2009.02.23 13:00 - Roads to Being

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane.  The comments are by Stim Morane. 

    {Pema summarized a road to Being, which was then discussed in various ways for the remainder of the session. We often invoked analogies with photos and films.}

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim:)

    Stim Morane: Hey Scathach

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema

    Stim Morane: Hi Pema

    Pema Pera: Hi Scathach and Stim!

    Pema Pera: A while ago, Stim and I were asked to continue our dialogues

    Pema Pera: which we did once a week for a while

    Pema Pera: I'd be happy to pick them up again, but this last week has been really crazy

    Pema Pera: with preparations for the Kira 12th anniversary

    Stim Morane: we can do it another time

    Pema Pera: so I suggest we just talk freely

    Pema Pera: and next week I can try to prepare something a bit more specific

    Scathach Rhiadra: ok, I think everyone will be looking forward to more dialogues from next week:)

    Pema Pera: stim, did you cleaim the chat log already?

    Pema Pera: :)

    Stim Morane: yes, I claimed it

    Pema Pera: thank you!

    Pema Pera: Scathach, do you have any questions or suggestions/observations with respect to Being and related topics?

    Pema Pera: hi Myna!

    Pema Pera: Or you, Myna, questions/ideas about Being?

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Myna:)

    Myna Maven: Hi everyone.

    Wester Kiranov is Online

    Pema Pera: Hi Wester!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wester:0

    Stim Morane: Hi Myna

    Wester Kiranov: hi all

    Stim Morane: Hi Wester

    Scathach Rhiadra: strangely, I've been finding the pheno explorations very helpful in appreciating appearances, and Being

    Pema Pera: :)

    Pema Pera: why do you find that strange? unexpected?

    Pema Pera: Hi Solo!

    Stim Morane: Hi Solo

    Myna Maven: Hey Solo.

    Solobill Laville: (Hi, all!)

    Wester Kiranov: hi solo

    Pema Pera: Hi Gajun, feel free to join us!

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, unecpected,probably because I looked on then as more, hmmm, maybe structured than meditations

    Pema Pera: yes, indeed -- there are so many inroads to Being . . .. .

    Pema Pera: and of course, my way of presenting phenomenology is probably a bit different from that of most philosophers :-)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Solo:)

    Solobill Laville: :)

    Pema Pera: very simply put, phenomena are the ink, and to find Being we have to look at the paper on which the ink is written

    Pema Pera: (oversimplified, more like a hint)

    Pema Pera: or more acurately: our awarness itself is like the paper

    Pema Pera: and Being is what allows both paper and ink to appear

    Pema Pera: (still too simple; another kind of hint)

    Pema Pera: So there are a few steps: from reading words, to looking at letters to looking at ink to finding the paper on which the ink is written

    Pema Pera: In our consciousness we start with meanings and judgements then we go back to the phenomena themselves then to the awareness in which phenomena arise then to Being

    Pema Pera: PaB 101 in a nutshell :-)

    Pema Pera: Stim, where does that oversimplified picture break down, you think?

    Pema Pera: how would you put it?

    Stim Morane: for whom are we raising the issue?

    Stim Morane: People seem to need different kinds of teachings

    Stim Morane: Or is this a summary of the overall path everyone follows?

    Pema Pera: more like a starting point that we can share here

    Pema Pera: after which we can compare notes, to see how different individuals work with this in different ways

    Stim Morane: well, if it works, then I can't squawk

    Solobill Laville: :)

    Pema Pera: Does it makes sense to you, Scathach, as a summary of some of our explorations, in phenomenology as well as PaB, or would you emphasize something else?

    Play as being Watch for mens will ring next in 14 minutes 50 seconds.

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it makes sense to me, awareness has always been a 'stick' for me, both in the pheno explorations and PaB

    Solobill Laville: Hey, Fef

    Myna Maven: Hi Fefonz.

    Wester Kiranov: hi fefonz

    Pema Pera: hi there Fef!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz:0

    Stim Morane: Hi Fefonz

    Fefonz Quan: Hello, Friends

    Pema Pera: A stick, Scathach?

    Solobill Laville: A Sticking point? Or a "stake in the ground"?

    Scathach Rhiadra: like the stick we are looking for in the pheno explorations

    Fefonz Quan ponders...

    Myna Maven: Several weeks back.

    Pema Pera: as something to work with, to become more aware of?

    Pema Pera: yes

    Scathach Rhiadra: what I use to experience the world, so to speak

    Wester Kiranov: like the blind man's stick

    Pema Pera: yes, and do you find it interesting and/or helpful to focus more on it?

    Fefonz Quan: isn't it on some level the only tool we have?

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Pema Pera: maybe :)

    Fefonz Quan: can we experience something unawared of it?

    Pema Pera: "we" may not be able to . . ..

    Wester Kiranov: it depends on what you mean by experience

    Fefonz Quan: yes, maybe it's exactly like the stick, we are totally blind without it

    Fefonz Quan: (maybe i confuse awareness with conscious, sorry if interrupted)

    Pema Pera: Scathach, sorry, I'm curious, o you find it interesting and/or helpful to focus more on it, on the stick? Did it help in some sense?

