael Illyar smiles 'I always feel weird getting praised for work I've done only partly, with other people.'
    Adams Rubble: there is much going on
    Caledonia Heron: yes Adams
    Caledonia Heron: that's interesting Fael as I was just working on a piece about collaborative activities ... it is and will continue to increase in the future - the way more jobs get done in social media ... imo
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I can see that :)
    Fael Illyar: less and less things end up being really just your own thing ... well, if anything can be really called that. :)
    Adams Rubble: we can always take praise as "you" plural
    Fael Illyar: Ah, now I get it. I've felt like all that praise doesn't belong to me but not known what to do with it :)
    Adams Rubble: Then take it lightly. hehe
    Caledonia Heron: yes, I think more work products will be overtly attributed at the group level, not the originator or boss level
    Fael Illyar: if I image part of it flowing to the others, it'll solve the problem :)
    Caledonia Heron: this may have significant implications for grad school slavery :)
    Adams Rubble: grad school slavery !!?!
    Caledonia Heron: a weak joke about the heirarchy of grad school where the student does all or most of the work and the prof gets all of the credit :)
    Adams Rubble: I know Cal :)
    Caledonia Heron: lol, sorry, too serious ... a sore spot :)
    Adams Rubble: I was reacting in a pretend shocked manner
    Caledonia Heron: lol, yes of course :)
    Caledonia Heron: shocking, simply shocking I tell you!!!



    Adams Rubble: There may be more of that in the sciences where there is more money
    Caledonia Heron: not much money flowing the last 8 years but maybe in the future :)
    Caledonia Heron: a scientific drought of sorts
    Adams Rubble: From the humanities it looks like lots of dough :)
    Caledonia Heron: good, much kneaded :) ha ha
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Caledonia Heron: hopefully good projects will rise from that
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble waiting for next bread joke
    Fael Illyar has the feeling we're achieving more right here at PaB ... even if we're not producing papers.
    Caledonia Heron: lol, tempted but I will rye-sist
    Fael Illyar: ... actually, I'm not sure if it can be said we're not producing papers :P
    Adams Rubble giggles



    Adams Rubble: We have opportunities here
    Caledonia Heron: interesting Fael .... I have considered this group, pab in general, to be a sort of collective intelligence experiment
    Caledonia Heron: achieving something in the realm of quantifing shared experience hopefully
    Adams Rubble is just a novice
    Caledonia Heron: we're all just bozos on this bus :)
    Adams Rubble: bozos !!?!
    Fael Illyar: is there someone who is something other?
    Adams Rubble looks for a clown nose
    Caledonia Heron: shocking I tell you, simply shocking!!!
    Caledonia Heron: other than ourself Fael?
    Fael Illyar: something other than "bozo" :)



    Susi Alcott: hi Thomas
    Caledonia Heron: lol, bozo, dreamer, ditch digger, geek, .... different names, same energy :)
    Adams Rubble is giving up buses for this new teleporting thing
    Fael Illyar: sure :P
    Fael Illyar: buses are nice but they can't take you everywhere :)
    Fael Illyar: always necessary to walk to get where you're going.
    Caledonia Heron: I was imagining the metaverse as it will exist for say 8th graders when they are our ages ..... maybe they will teleport :)
    Caledonia Heron: what consciousness will be shared when we no longer distinguish between real and virtual lives, when we go from being inside google earth while being our virtual persona to bringing cookies to a classroom ..... it's going to be a whole different brainset
    Caledonia Heron: maybe our brains will be wired differently to encompass all the possible consciousness-es ..... not a word but could be :)
    Fael Illyar: it will certainly blur the lines between real and virtual :)
    Fael Illyar: what else is there that's different?
    Caledonia Heron: I think the line will disappear Fael
    Fael Illyar: yes, blur it enough and that happens :)



    Adams Rubble: It may just be a matter of everyone having a chance to participate
    Caledonia Heron: it will perhaps be the dissolution of mental compartments
    Adams Rubble: so many are left out now
    Caledonia Heron: yes, what of the equity of the metaverse?



