2009.02.24 07:00 - Meditation Pains

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Riddle Sideways. The comments are by Riddle Sideways.

    What is it that makes for a 'Good' conversation?
    What ingredients blend together to bake a satisfying meal of words?
    Why is it that sometimes the best of communion comes without much work?

    ah, but then there are the times that no matter how much pre-thought, preparation and careful attention to details just does not produce yesterdays bliss.
    We might repeat all the words and sing all the notes, but not get the feel again.
    Everyday may truely be a holiday, but today might not be like it was on your 16th birthday.

    Our play begins...

    Sonic is waiting as Riddle enters.

    Sonic Moonites: hi
    Riddle Sideways: goood Morning
    Sonic Moonites: morning
    Riddle Sideways: always hard to pick which custion
    Sonic Moonites: ha ha yeah
    Sonic Moonites: how are you today?
    Riddle Sideways: am just waking. first coffee
    Riddle Sideways: had a late night last night
    Sonic Moonites: ok, prob need that cofee then ;)
    Riddle Sideways: a couple factors contributed to extended joy last night
    Riddle Sideways: I have had a cold and not able to sing for a couple weeks
    Riddle Sideways: and my amplifier was breaking down
    Sonic Moonites: :(
    Beware, soon I will go unrestained off onto the parallels of the analog nature of reality as played through a fretless 5-string electric bass guitar. It does not happen today, but someday when the chat sags I shall sing forth the praises of creating reality under continual feedback loops.
    Riddle Sideways: got a new amp and a new bass this weekend
    Sonic Moonites: what sort of things do you sing? i am a musician too
    Riddle Sideways: just had to stay at practice last night and try all sorts of loud noise
    Riddle Sideways: this band is old rock-n-roll
    Riddle Sideways: covers
    Sonic Moonites: oh ok, great
    Riddle Sideways: anything dancable
    Sonic Moonites: good, must be hard on the voice
    Riddle Sideways: I am finally living one of my dreams of being a back-up singer
    Sonic Moonites: wow, thats really great stuff, im very pleased for you
    Riddle Sideways: swaying in the back going... oo, oo, oo
    Sonic Moonites: ha ha, yeah backing singers have the fun job
    Riddle Sideways: well, it can't be because of my looks
    Yeah, I'd be dressed in that tighter then skin black mini dress. Tall black boots with 4 inch heels. Hair poofed so high.  And my adoring fans screaming, hey that's an ugly old guy in drag.
    Riddle Sideways: Can't help the shape I'm in. my legs are shinny and my arms are thin.
    Riddle Sideways: don't ask me what I think of you...
    Riddle Sideways: might not give the answer that you want me to :)
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, had to sing that
    Sonic Moonites: ha ha no go on, no worries about my avatar!
    Sonic Moonites: ;)
    Riddle Sideways: what do you play?
    Sonic Moonites: i play guitar, and piano and write songs
    Riddle Sideways: what style/ genre
    Sonic Moonites: hmm probably folk/pop stuff
    Sonic Moonites: its pretty fun
    Again today, the master recorder is saying there is no guardian so it is waiting a half-hour for one.
    Sonic Moonites: hmm strange, im not the guardian on call today
    Riddle Sideways: I am, but the recorder says not
    Sonic Moonites: oh ok, please to meet you by the way, i havent been on here for a while
    Riddle Sideways: It was doing this saturday / sunday too
    Riddle Sideways: was going to get around to that
    Sonic Moonites: ;)
    Riddle Sideways: have we met?
    Sonic Moonites: i dont think so, i have had a few months off, RL been very hectic
    Riddle Sideways: yes, it is
    Sonic Moonites: hi Solobill
    Riddle Sideways: hi bill
    Bill joins us, we make the fountain go away and get into a small circle.
    Solobill Laville: Hello Sonic, Riddle! :)
    Sonic Moonites: but nice to meet you riddle
    Solobill Laville wonders how to balance this circle...
    Riddle Sideways: shall we get smaller
    Solobill Laville: Like a pro, Riddle :)
    Sonic Moonites: ;)
    Riddle Sideways: ha... TY
    ok, down to topic.
    Sonic Moonites: so how is the 9sec working out?
    Solobill Laville: For me, I use at somewhat ad hoc lately, but as a tool to reinforce my sitting practice
    Solobill Laville: "wiping the windshield clean" :)
    Sonic Moonites: great nice analogy
    Sonic Moonites: can feel like that
    and intro the subject at hand.
    Sonic Moonites: yes ive been thinking how strange it is that sometimes it is easy to embrace the 9 sec(or any meditation) and other days it feels like a struggle
    Solobill Laville: Yes, I remember the solunar (?) tables for fishing when I was a kid...seems akin to that!
    Riddle Sideways: and the waves that those occasions come and go in
    Solobill Laville: Exactly
    Sonic Moonites: i think perhaps the hard sessions are the most useful in a way
    Solobill Laville: I think that is where patience, persistence, being gentle with yourself are all good things
    Solobill Laville: True, Sonic
    Solobill Laville: I've read several passages where it was said that trouble "sitting" is a great thing
    Sonic Moonites: yes
    Solobill Laville: It is easy to get comfortable...oh, yes it is...
    Riddle Sideways: quite a few lessons there
    Sonic Moonites: i have recently been reading about running as meditation
    Sonic Moonites: and he repeatedly says the hard runs are the best for training awareness, forcing yourself back to the breath(or whatever your focus)
    Sonic Moonites: they pull you into the present
    No matter the practice.  There are the same parts.
    Solobill Laville: Yes
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Solobill Laville: A few years back I was much more of an outdoorsman
    Solobill Laville: And had climbed a few mountains out west