    Pema Pera: *do

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it defenitely helped:)

    Pema Pera: can you say a bit more about how it helped, what you saw or saw better or saw anew?

    Pema Pera: or how it changed your attitude perhaps, or . . . ?

    Scathach Rhiadra: when I'm not 'aware' I seem to live at the edge of the outside world, if that makes sense, and easily get lost in my perceptions

    Scathach Rhiadra: my projections..

    Scathach Rhiadra: moving into awareness pulls me back a little, and I can observe everything more clearly

    Pema Pera: yes that makes a lot of sense!

    Scathach Rhiadra: I suppose I was surprised that I didn't really drop that method, even though I consciously tried to put aside all judgements when doing the explorations

    Fefonz Quan: which method is it Scath?

    Scathach Rhiadra: moving into awareness, or shifting into it..

    Fefonz Quan: thnaks.

    Pema Pera: shifting into it may be a form of drop the "sitting on the fence" or "on the edge" . . . ..

    Pema Pera: in that sense a kind of dropping of judgments

    Fefonz Quan: In my practice, i feel that i still need awarenes order to drop etc.

    Fefonz Quan: in orer*

    Fefonz Quan: in order*

    Myna Maven: Antonioni's "Blow Up" is a good example.

    Solobill Laville scampers off to google

    Scathach Rhiadra: what is that Myna?

    Myna Maven: Great film, if you've not seen it.

    Scathach Rhiadra: ah

    Myna Maven: The character undergoes much of what we're discussing at the moment.

    Myna Maven: Main charater.

    Fefonz Quan: (and blows up... i hope not :))

    Myna Maven: :)

    Myna Maven: No.

    Fefonz Quan relieved

    Myna Maven: He's a photographer by trade.

    Myna Maven: So, we have a character who spends his life observing. With judgments.

    Myna Maven: He one day takes a picture and finds there may be more to the scene than what he first observed, comprehended.

    Myna Maven: The movie is about his exploring this.

    Pema Pera is quietly leaving, since his RL train is about to enter the tunnel under the Hudson, going into Manhattan . . . ..

    Stim Morane: Bye Pema

    Fefonz Quan: Bye Pema :)

    Pema Pera: c u all soon again

    Myna Maven: Bye Pema.

    Solobill Laville: :)

    Wester Kiranov: bye pema

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema

    Pema Pera is Offline

    Fefonz Quan: better train under the hudson than plane...

    Stim Morane: !

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Myna Maven: Ah! Yes. Better. :)

    Solobill Laville: hehe

    Fefonz Quan: and what he finds, Meyna, or should it spoil the movie?

    Myna Maven: It wouldn't exactly spoil it.

    Myna Maven: One could watch the movie many times over and still find something new.

    Myna Maven: But what he finds is more the matter of the journey.

    Stim Morane: It's really a film about society at that time.

    Myna Maven: One needs to go through the journey.

    Myna Maven: Stim, it is about that as well.

    Myna Maven: But there is more to the film than commenting on the era.

    Stim Morane: Yes, of course.

    Solobill Laville: Just like Saturday Night Fever

    Solobill Laville: ok...maybe not :)

    Myna Maven: I can't say I'm familiar with Saturday Night Fever. I saw it once on television but didn't pay much attention.

    Fefonz Quan: that was about survival Solo ("ah ah, staying aliiiiiive....")

    Solobill Laville: hehe...

    Myna Maven: :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Stim Morane: :)

    Fefonz Quan thinks about photographs and awareness

    Myna Maven: Yes?

    Fefonz Quan: sometimes we tend to see a photograph as neutral, objective

    Fefonz Quan: but even the fact that the photographer pointed his camera to that direction when pushingthe botton is an intention, awareness behind it

    Storm Nordwind is Offline

    Myna Maven: Yes. Sometimes, however, the photograph doesn't capture what the photographer was seeing.

    Myna Maven: That's where the art comes in.

    Myna Maven: Or art and tech knowledge.

    Fefonz Quan: as much as when i just try to watch appearances, no judgment, even teh choice where to look is awareness in action

    Myna Maven: I do know what you're getting at, Fefonz.

    Myna Maven: I was just thinking of my own limitations with photography.

    Storm Nordwind is Online

    Myna Maven: :)

    Solobill Laville: Fef, what about "no choice", just look? :)

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Stim Morane: as a starting point, it would probably be subject to the limitation Fefonz is mentioning.

    Fefonz Quan: the fact that i look at the wall or at the table, kind of push me to the corner of "decider"

    Stim Morane: But it is possible to refine as you go, and that is what makes contemplative practice rich

    Myna Maven: Yes, Stim.

    Stim Morane: Otherwise you would be stuck with intrinsic limitations

    Solobill Laville: Yes, perhaps we should define awareness in this context

    Stim Morane: To put this differently, the outcome of contemplation is not really a result of a process at all.