    Adams Rubble: Hello Corvi :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Corvi :)
    Caledonia Heron: hi Corvi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: `Hi all!
    Susi Alcott: hi Cor
    Caledonia Heron: how are you today Corvi?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: very well, you?
    Caledonia Heron: good :)
    Caledonia Heron: I was considering the future embodiment or perhaps disembodiment of the metaverse before I arrived here so we are kind of kicking that around :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks about this....hmmm
    Caledonia Heron: one strand of that is the notion that a group like pab is a type of collective intelligence
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh YES!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grabs this idea eagerly.
    Caledonia Heron: do you think that sometimes a collective intelligence permeates beyond it's local neighborhood?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: this one has touched many people through me, I feel certain.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: like a virus..like a meme.
    Caledonia Heron: how does that ripple through the larger "hive" of intelligence? are there effects we can observe? all kinds of interesting questions
    Corvuscorva Nightfire listens, and thinks.
    Caledonia Heron: yes Corvi, one touches 2 which touches 5 which touches ..... an exponential expansion



    Fael Illyar: and also the question of exactly which channels do these ripples use to move about?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Samuel :)
    Susi Alcott: hi Sam
    Adams Rubble: Hello Samuel, tuco
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Sam. "Heya!"
    Caledonia Heron: yes Fael, interesting, .... spoken, unspoken undercurrents, both, vibes???
    Samuel Okelly:
    Samuel Okelly:             (  @ @ )
    Samuel Okelly:    ...o00o.(_).o00o...
    Samuel Okelly:  (( HELLO  EVERY1! ! ! ! ))
    Samuel Okelly:
    Susi Alcott: hi taco
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: in my life..they move partly just in the way I have changed in the last few months.
    Caledonia Heron: so as we ourselves change we influence the fabric of which we are a part?
    Caledonia Heron: hi Samuel :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!__>Cor
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. very much so.
    Caledonia Heron: in that way Corvi we are all emissaries perhaps :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
    Caledonia Heron: how are you today Samuel?
    Samuel Okelly: i am good thanks :)
    Samuel Okelly: how is every1?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: very well.
    Fael Illyar is good too.
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Caledonia Heron: good .... we were musing on the future of the metaverse, the impact of personal activities on near and extended groups, the power of group intelligence



    Caledonia Heron: anyone care to share their 9sec or other meditation experiences?
    Samuel Okelly: Interesting…, particularly as I am considering the effectiveness of starting a Pro-Life group here on sl
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adams Rubble: I think I see it more than the way we have touched each other than how I might have changed in the real world. I don;t have a clue to the latter
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Adams..that too!
    Samuel Okelly: Have been considering what my personal activity and that of such a group can have on others
    Caledonia Heron: pro-life as in get a life, get off your computer or pro-life as regards child bearing?



    Caledonia Heron: for sure Adams, how we touch each other is very personal and important
    Caledonia Heron: I think that these personal connections and how that affects our interactions with others beyond bears directly on social collective consciousness
    Samuel Okelly: it would be pro-life as in opponents of abortion.. however I am deliberating what ethical purpose such a group can serve as well as what literal function it could also serve
    Caledonia Heron: what would be the purpose of such a group Samuel?
    Samuel Okelly: limited
    Samuel Okelly: a valuable purpose would allow people with a pro-life view to clearly identify themselves as being such here in sl
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: this group works well because we support each other in a commen goal.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: we "work" together on a project.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: an odd one..but a clearly defined one, too.
    Caledonia Heron: for sure Corvi, I would agree that participating at the group level supports commonality
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it keeps us coming back.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or keeps me coming back, anyway.