    Solobill Laville: that is so true for that
    Sonic Moonites: great, yeah the exercise and the view always transpire to bring about a change in concioussness
    Riddle Sideways: and I rode a lot of bicycle
    Solobill Laville: It is interesting about how the physiology plays into all that...blood sugar, etc
    Sonic Moonites: perhaps exercise and movement is something we should talk more of in relation to being, def solobill
    Riddle Sideways: and breath/ breathing
    Sonic Moonites: hi susi
    Riddle Sideways: hi Susi
    Susi enters and we have things going.
    Solobill Laville: Yes, and I'd think that a yogic perspective would focus a lot more on that
    Susi Alcott: hi Riddle
    Susi Alcott: hi Solo
    Solobill Laville: Heya, Susi :) _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: hi Sonic
    Sonic Moonites: certainly, interesting that its easy to get carried away that "being" is the mind not so much the body, for me anyway
    Sonic Moonites: perhaps a result of our conditioning
    Now with Fael joining we can really get some points of view.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Riddle, Susi, Solo, Sonic :)
    Susi Alcott: hi Fael
    Sonic Moonites: hi fael long time no see
    Solobill Laville: Hi, Fael! :)
    Riddle Sideways: and perhaps
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Fael
    Fael Illyar: Yes, long time, Sonic :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Riddle Sideways: might have to make circle bigger soon
    No, the small circle is just right.
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Sonic, when I sit one of the first things I do is place my "mind" in my belly, to ease that separation of brain=mind
    Sonic Moonites: yeah good idea solobill, will try that
    Susi Alcott: the most urgent chakra for self is on belly
    Sonic Moonites: thats one of the reasons i find running so useful for meditations, the movement and sense of the body makes it harder not be aware of
    Riddle Sideways: and when I stand, walk, go.. I try to get my mind back into "where was I going"
    Solobill Laville: Yes, Susi :), I think we've discussed that before
    Sonic Moonites: especially as SL makes us even further away from our RL bodies
    Sonic Moonites: easy to disconnect
    Solobill Laville nods
    Riddle Sideways: many times we a talking Being, all, a unitied everything
    Riddle Sideways: yet get into our minds,
    Riddle Sideways: or one practice
    Riddle Sideways: or ...
    Riddle Sideways: then we are doing one thing
    Riddle Sideways: and discover all is there
    Sonic Moonites: nods
    Solobill Laville: There is a lot in that too ;)
    Riddle Sideways: imagines running up a long hill. Breathing is very hard. going on is hard
    Riddle Sideways: yet there can be a stillness
    Sonic Moonites: difficult, running creates a kind of pain(at least for me, im not to good at it)! and pain usually distracts me from stillness, however pain also makes me more aware of being
    Susi Alcott: Sonic Moonites: easy to disconnect
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that can be helped with just walking.
    Riddle Sideways: and hard to re-connect
    Susi Alcott: I feel need to ask if that really is easy or only illusion ?
    very sorry, but this question gets lost in the flow here.  I am not sure of an answer and wish to know now.
    Solobill Laville: Have you ever "thrown yourself into" the pain?
    Solobill Laville: If ya get my meaning...
    Fael Illyar: you mean "be the pain", so to speak?
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Susi Alcott: do you Solo ask that from me ?
    Sonic Moonites: yes perhaps susi.....solobill - eventually the pain turns into an awareness and isnt like pain anymore, whether it is"throwing myself in" or trying to totally experience i dont know
    Fael Illyar: take the pain as part of you, instead of rejecting it?
    Solobill Laville: sorry, Susi, no Sonic :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: yes, my parallel these days is in sitting with it...
    Solobill Laville: It is kinda like a bell curve
    Solobill Laville: the pain arises
    Solobill Laville: I make the step to "be it"
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sam :)
    Solobill Laville: and it rolls down the back side of the bell curve
    Sam enters and moves in to join a circle.  We still have one empty cushion which has been some peoples point before.
    Sonic Moonites: hi sam
    Sonic Moonites: yes solobill
    Solobill Laville: Hello, Sam! :)
    Susi Alcott: hi Sam
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Sam
    Samuel Okelly:
    Samuel Okelly: ( @ @ )
    Samuel Okelly: ...o00o.(_).o00o...
    Samuel Okelly: (( HELLO EVERY1! ! ! ! ))
    Samuel Okelly:
    Riddle Sideways: please come join the circle
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Riddle Sideways: bill, could you repeat, reword,expand
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Riddle Sideways: not sure I understood
    I had been re-reading and was lost a little over which points were which.
    Solobill Laville: Oof! ;) OK...
    Solobill Laville: I think it comes back to what Sonic said earlier...
    Solobill Laville: [7:15] Sonic Moonites: yes ive been thinking how strange it is that sometimes it is easy to embrace the 9 sec(or any meditation) and other days it feels like a struggle
    Solobill Laville: And perhaps, one form of that struggle is pain (there are others too)
    Solobill Laville: So, in terms of pain, I definately get it in my knees when I sit
    Solobill Laville: As the pain arises...I make the effort to "become one with it"
    Sonic Moonites: yes, but to avoid or ignore it is not the idea...you have to accept it as everything else
    Solobill Laville: Which is to say - not see it as something separate from myself, in which "I" am a victim -
    Sonic Moonites: yes achieve that unity