    Stim Morane: But that is hard to see early on.

    Stim Morane: Anyway, I liked your point about photography, Fefonz.

    Fefonz Quan: hard to see, and frustrated to grasp Stim

    Stim Morane: Patience is a virtue.

    Stim Morane: :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Wester Kiranov: :)

    Solobill Laville: lol

    Fefonz Quan: said to teh walker in the hot desert...

    Stim Morane: As with photos, the mind thinks what it sees is "just there".

    Stim Morane: But in fact, what is seen is codependent with the mind that sees, etc etc.

    Stim Morane: This is hard to notice, but essential.

    Stim Morane: Did any of you have more comments about Pema's little summary of awakening to Being?

    Stim Morane: Here it is again:

    Stim Morane: “In our consciousness we start with meanings and judgements then we go back to the phenomena themselves then to the awareness in which phenomena arise then to Being”

    Stim Morane: This is a direct quote from Pema, not from me.

    Fefonz Quan has a long issue with the last stage, the jump frmo pheno to Being

    Stim Morane: Sorry to be a party-pooper. I know movies are more interesting ...

    Stim Morane: The issue being ...?

    Solobill Laville: :) that's why we're here Stim...

    Scathach Rhiadra: the separation between awareness and Being...

    Fefonz Quan: thanks Scath :)

    Solobill Laville: But here I think definitions are KEY...

    Stim Morane: Oh. It a separation is implied, it should certainly be corrected.

    Fefonz Quan: and the pressumption of being

    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, that was puzzling me:)

    Stim Morane: As I said before, the whole notion of a process is wrong.

    Solobill Laville: Stim, what do take on "the awareness in which phenomena arise"?

    Solobill Laville: *you

    Stim Morane: But this is a necessary error, since it's hard to provide accounts which don't use something of that notion for a while.

    Stim Morane: The awareness in which they arise is the mind I was mentioning previously (re photos etc).

    Stim Morane: Objects > seen objects > the mind that sees > nature of mind and Being

    Fefonz Quan: ah, i thought awareness can be without mind

    Stim Morane: It's a typical sequence, even though it's not really so "sequential"

    Fefonz Quan: it is more basic in a way

    Stim Morane: This is a definitional issue, Fefonz. Yes, awareness does not require consciousness.

    Fefonz Quan: woops, that was a jump

    Stim Morane: But consciousness in the ordinary sense is not coextensive with a more subtle and direct kind of knowing.

    Fefonz Quan: can we slow down alittle ?:)

    Stim Morane: Sorry.

    Fefonz Quan: how awareness without consciousness?

    Stim Morane: Ordinary awareness requires consciousness.

    Stim Morane: But the word "awareness" is used in contemplative traditions to refer to a more subtle and direct way of knowing too, one that is beyond the cognitive, body-based processes that figure in ordinary awareness.

    Wester Kiranov: beyond ordinary time & space?

    Stim Morane: We are forced to press ordinary words into new service, new roles.

    Stim Morane: Yes, outside time and space. But this doesn't mean what people usually think.

    Fefonz Quan: ok, that might make sense for me, like being aware of something we haven't been aware to befrore

    Stim Morane: Yes, right.

    Stim Morane: But here the point is that the awareness itself is different.

    Fefonz Quan: but if you take consciousness out, what's left/

    Fefonz Quan: ?

    Stim Morane: It's always present, but usually obscured by our more gross-level cognitions.

    Stim Morane: There is no need to remove consciousness, just not to use it with such a myopic intensity.

    Stim Morane: It is not our only option.

    Fefonz Quan: (does it help if you don't know what myoic is? ;-) )

    Scathach Rhiadra: is it like primordial awareness?

    Solobill Laville: (near sightedness)

    Stim Morane: Short-sighted, poor-sighted

    Stim Morane: also "heedless"

    Stim Morane: Anyway, one can only take so much of such matters. Back to movies?

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Solobill Laville: Depends on oune's thirst ;)

    Solobill Laville: *one's

    Fefonz Quan: Matrix? ;-)

    Myna Maven: :)

    Stim Morane: uh oh

    Stim Morane: OK, go ahead

    Fefonz Quan: no, didn't really want to go there, for me it's the same issue

    Wester Kiranov: I'll leave now then. see you all later

    Fefonz Quan: :)

    Stim Morane: Bye, Wester! I will be leaving in a minute too.

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wester

    Fefonz Quan: Bye Wester

    Myna Maven: I need to be going too. RL calling.

    Wester Kiranov is Offline

    Stim Morane: Yes.

    Myna Maven: Thanks everyone. Until later!

    Solobill Laville: Bye, Myna

    Myna Maven: Bye. :)

    Stim Morane: Well, I'll duck out ... thanks everyone.

    Fefonz Quan: Bye Myna

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Nyna:)

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim

    Fefonz Quan: Stim, bye

    Solobill Laville: Bye, Stim

    Stim Morane: Bye!

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