    Samuel Okelly: the goal of this group is met in the discussion where as the goal of the group that I am proposing would be met in it’s membership (i.e. being visibly a part of it)
    Caledonia Heron: I wonder if there are pro-choice groups in sl
    Adams Rubble wondering if there are virtual abortions
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: either way..most groups seem very loose and don't require much to do...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which is useful, too.
    Samuel Okelly: i would personally prefer a group to discuss matters of a contentious ethical nature but experience shows me they mainly attract the extremes
    Caledonia Heron: wow, that is an extension of an extension isn't it Adams? how far does one actually role-play, to the point of such an extreme
    Samuel Okelly: i know there are virtual pregnancies here on sl
    Adams Rubble has a date with a dentist and his drills. Bye everyone :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there are pregancies here.
    Samuel Okelly: tc adams
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye adams..hope it's not too bad!
    Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)



    Caledonia Heron: if you are interested in exploring contentious ethics perhaps it would be more straightforward to establish a group called "contentious ethics" of which the pro-life, pro-choice discussion would be one thread
    Samuel Okelly: i agree
    Samuel Okelly: it would IF
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oooohhhh
    Samuel Okelly: such groups did not attract extreme ppl
    Caledonia Heron: then you could "discuss" a whole basket of messy issues :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Sam.
    Samuel Okelly: that assumes that the ppl who join are capable of "discussion"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it is hard to figure out how to "discuss" such issues...even people who aren't extreme feel so passionately about them, they are hard to discuss.
    Caledonia Heron: if the group were structured as such I think people would respect that
    Samuel Okelly: i am implying no value judgment here just that it is clear because by their nature they are exceptionally “emotive” and “contentious” issues
    Fael Illyar: the group founder would need to do something to make it less attractive to the extreme people.
    Caledonia Heron: we seemed to have reached a middle ground here on procedure and we are by no means from the same backgrounds
    Samuel Okelly: i agree... i enjoy most of the chats here
    Caledonia Heron: sure Samuel, people get caught up on their opnions on stuff like that
    Caledonia Heron: maybe a "I know how I feel, what do I think" approach might work
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh, Cal!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmmhmm
    Caledonia Heron: that could be the entrance requirement:)



    Samuel Okelly: sure...'was considering the benefit of such a group to be one that would allow people an expression of a strongly held view without being imposing on anyone else
    Caledonia Heron: truly a discussion forum for sticky issues .... a kind of check your weapons and opinions at the door kind of thing
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Fael Illyar: I have to say that something about that seems self-conflicting ...
    Samuel Okelly: In the first instance it would NOT be to hold meeting denouncing abortion
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what's that, Fael?
    Caledonia Heron: of course not, that's why I suggested a broader umbrella, if I understand correctly you are interested in exploring ethics, not that particular issue
    Caledonia Heron: re self-conflicting ... it IS possible to hold two opposing thoughts at once :)
    Fael Illyar: Cal, yes, altough that tends to be somewhat ... painful.
    Samuel Okelly: i am personally cal but have only come to realise that since I began to approach ethics from the view of abortion as an issue
    Caledonia Heron: lol, at least uncomfortable Fael:)
    Caledonia Heron: understood Samuel, and .... abortion is a narrow focus, highly personal and a certain trigger ... perhaps that is the type of issue you want to explore ethically ....
    Samuel Okelly: It is my understanding that many ppl of a pro-life view feel helpless and unable to stem the flow of the tide
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's not ethics, exactly though.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's action...right?
    Fael Illyar: Ah, seems I need to go now. See you later Everyone.
    Caledonia Heron: bye Fael :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Fa.



    Samuel Okelly: such a group would allow them to make a public statement of their view which, in turn, would encourage others who are sympathetic too
    Caledonia Heron: agreed, that description does not sound like ethics
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Samuel Okelly: bye fael
    Caledonia Heron: what you are describing sounds like a political statement group not an ethics exploration group
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..right, Sam..which is different, than ethics..though useful to a group who wants to act?
    Samuel Okelly: I agree.. the issue is an ethical one but the group would serve another physical need
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.



    Susi Alcott: so sry but I am very out of the topic cuz I have no idea what is the meaning of that group
    Susi Alcott: that's much because of my lag in english
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sam..can you describe what pro life means to you?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and i can describe what pro choice means if you need that, Susi.
    Caledonia Heron: no worries Susi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what it means to me.
    Samuel Okelly: i do now wish to be guilty of digression here
    Samuel Okelly: it is the respect for human life from conception until natural death
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Susi Alcott: may I ask what is pro life ?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: pro choice to me.. means..allowing each person to respect their own life from conception to natural death...and...suggests that we each may have different ideas equally valid about when "life" begins.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Sam's definition is pro life
    Samuel Okelly: "the respect for human life from conception until natural death"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the outside of those definitions becomes a debate about whether abortion is ok or not.
    Samuel Okelly: there is no real debate as to when life begins
    Samuel Okelly: medicaly speaking that is
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Susi Alcott: so does the pro life mean the time that baby is inside mom still ?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: i should say "human life" or "personhood" and yes.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does, Susi.