    Samuel Okelly: I think it is true to say that meditation requires much of us and not just “time�
    Solobill Laville: YES - that is the key
    Solobill Laville: Right, Sam, time in that sense is one of the other challenges
    Solobill Laville: Amazingly, when you become one with it, it disarms the pain.
    Solobill Laville: and rolls the backside of that bell curve
    Riddle Sideways: as with most anything
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Sonic Moonites: interesting
    Samuel Okelly: i personally have much “Time� but meditation is not always possible
    Susi Alcott: many things go away surrendering to it
    Solobill Laville thinks that the word "surrender" has been keen on his mind lately...
    Riddle Sideways: and is easy (at first) to sit comfy or run a little or be still
    Riddle Sideways: after a few minutes it gets harder
    Riddle Sideways: this cat sitting on my lap
    Riddle Sideways: for example
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Riddle Sideways: 5 minutes ago was very nice
    Sonic Moonites: ha ha
    Riddle Sideways: is now starting to shut off circulation to legs
    Solobill Laville wonders if we're talking about "The Zone"??
    Samuel Okelly: clarity of mind and thought does not always arrive easily I find
    Sonic Moonites: yes perhaps it is "the zone", its all part and parcel of the same thing i think
    Solobill Laville: Right, Sam!
    Solobill Laville: In fact, quite the opposite usually
    Sonic Moonites: yes clarity seems always difficult to achieve for me
    Need a photo here, but didn't take one.  Fael put one of the greatest hugs of all time around Susi's neck.
    Susi Alcott: >Fael _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: What a great animation Fael
    Solobill Laville: I was sharing with Wol the other day
    Solobill Laville: That, even though I've been sitting regulary
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
    Solobill Laville: for several years now, it still takes as long as 10 minutes to "settle" sometimes
    Solobill Laville: And sometimes, not at all :)
    Sonic Moonites: wow, 10mins is still great, sometimes i still abandon a practice if it just isn't working (even though its probably the best thing for me!)
    Sonic Moonites: well i use working lightly
    Solobill Laville: (Keep with it Sonic)
    Fael Illyar does not understand this "not working". Could you explain a bit more?
    Good point.  Most of us understood an innocent phrase about this "not working".  What are we really saying. Do we mean it THAT way?  Should watch those little automatic phrases that slip out.
    Samuel Okelly: just as we can not be spontaneous on demand, it is not alwasy possible )
    Solobill Laville: Yes, please :)
    Riddle Sideways: then I started noticing that those easy/difficult came in phases and related to everything else
    Riddle Sideways: come in cycles
    Riddle Sideways: very interesting to watch
    Solobill Laville: Totally agree, Riddle
    Sonic Moonites: yes sorry not working was a bad term to use.....i guess sometimes the mood isnt right, and/or, there is something practical i feel the need to do something about which distracts my meditation
    Riddle Sideways: but must not fight or disagree what them
    Solobill Laville: There are some schools that say, "just sit" :) that is enough
    Solobill Laville: Even when it "isn't working"
    Sonic Moonites: nods
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Sonic Moonites: :)
    Riddle Sideways: no matter the words... we all understand
    Having misunderstood, I am thinking about the use of any of 30 phrases that we all would have used.  Fael and Sonic are more on track about it. What is this goal oriented ness to our meditation. Do we have a quota to fulfill?  Is there a monthly production schedule? 
    Not having thought this way, I need to ask you gentle reader. Do you really have a goal to reach today.  is it like going to the gym for 3 reps of 20 situps.  If enlightenment has not shone in us within 10 minutes has this sitting been a failure?  I point at no one, but please to ask yourself if you think this way.

    Fael Illyar: saying "it does not work" kind of implies you have a goal doing it.
    Sonic Moonites: i still have perhaps not shaken the notion that my meditation has goals and can or cant work...i understand that being has different implications, but my upbringing and culture make it extreamly difficult to let go of thing like that
    Susi Alcott: sorry
    Susi Alcott: wrong click
    Samuel Okelly: prayerful reflective mediation is goal driven for me
    Susi Alcott: sorry Fael
    Susi Alcott: ment to tell that I need to stand up
    Susi Alcott: that I got the call to other sim
    Solobill Laville: Well, there can be immediate and tangible goals
    Susi Alcott: wishing all good to all here; gotta go
    Funny / sad / wonderful / amazing / real / awe-moment / how true / unreal / great movie scene happens.  Susi stands to leave. Fael falls on face as greatest loving hug is broken away.
    Fael Illyar: See you later Susi :)
    Samuel Okelly: tc susi
    Solobill Laville: Stress reduction, increased concentration, "object"-based meditations, etc
    Sonic Moonites: by susi nice to meet you
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: OK, bye, Susi :)
    Riddle Sideways: ok susi
    Solobill Laville: To Fael's point though, (I think) the danger is Big Goal, which can be very counter-productive
    Riddle Sideways: even without "goals" there are times when the feeling of "this is not working" happens
    Riddle Sideways: ha "Meditation Happens" bumper sticker
    Solobill Laville: :) - need that
    yes, need that bumper sticker :)
    yes, need to be aware.