    Samuel Okelly: even pro-choice supporters recognise conception as the beginning of the life process
    Susi Alcott: so which is the question or the purpose
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: please understand, Sam..I'm defining pro choice as i see it.
    Susi Alcott: I yet have not understood that
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and...as i see it.."human life, or personhood" is debatable.
    Samuel Okelly: i understand cor
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and...life...as seperate from the mother...flowy.
    Samuel Okelly: i have had many such conversations before and it is not my intention to digress teh chat here
    Samuel Okelly: "The fusion of the sperm (with 23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (with 23 chromosomes) at fertilization results in a live human being, a single-cell human zygote, with 46 chromosomes-the number of chromosomes characteristic of an individual member of the human species. "-Dianne N. Irving, M.A., Ph.D
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..smiles..it's ok.
    Samuel Okelly: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so...does that help, Susi?
    Caledonia Heron: is it possible that society as a whole can hold these opposing views, allowing each invidual their respective opinions and free agency to act?



    Susi Alcott: so sorry; there's been even more such words that I dont understand at all
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
    Samuel Okelly: :)
    Susi Alcott: and it mixes me even more
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: does us all, really.
    Susi Alcott: so...I have no idea what you are talking about
    Susi Alcott: and why
    Samuel Okelly: it can be explained simply...
    Susi Alcott: would you pls do that
    Samuel Okelly: life is an ageing process
    Samuel Okelly: unique life starts at conception
    Samuel Okelly: thats it
    Samuel Okelly: some people believe that one person has the right to take the life of anoth
    Samuel Okelly: some people believe we are all created equal
    Caledonia Heron: it's interesting to note the difference between intellectual certainty and the actual real-world requirments of this issue



    Susi Alcott: I do not understand the words 'aging' and conception
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: conception is when the sperm meets egg
    Susi Alcott: aha
    Susi Alcott: well
    Samuel Okelly: ageing is the process of development
    Caledonia Heron: I think Samuel is trying to indicate that there is no separation between the conception and aging process... that it is all a contiuum to be respected ..... correct Samuel?
    Samuel Okelly: wb fael
    Susi Alcott: there's been 'long time' now in my mind such question
    Samuel Okelly: life is an ageing process
    Samuel Okelly: that "process" begins at conception
    Caledonia Heron: while that may be true Samuel, it is perhaps a simplistic argument neglecting personal choice and free agency
    Samuel Okelly: what personal choice?
    Susi Alcott: I think that I could 'answer' to many questions with my question
    Samuel Okelly: whose personal choice?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks..does it begin with conception, sam?
    Susi Alcott: but I have no clear idea what I've been asked now
    Caledonia Heron: the personal choice to be a free agent , free of restrictions imposed by another of differing opinion
    Susi Alcott: but I can tell that I feel very bad
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks..it seems to me..that isn't really the beginning.
    Susi Alcott: very bad



    Samuel Okelly: we all need nurishment and a safe envirnment ...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's just one point along the way.
    Fael Illyar: the process doesn't start at conception. It just keeps going. But that's the first step where you can separate a part of the mother as the child.
    Samuel Okelly: in this respect the zygote is no different to you or me
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: susi...what's amatter?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wait..lets stop for a second...
    Susi Alcott: I just feel so bad
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..
    Samuel Okelly: ..