    Fael Illyar: It's not that the goals are bad as such. But it's important to be aware of them and realize that it might not be the only reason for meditation.
    Solobill Laville: right
    Riddle Sideways: right, to know that I have (or not) a goal today
    Sonic Moonites: perhaps goals can exist outside of meditation but not in them, if that makes sense
    Riddle Sideways: and be at peace with those facts
    Solobill Laville: As a practical thing; when I have those instances
    Samuel Okelly: for me it is represents a means to accessing revealed truths
    Solobill Laville: I just sit and have faith that sitting is good
    Samuel Okelly: or at least opening myself to the possibility of them
    Solobill Laville: Usually I will settle after about 10 minutes or so
    Solobill Laville: Oh, absolutely, Sam :)
    Sonic Moonites: i also have to go now
    Fael Illyar: See you later Sonic :)
    Sonic, having seeded our conversation, leaves.
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Sonic
    Samuel Okelly: bye son
    Sonic Moonites: but great talking again, nice to meet you all
    Riddle Sideways: yes, I note the 'whatever' and be with it for a while.... it usually leaves then
    Riddle Sideways: ok thanks Sonic
    Sonic Moonites: bye
    Riddle Sideways: stray thoughts, pain, kitties, etc. come into my sitting, running, showering, life
    Riddle Sideways: we view them
    Riddle Sideways: give them their moment
    Riddle Sideways: and attention
    Riddle Sideways: then they get replaced by next thought
    Riddle Sideways: if we (oh sorry, I am a geminii and talk in plurals) give not much, but apporpriate attentions
    Riddle Sideways: to each
    Riddle Sideways: they are okay
    Fael Illyar: thoughts are like tireless messengers that will keep trying until you've read the message.
    Riddle Sideways: not read a message and it comes back
    Riddle Sideways: most times, read it and it goes
    Solobill Laville: Stim has me working on a "positivistic" (my word) appreciation of them, before I let them go...very interesting
    Fael Illyar: the "shooting the messenger" analogy applies quite well here... except they can't be killed and will come back.
    Riddle Sideways: need to promise it that you'll do it, give it, react to it (later)
    Riddle Sideways: and not to lie
    Solobill Laville: Yes, that is dangerous too because it is like trying to move a mountain by kicking it -> Fael :)
    Samuel Okelly: thansk for the chat folsk but i need to leave now :(
    Solobill Laville: Instead of "shooting the messenger" it is more akin to waving at the messages
    Fael Illyar: See you later Sam :)
    Solobill Laville: k, thanks Sam, bye :)
    Riddle Sideways: putting the "need to feed kitties" note into the in-basket wight not be enough
    Riddle Sideways: ok, bye Sam
    Samuel Okelly:
    Samuel Okelly: †
    Samuel Okelly: † (( take care everyone )) †
    Samuel Okelly: †
    Samuel Okelly:
    Riddle Sideways: oooo, how did he do those arrows?
    Fael Illyar: it's a gesture I think
    Sam leaves. His parting message had up arrow characters. I see here that record, log, link, paste then copy and paste here has changed them to other mime type characters.
    Riddle Sideways: oh well, park that thought
    Solobill Laville: Is it a gesture (chat) replace thing?
    Solobill Laville: ah, yes
    Riddle Sideways: as example.... I will someday come back and learn that stuff
    Riddle Sideways: really I will
    Riddle Sideways: promise self
    Riddle Sideways: now I can go on
    Solobill Laville: oh, man, have someone do it for you Riddle! Other fish to fry :)
    Fael Illyar prefers noting that she'll come back and learn it if proves necessary :)
    Solobill Laville: You know, though, I want to do that for Scathach's name...so I'll try to figure it out later :)
    Riddle Sideways: ?
    Fael Illyar: (or if I otherwise feel like doing it)
    Solobill Laville: You replace a symbol - like "/sca" with "Scathach" somehow, in the gestures area...is what I mean
    Fael Illyar: Ah, gestures don't replace strings, they're standalone ones.
    Riddle Sideways: if I blow off that idea or tell it that I will (but it knows I am lying) then itcomes back to hauht
    Riddle Sideways: haunt
    Solobill Laville: ah, thanks, Fael
    Fael Illyar: only work if they're on the chatline by themselves.
    Solobill Laville: Is that from some dense of "duty" to accomplish some task or somesuch thing, Riddle?
    Solobill Laville: Or need to release, etc??
    Riddle Sideways: not sure
    Solobill Laville nods
    Solobill Laville: not sure is good :)
    Fael Illyar: that's why I promise mine that I'l do it if necessary. :)
    Riddle Sideways: :)
    Riddle Sideways: good point
    Fael Illyar: doesn't restrict future choices to certain ones.

    Riddle Sideways: and now for something completely different
    Riddle Sideways: why is the recorder
    Riddle Sideways: saying no gaurdian
    Fael Illyar: That is a good question. It looks like Wol updated the script recently.
    Riddle Sideways: it seems to be recording
    Fael Illyar: let me check if there's anything in the database
    Solobill Laville: Looks like you can claim it, Riddle
    Riddle Sideways: yep
    Fael Illyar: yep, it did record it
    Riddle Sideways: just like the software I have to go now to work on
    Solobill Laville: That message it seems may be a bit off...
    Riddle Sideways: it works correctly, but reports that it isn't
    Solobill Laville: right
    Fael Illyar: yep :)
    Riddle Sideways: my users hate that
    Solobill Laville: hehe
    Solobill Laville: why?? ;)
    Fael Illyar: haha, I can understand that sentiment :)
    Fael Illyar: makes them worry for nothing ;)
    Riddle Sideways: yes, I currently have 20+ emails saying that it says it is not workking
    Riddle Sideways: yet the files are correct
    Riddle Sideways: the flights are happening correctly
    Solobill Laville: Oof, too bad there wasn't only one reviewer...
    Solobill Laville: Can be off the record for a sec?
    Fael Illyar: Well, if the guardian is willing to remove those lines :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, let's cut the log now, then you can be off the record :)
    Riddle Sideways: ok
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