    Susi Alcott: yet I feel that I'm wished to be present
    Susi Alcott: that's why I've tried to stay
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: this topic is scary for a lot of us.
    Susi Alcott: so; I truely am not clear at all waht I've been asked
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe that's why you feel bad?
    Susi Alcott: not only scary
    Susi Alcott: I take it to be very very horrible
    Samuel Okelly: if it makes anything clearer for you susi , i am not asking you anything
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, frowning in concern.
    Caledonia Heron: it is perhaps outside the scope of this discussion group yet interesting to note that we can freely discuss it without breaking down into a very personal free for all :)



    Susi Alcott: that I felt that you wanted to tell something
    Susi Alcott: not ask
    Susi Alcott: but I feel also asking
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles at Cal.
    Susi Alcott: and request for me to be here
    Susi Alcott: and I indeed have met so many dramas for the event here's been now as the topic
    Susi Alcott: and I myself have long time made my decision
    Susi Alcott: that the most high valued life is the existing life
    Susi Alcott: and what comes to this matter; the existing life is the mother
    Susi Alcott: and imho
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: (in my humble opinion-translation of imho)
    Susi Alcott: that life should never be hurted for any pro or after life
    Caledonia Heron: understood Susi and important to note



    Susi Alcott: I've also seen more such, that the mother has been dragged with 'millions' of 'reasons' that she wouldn't give value to her own life
    Susi Alcott: than that she/they would've been supported to listen to there heart with peace
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, sadly to Susi.
    Samuel Okelly: how to resolve a conflict of rights?
    Susi Alcott: and all that is based on other people's opinion, who's got nothing genuine to do with the life of the pregnant girl in a question
    Susi Alcott: imho
    Caledonia Heron: perhaps it is not required for others to resolve personal rights
    Susi Alcott: all of these girls should be supported to understand the rights of there own existing life
    Samuel Okelly: i think it is ironicly appropriate that here at “pab” we can discuss when our “being” actually begins
    Susi Alcott: and free will to choose
    Samuel Okelly: to choose what exactly susi?
    Fael Illyar: to choose what to do with your own body.
    Susi Alcott: if to keep the unborn baby or to do abortion
    Caledonia Heron: that's interesting Samuel - I would regard that being *is* .... perhaps "begin" is when we might notice it for a second or two :)
    Susi Alcott: there is never the right answer; there is already the pain
    Samuel Okelly: so one person (the mother) should be free to choose whether or not to end the life of another (the baby"?
    Susi Alcott: in case mom needs even to think abortion
    Caledonia Heron: more accurately when we might *first* notice it for a second or two :)
    Susi Alcott: her life is already on that point hurted more than much



    Caledonia Heron: conversely Samuel, should one *other* person decide what someone else should do?
    Samuel Okelly: "if to keep the unborn baby or to do abortion" the unborn baby has no rights just the mother?
    Fael Illyar: up until the baby is capable of supporting itself, it is part of the mother. It hurts to extinguish a part of yourself.
    Caledonia Heron: a tricky question
    Samuel Okelly: i disagree fael
    Samuel Okelly: i do not think that is logical
    Samuel Okelly: " until the baby is capable of supporting itself"



    Caledonia Heron: hi Moon :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi, Moon!
    Samuel Okelly: hi moon
    Moon Fargis: ^^/.
    Susi Alcott: hi Moon
    Samuel Okelly: what about ppl in hospital who can not support themselve?
    Samuel Okelly: what about the mentaly infirm?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...
    Samuel Okelly: children at 1 day old can not support themself



    Caledonia Heron: I must go ... thank you for the discussion :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: those are very difficult questions..
    Samuel Okelly: bye cal
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Cal.
    Moon Fargis: bye cal^^/
    Fael Illyar: bye Cal.
    Fael Illyar: I guess I need to define what I mean with the supporting itself.



    Caledonia Heron: please consider volunteering at the pab booth at the Kira celebration :)
    Samuel Okelly: so if we wait " until the baby is capable of supporting itself" wthe mother will be able to kill the child upuntil the age of 4 or 5
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods to Cal..I think I can come to the end.
    Fael Illyar: able to exist without being directly, physically connected to the mother's body.
    Caledonia Heron: ok Corvi, thanks :)
    Samuel Okelly: that is a completely artificial and arbitary distinction
    Fael Illyar: at that time, someone else can take over.
    Fael Illyar: Samuel, like any other.
    Fael Illyar: before that point, only the mother can do it
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: One moment...this is emotionally difficult this issue..
    Samuel Okelly: i do not disagree that the baby is dependant on the mother


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